The New Coils For The 23 And 7

[Jonathan Porter]

4 hours ago, jasong said:

At a time when the trend is clearly towards having less detectors and one machine that does the job of a few detectors at once, that is a surprising statement to hear since I felt Minelab were actually the ones sort of pioneering this one detector fits all approach better than anyone else with the Equinox release. And I assumed the GPZ was the same way, one machine to combine performance of older PI's, SDC, and newer ZVT all in one package for those willing to pay for it. Grab one machine and go. Or at least it seemed that was the future promise.

Buying an SDC doesn't do anything to solve the weight issue with the existing ML coils either, which as we've seen with the X Coils is a problem which is possible to be addressed if desired. An SDC also doesn't have nearly the configurability with settings as the GPZ does so why would we want to give that up?

I mean, if Ford told people who just bought a new F250 that they couldn't put a offroad suspension or a supercharger in and had to buy a brand new Ford Raptor built for that purpose from the factory instead, yet couldn't tow a backhoe, couldn't take a yard of dirt in the bed, or carry a bunk of lumber, they would probably be laughed out of the truck market. No one wants two or more trucks when the one they have could work better than both combined and they already spent a song to get it.

Am I wrong or is there really a compelling reason that it's better for the customer to go buy a new SDC instead of a new coil that effectively makes their GPZ do the same task? If Minelab made the coil themselves the IP issue wouldn't exist either, especially if they made a better product, for cheaper and killed the competition through capitalism and not jurisprudence. I just don't see any actual reason buying an SDC would be a better choice, especially when ML could be making lighter 14x13's and 19's on top of it if they came out with a new line of coils.

I do see how it's better for Minelab though, especially if SDC sales are faltering. Am I off base? If so, why not just make a coil? I feel like there is some piece of the puzzle missing here...

There is a very famous saying about the word “Assume”, everyone is assuming the aftermarket coils are as good as the ML offerings. But of course if it is supplied as an aftermarket option there is a lot of latitude if the coil is not up to standard (especially in advertising and promotion) and as has been demonstrated over the years ML are more often than not blamed if there is a supposed problem anyway!!

The Equinox is a totally different animal compared to the GPZ or SDC so is not a good example, just like the CTX is in a league all its own. The Equinox just does a good job of a lot of things all at once so is in my opinion a VERY good cross over unit, however in gold ground it does not stack up against MPF or ZVT, not even close.

If you factor in the price of aftermarket and then add the expense of a sacrificial coil either via second hand purchase or cannibalising an existing very expensive coil the price is getting up there for springing for an SDC or on par if you go used!

I understand the need for smaller coils on the GPZ, I also understand the need for less weight, but you have to ask yourself the question “why have Minelab done it this way?, and “why haven’t the major aftermarket guys not done anything by now?” The success for the GPZ should speak for itself I would think. If you want lighter and smaller then I’ve suggested the options available right now without the risk of voiding warranty or damaging your machine.

Not trying to be a kill joy, just that assumptions can be very misleading and expensive when reality bites!

JP

 

[jasong]

Personally I am not assuming anything about the aftermarket coils yet. That's why a few days ago I was asking specifically for objective tests, numbers, and comparisons to the stock coil from the testers, and not just subjective tests finding missed nuggets in old patches which can happen with any machine no matter how good someone is. It happens to all of us.

3 hours ago, Jonathan Porter said:

...but you have to ask yourself the question “why have Minelab done it this way?, and “why haven’t the major aftermarket guys not done anything by now?” The success for the GPZ should speak for itself I would think. If you want lighter and smaller then I’ve suggested the options available right now without the risk of voiding warranty or damaging your machine.

Actually I think Minelab kinda has to tell us, because I'm definitely not in a position to answer those questions. Do you know why the major aftermarket guys haven't done anything by now? 

If you encourage me to ask myself rhetorical questions then I can certainly come up with rhetorical situations aplenty.

1.) IP prevents legit 3rd parties from developing a coil and Minelab would rather sell SDC backlogs than retool their factory to make a new coil for a product that probably didn't sell a lot of units in the wider scope of things globally, when compared to say an Equinox which is more profitable to create accessories for.

And/Or

2.) The X Coil performance is due to a design that allows higher sensitivity and less material (lower resistance or inductance thus less wire weight?) that drives the GPZ to operate outside of FCC specs that Minelab must comply with but a Russian random company can skirt around. Thus Minelab finds itself on an uneven playing field where any product it makes will by nature underperform the 3rd party coils who do not have to comply with FCC regulations and so will lose money by offering their own coils which cannot compete with a 3rd party?

2b.) The electronics not being designed for this lower resistance/inductance/whatever may fail eventually. But we won't know because ML probably has no desire to waste resources testing that scenario if they have no intention of honoring the warranty.

2c.) Or they already know what potentially happens running coils like these because they in fact did make their own, and found it caused issues. Thus they know these X coils may cause issues too.

I mean, I could sit here and hypothesize elaborate scenarios all night if encouraged like that. ?

[Norvic]

1 hour ago, jasong said:

Personally I am not assuming anything about the aftermarket coils yet. That's why a few days ago I was asking specifically for objective tests, numbers, and comparisons to the stock coil from the testers, and not just subjective tests finding missed nuggets in old patches which can happen with any machine no matter how good someone is. It happens to all of us.

Hmmm, as an early adoptee of detector & coil technology that has lead to early substantial finds, tis the above that makes one consider ones unselfishness and perhaps just keep to oneself and enjoy the success that often comes with being an early adoptee and of course the let downs when they are not productive products.

But your right in hypothesizing all different kinds of scenarios as to why ML acts like ML does etc etc, me I just like the standard of life their advances have given me, but encourage and support aftermarket improvements, simply because time has shown some not all of them have been top producers. 

"Av a go" and take the plunge, be positive, early adoptees are grinners.?

[goldwright]

If you can plug an after market coil into a GPX and not void warranty why not the GPZ.  Minelab made the GPX detectors for many years and did not develop coil technology, the aftermarket boys did.  If Minelab dont want to make coils for the GPZ then let the aftermarket boys get the chips and make them simple.  I realise its a difficult area to run a viable business but costumers are always right.

[Steve Herschbach]

My comment had nothing to do with you JW. You seem very concerned that people think you are not happy with Minelab. I am not sure what that’s all about, but again, my comment was not aimed at you. I’m honestly am no longer involved in any of this anyway and so will leave it all for the rest of you to sort out. The discussion here has convinced me my desires are for naught, and so I will export my data out of XChange and delete the program from my computer as I won't need it going forward. I am satisfied now with what the VLF world has to offer and will focus my efforts on getting better performance in the under 4 lb, under $2K GBPI category from anyone willing to build them. I will let you guys work on "max performance" while I advocate for detectors "for the rest of us". It's the only area left in detecting where I see easy low hanging fruit left to pick for the company smart enough to exploit it.

[Andyy]

15 hours ago, Rob Allison said:

I'm sure everyone would love to own a SDC for backpacking, exploring and finding the small gold and then having a $8000 GPZ 7000 to punch down deep.  That being said, that investment is nearly $12,000 US. 

You hit the nail on the head, Rob.  I think this is the underlying gap that Minelab is content with and that we are not.  I love my GPZ, but it is not a good fit in many environments.   And so we are forced into experimenting and tinkering with our equipment.  I *do* believe this will put a bit more pressure on Minelab to reconsider previous decisions with what options they will offer.  But time will tell.

[Jonathan Porter]

I’m very lucky because I live in a country where I have the opportunity to actually pay for my detectors with the gold I find, in fact it is this potential that drives the demand for product which I then sell in our shop. From a gold perspective I’m pretty sure the Australian recreational market/demand for Minelab tech is bigger than the US market. This is down to a few factors, the main one being our soil conditions and the opportunity the Minelab product provides us and secondly the vastness of the detectable locations with ready access. No one in Australia seriously uses anything else other than Minelab if they want to regularly find gold, and I’d say Minelab know this. 

Quote

......... Steve, IMHO the GPS functions in the GPZ are a carry over from the CTX. I do not even use the GPS function because to my mind it is a resource hog, I would rather my GPZ focus on the act of sensing metal not telling me where I am. If you look at any online GPS forum they are full of hacks on how to deal with data and mapping associated with GPS! Minelab make metal detectors and I feel they should just focus on improving them not worrying about a thing as complex as a GPS!

Steve I hope you haven’t misunderstood my comments about the GPS, the GPS in the GPZ is a carry over from the CTX 3030 and as such was never going to be more than what it was, discussions I’ve had on this subject over the years indicated to me ML were better off focusing on what they do best rather than provide a band aid carry over that is not really suitable for the application, especially if they have no intention of ever improving/investing R&D on it. Hence why I refuse to use it.

In answer to others comments in regards to aftermarket coils for the GPZ, it is pretty clear from my perspective ML put a chip in the coil connector for a very good reason which is to circumvent counterfeiting, therefore anyone hacking that chip or modifying it in any way is breaching the intention behind its use, ethically that is a problem for me. 

Minelab have demonstrated they are willing to outsource coil manufacture, they have been doing this in partnership with Coiltek for years now. So why to date haven’t any of the coil manufactures put the case to Minelab so they can access the chip? There is obviously a big market there just waiting to be tapped into. Maybe they have but have not reached the level of quality and performance required for ZVT? 

Lastly Steve I sincerely hope you hang around and continue to have input on this discussion, in my opinion Minelab turned a corner with the introduction of the Equinox and I truly hope this direction change will flow through to future gold centric detectors. I’m not sure about your price point desire but I now know thanks to the Equinox they can make a really nicely balanced metal detector. 

JP

[phoenix]

21 minutes ago, kiwijw said:

All I, & most of us I am sure, want is to maximise our detecting experience with the gear we have & choose to use

I agree with that 100% JW.   My comments were not directed at anybody. I`ve seen quite a few people on different forums say "my detector is out of warrenty anyway"      The thought I have had for a long time and I wanted to express it is, if Minelab is going to void warranties I expect they will also NOT repair detectors that have had unsanctioned coils hanging off them. I think people should at least consider that.    Dave

[Steve Herschbach]

No worries JP. I am fully on board with built in GPS and XChange being a waste of money and resources if that is how you see it and will no longer advocate for the system. Silly really if even Minelab does not care about it, as is rather apparent. They broke it for a year so it's obviously not something to get invested in as it could be abandoned at any time. Back to Garmin for me. It's unfortunate though as it is a system unique to Minelab and could have been leveraged for competitive advantage. The fix I propose has nothing to do with hardware and would take a 14 year old coder a day to implement. Too much to expect I guess so I give up. The good news there is I don't have to bother writing part 3 of the series I started and then put on hold when Minelab broke it. I'll possibly do a different thread instead on how to export out of XChange to move on to something else.

On 4/21/2019 at 12:37 PM, Jonathan Porter said:

There are VERY good reasons why ML have not gone down the path of more coils for the GPZ

Which is why there is no need for me to participate in the thread. I wanted a small coil for the GPZ and I won't get a SDC to have one. I also am not interested in the aftermarket stuff. Like Jason I kind of thought the GPZ would have more legs as a developing ecosystem but it sounds like Minelab is already abandoning it to work on whatever comes next. As I have stated elsewhere I am not in the market for a replacement until next year anyway so it really just does not matter to me all that much at the moment. I was kind of assuming that I would be getting another GPZ but the reality is I don't have to even think about it until next winter. By then GPZ will be getting pretty long in the tooth and I may just wait on whatever comes next.

Honestly, I could not be happier with what we already have for options. It's just my nature to always push for more. That and I am a spoiled brat. All I ever wanted was a small coil for the GPZ and the import/export for XChange. Since not even one of the two things I wanted are forthcoming after 4 years I am throwing a temper tantrum and holding my breath until I turn blue and pass out. That'll show Minelab!! 

[jasong]

Thank you JP, this seems to generally addresses some things that have been left to our imaginations for years and tells me enough to feel comfortable in my gut decision to hold off for now and watch how things develop. It does sound like Minelab has not abandoned the serious gold prospector entirely, which was why I was considering going with one of these aftermarket coils, so we'll see what comes about by the time I sell this GPZ and get ready to buy my 3rd when the need arises again. (I feel like I'm in some ways mirroring Steve here now that I've read his response too, and in some ways not)

While we definitely don't have the kind of gold you have in Australia, I manage to scrape by on minimum wage or thereabouts on what I can find over here, sometimes I get luckier, and there are a few others doing the same. A GPZ is not a luxury item for me as it is for some here. It's a business expense which I take a loan out to purchase, and resell when I am done using it to pay off my loan. I do it because I love the freedom and lifestyle of being alone exploring the mountains and desert and having the right tool for job enables me to live a life like that at least part time. I buy one when I feel I can pay for the depreciation plus make money on top of that. That's why I ask the questions I ask, it's a tool for me and I have to be confident that what I'm using will pay for itself and more. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" when it comes to new products to me, I won't buy something unless I'm confident it'll pay itself off and so I ask a ton of questions and I appreciate all the people who take the time to answer some of them.