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How Much Are You Willing To Pay For The Orx

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30 minutes ago, Alluminati said:

I think they are scared to venture from the path they carved with the Deus.

The Orx should of had a wired coil and been less money.

I would pay $600 Canadian for one. ($450 US dollars)

I think they should have just offered it for less money period. 

Using a wired coil means that they would have had to move the "brains" to the control unit (it presently exists in the coil), would have made the existing Deus coils incompatible, and they would have had to have sunk Research and Development dollars into the new coil designs and control packages which would have driven up hardware and software costs in the end. 

I think the wireless coil paradigm of Deus is an important selling point, keeps weight down, and allows re-use of Deus coils which might make ORX an attractive less expensive alternative backup unit to their Deus units.  But again, they missed the mark on their MAP.

They were facing a dilemma similar to ML.  How do you introduce a new, affordable mid-range detector to challenge the market place without obsoleting your current "high end" detector line.  I think ML figured out a way to thread that needle with Equinox and a little marketing (along the lines of touting how Multi IQ is a game changer yet FBS still brings something to the table that Multi IQ does not, um OK).

XP took a different tack.  They made a less capable detector (solely via software limitations) with the same basic hardware s Deus (save for a lighter stem and rod and less capable wireless headphones) but could not bring themselves to lower the price enough to be competitive for fear of having to also lower the Deus cash cow price. 

Lets face it. With the hardware being basically the same, limiting the software you provide on the unit should not inherently limit the per unit cost (i.e., unit cost to manufacture is not driven by the software on the unit and basically minimal R&D was invested).  That is also why I really scratch my head on the price delta between 600 and 800.  That price delta is not driven by the lesser software driven capability of the 600.  It is driven simply by the 800 wireless hardware (BT headphones and WM wireless receive module) the 600 package lacks.  The detector hardware package is basically exactly the same for both 600 and 800 save for the LCD screen pattern and the extra "user profile" button.

However, I wouldn't mind getting an ORX at the right price point as a cheaper backup to the Deus, but it is also missing just a couple "essential" features IMO.  Namely, pitch audio and audio response adjustments that enable adjustment on the modulation of the tone ID audio with depth (otherwise, you have a target size/depth modulation problem similar to what Equinox has now).

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That's the thing, why would they compete against themselves even if it does save RnD?

A cheaper wired machine with the Deus performance would do better in a 2nd and 3rd world market IMO which is the target market. Incidentally it would make it more palatable in north America, UK and EU too.

It doesn't have to be wired mind you, I'm just going by the old assumptions that it is cheaper, nowadays a couple little IC's might actually be cheaper then 6' of good copper wire. lol

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16 minutes ago, Alluminati said:

That's the thing, why would they compete against themselves even if it does save RnD?

A cheaper wired machine with the Deus performance would do better in a 2nd and 3rd world market IMO which is the target market. Incidentally it would make it more palatable in north America, UK and EU too.

It doesn't have to be wired mind you, I'm just going by the old assumptions that it is cheaper, nowadays a couple little IC's might actually be cheaper then 6' of good copper wire. lol

Yeah, I agree with you that wired is an easier, less costly approach as a starting point, but if you've already got the bugs worked out with wireless approach, why bother.  Those wireless chips are inexpensive.  Complete do it yourself configurable Raspberry PI microprocessor units with built in WIFI and Bluetooth modules go for about $35 US.  The more I think about his the more I think, why bother with the ORX at all XP.  Just lower the price on the Deus and be done with it (provide the less capable ORX wireless headphones with Deus if you want a tangible reason to lower the Deus price further).  Note that at present the ORX wireless headphones do not work with the Deus controller and the Deus wireless headphones will not work with the ORX controller.  SMH.

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I think a $499 price for it would have been more ball park for what it is. $899 is too high for what I would spend on one.  Then again I wasn't really wow'ed by the Deus and think it should be more of that $700-800 price range for the full package, remote, headphones, and your choice of coil.  I would like to retry one with a HF or X35 coil with the higher frequencies.  Was supposed to get to borrow one with HF coil from a buddy but haven't yet.  

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13 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

The XP HF 9.5" x 5"elliptical really holds its own and typically exceeds the performance of the 6" Equinox coil in restricted swing situations and mineralized ground when hunting relics.  I know because I have tested them head to under the same brutal iron and mineralized soil conditions.  I call the XP HF elliptical the "laser pointer" because the combination of 28 khz operation and lightning fast Deus/ORX recovery really make the coil a killer in trash pits, around logs, and in hot soil.  The Equinox 6" coil has no real advantage over the 9.5" HF elliptical and honestly I wish ML would have come out with an elliptical similar in dimension to the XP offering that would provide the restricted swing advantage and separation ability of the narrow elliptical shape with the ground coverage afforded by the 9.5" long dimension.  A missed opportunity by ML in my opinion.  

Since Orx is aimed at prospectors I should point out prospectors want small coils because they are physically smaller and fit into crevices, nooks, and crannies where larger coils can’t go. They are also hotter on the tiniest stuff. It’s not a separation issue. The lack of a small coil that every competing nugget detector offers is a pretty big ding against the Orx from a prospecting perspective. My Gold Bug 2, the 3.5” x 6.5” was practically glued to the machine.

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3 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Since Orx is aimed at prospectors I should point out prospectors want small coils because they are physically smaller and fit into crevices, nooks, and crannies where larger coils can’t go. They are also hotter on the tiniest stuff. It’s not a separation issue. The lack of a small coil that every competing nugget detector offers is a pretty big ding against the Orx from a prospecting perspective. My Gold Bug 2, the 3.5” x 6.5” was practically glued to the machine.

Thanks, Steve.  I mispoke and should have clarified that what I meant by separation is swing separation or more correctly swing "clearance" (i.e., the ability to swing the coil side to side in tight spots).  In that respect, the Deus elliptical coil actually has slightly more swing clearance with the 5" width coil than the Equinox 6" diameter round coil.  Agree, a shorter coil would allow for more crevice clearance.  Obviously, separation is fixed on a DD by the receive/transmit coil overlap width at the center of the coil.

ORX may be geared toward the prospector, but ORX or not, XP has always promoted the HF coils as primarily prospecting coils (as you know, ORX uses the same Gold Field program as Deus, so there is nothing obviously superior about the ORX vs. Deus as far as prospecting is concerned).  If that is the case I wonder why XP has not pursued a coil form factor smaller than 9.5x5" for prospecting?  It has been almost 2 years since the original release of the HF coils.  I wonder if they are out of touch with what the prospector's need or want or whether prospecting is actually driving a significant percentage of Deus/ORX/Depar sales considering the limited coil offerings.

Welcome your thoughts on this.

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Hi Chase, I was not talking Equinox really just Orx versus other prospecting detectors. A roughly 4" x 6" coil is standard for small nugget machines. I agree about more coils for Equinox, but again, back to Orx.

I see nothing Orx does better for gold prospecting versus Deus, which is why I started the prospecting thread asking what other prospectors think. Just one glaring example - no ground tracking on Orx? Not a big deal per se but I would have not left a feature like that off a gold prospecting machine. And no ground notch? It appears to me that XP is not will to let Orx be absolutely superior to Deus even when it comes to gold prospecting. A Deus with a HF coil appears to be a better gold prospecting machine than an Orx, and that is sure not how I would have done it. Just the opposite. I would have made sure Orx matched Deus in every way for gold prospecting, then made it even more compelling. This should not even be a question, and the fact it is does not help.

I visit most all the major gold prospecting forums regularly, and the simple fact is nobody but me is discussing the Equinox in the gold prospecting world. Almost zero mention, and the lack of positive responses on my prospecting thread is telling.

I actually like the machine and am not trying to beat up on it. Mostly I am just sort of puzzled by the whole thing. The big thing is XP adding so much capability to the Deus starter bundle that it is a solid question whether an XP Deus Starter Bundle at $799 is a better value than an Orx at $899. If XP had not added the extra menu functions to the headphones it would be an easy question.

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On 1/10/2019 at 2:24 PM, Steve Herschbach said:

Just one glaring example - no ground tracking on Orx? Not a big deal per se but I would have not left a feature like that off a gold prospecting machine. And no ground notch?

Steve.  Note that I am almost certain that this is actually no different than Deus.  Tracking and Ground notch do not appear to be engaged when using the equivalent Gold Field program on the Deus from what I can tell. Gold Field uses a unique (to Gold Field) ground grab method using the pinpoint button.  According to the manual, you must periodically redo the ground grab if you encounter instability (implying tracking does not come into play). 

I too thought tracking and ground notch worked in gold field mode because you can actually access the settings while in gold field, but from what I can tell based on the manual, they don't do anything (similar to iron volume not actually doing anything in full tones even though you can change the setting).  I still have to verify this with XP or Andy Sabisch but that was something I just recently realized as I was comparing Deus and ORX specs while digging deep into the Deus user manual.

If true, then it seems that ORX almost exactly duplicates the Deus Gold Field functionality but adds a stripped down/basic version of the "tone ID" Deus modes for traditional target detecting.

Now why they didn't implement Deus-like tracking in the ORX coin/relic modes is indeed a mystery, although for those not familiar with Deus, I suppose it results in a simpler interface as the ground balance ground grab method is the same between the modes.

Your observations that no one is talking about Equinox from a prospecting perspective astounds me.

And I am as mystified as you are regarding XP's strategy on ORX.

I will post back if I am wrong about tracking GB in Gold Field on Deus.

 

Well it turns out I am wrong on this, after consulting the first edition of the Deus Handbook (the Deus User's manual is ambiguous on this).  Tracking and Ground Notch DO work while in gold field mode as long as mineralization based variations in ground phase are not "too severe".  I have not confirmed that anything has changed since they added the ground sensitivity adjustment starting with Version 4.2 of the Deus software, but there you have it.  Setting the record straight.

 

 

 

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Good info Chase. The non-Goldfield modes can be used effectively as gold prospecting alternatives, and in fact I was pretty pleased with GM Power for finding small gold nuggets.

XP has never had a name in the prospecting world so I am not surprised at the lack of interest. Prospectors also tend to be hardcore old school types who like knobs, replaceable batteries, and robust physical designs. Given that the U.S. and Australian markets are already heavily saturated with nugget detectors it is getting very hard for newcomers to stir up interest. The Makro Gold Kruzer also made no waves and outside this website even the White's Goldmaster 24K has got little notice. It's notable enough I posted about it here.

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Hi Steve,

you asked about differences in the gold modes on the Orx and Deus.

I was wondering if the ground balance procedure for the Orx in its two gold modes is the same as the procedure for the Deus in Gold Field?

I am still not comfortable with the peculiar ground balancing of the Deus in Gold Field. I guess I need to keep practicing.

 

Jeff

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