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The EQ can be a chatty machine in the water near hardpan..... better in fluffy sand out there.   If the Box and coil is under water its not EMI as much as the salt/minerals.   The deeper you go the more effect the salt has on the machine.  I also find it a bit irritating that the machine wraps around in the lower gold digits.... rather than the higher digits out of my way.   That means you have to play with 5 tones or 2 tones.... 50 tones seems to work better for me to ID targets from that wrap around falsing.    You can always turn down the GB...... but in hard pan your will really notice a depth difference since the machine is already working with reduced power.    You can also turn up the RS.... but that kind of chops signals... and you still have to reduce sensitivity with to much chatter.   IMO they need to play with the salt balance a bit more.   I agree Clive its not CTX or Xcal in PP mode...... they seem a little more refined out there and can be deeper if you have to do a lot of adjusting to the Nox....... BUT the smaller shallower gold the Nox seems to pick up.

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Chase--that's pitch--takes some getting used to but it's the most distinct.  I typically run the TB at around 2 --not really expecting any micro gold well worth the trade off in stability.  Cant be heard underwater--real flaw IMHO---just no volume.  

cjc

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On 5/19/2019 at 7:40 AM, dewcon4414 said:

The EQ can be a chatty machine in the water near hardpan..... better in fluffy sand out there.   If the Box and coil is under water its not EMI as much as the salt/minerals.   The deeper you go the more effect the salt has on the machine.  I also find it a bit irritating that the machine wraps around in the lower gold digits.... rather than the higher digits out of my way.   That means you have to play with 5 tones or 2 tones.... 50 tones seems to work better for me to ID targets from that wrap around falsing.    You can always turn down the GB...... but in hard pan your will really notice a depth difference since the machine is already working with reduced power.    You can also turn up the RS.... but that kind of chops signals... and you still have to reduce sensitivity with to much chatter.   IMO they need to play with the salt balance a bit more.   I agree Clive its not CTX or Xcal in PP mode...... they seem a little more refined out there and can be deeper if you have to do a lot of adjusting to the Nox....... BUT the smaller shallower gold the Nox seems to pick up.

Always appreciate hearing your spin on things Dewcon.  It is amazing just how much of this low end wrap this detector has--thats why I have no hesitation in running the TB up a bit to shut it up and reduce these partials.  Amazing that these will not even be iron just seabed.  Some will be way up at 9 that's too high.  Ive been testing an "undertune" (-9) prog that works well at making good responses stand out well.  Chase is right on with suggesting not straying too far from the stock settings especially RS--as you say it either flattens or chops.   Hunted with the EQ as a pro last week and although the coil went  it did quite well.  Taking some early notes for a V3 and realize that V's 1 & 2 did not address these issues nearly well enough.  You really need to have a good grasp of how Sens, GB, RS and Bias interact to get performance from this detector in deep salt water---especially if you want to hear any faint targets  over this "racket".

cjc

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Dave,  Sorry to hear you are not as pleased with the NOX as some others. 

I'll accept your grade, but I also do not know what you had expected from the NOX?  Your experience with it and your grading system is hard for some to accept as our results are different.  BUT...  I feel  the term "Beach Hunter" is to broad and each of us has our favorite part of a beach/water to hunt.

Your experience level of BBS and FBS technology speaks volumes, but sometimes old salty VETS are the toughest to crack with a new detector?   As a fellow detectorist myself who was in love with the same BBS and FBS as you...for different reasons, I also wanted the Multi IQ technology to be just as good and or better.  Guess what my experience in MX has shown me?  Location and beach mineralization is key to a detectors smooth operation, as is a properly tuned unit.  With your 20 yrs of experience, you know it took you many hours to get tuned with your detector and you also learned some beaches were different than others.  I've seen the same results with the NOX and I learn to adapt and move on.

We both know the BBS and FBS in non black sand beaches has fabulous depth and smooth operation. But a trade off is a heavier detector and one that misses finer gold jewelry.    Now in black sand beaches, non of these detectors will get ideal depths and that is why we use PI's.

As for chatter at the wave break and having to drop your GAIN?  I accept it, as I know the NOX is a more sensitive detector.  1st off though, I can't seem to get much more than 19 on GAIN when in deep water and sometimes only 17, to run smooth.  If I go to shallow wave break, I seem to be around 14/15 on GAIN.  I feel you are trying too hard to get max depth and worrying about having to drop the GAIN a little for that 1 area of wave break.  Is it really worth complaining, the 2 seconds it took to drop the SENS down a couple? Realize it's a new detector, new technology and you..a new user of the detector...also this Multi IQ technology has Strong/Weak points, just like any other detector on the market.  

Pinpoint Mode -  Very seldom do I waist time in the PP mode, so I would not be the one to know on it.

Here is what I LOVE about the NOX for Beach/Water Hunting.

Price vs Performance is TOPS.  The EQ-600 is by far the best value and my Military VETS can get one for $550.  No other machine in this price range is even close.  BBS Xcal-1000 is $1500 and FBS CTX 3030 is $2500.  Not even close. Grade A

Compact is TOPS.  I cut my lower shaft 4" and the complete detector can fit in a Carry On luggage on the plane.  Won't be able to do that with a CTX 3030.  In fact the lower shaft on the CTX is so flipping long, I had to purchase a bigger than normal piece of luggage for Checked in, not carry on.  Grade is a B, as I had to cut the shaft.

No leaks in my NOX and it has been to MX on six 1 week trips with each day being fully submerged 6 to 8 hours a day.  My BBS and FBS can't do that.  Heck, just ask Minelab how many of the older style CTX 3030's I was sending back.  At first they thought I was doing something wrong, so they were blaming me, a well known dealer.  Glad they pulled their head out of their arse and realized the issues. Grade of the NOX an A when compared to BBS and FBS, but I do see a potential down the road.

NOX gets an B for Greater Sensitivity to Micro jewelry and gold chains vs BBS and FBS.  Now realize there is a trade off with greater Sensitivity.  I think you are seeing it.

Swinging the NOX in the water 8 hours a day is so so much easier than Xcal or CTX.  CTX shaft is like a paddle, that stinking thing is so wide.  Only good part of it is, after my hunt and when the pain finally goes away, I can usually beat those young bucks at an arm wresting contest.  I give the NOX an A

Charging the NOX vs Xcal and CTX is easily an A grade.  All I take on the plane now is the cable.

 

So what are my...What I don't likes about the $650 EQ-600 for Beach/Water Hunting when compared to the BBS Xcal-II or FBS CTX 3030.  Yes the other machines are 3 to 4 times the price, so there has to be some bad right.

I feel the BBS and FBS has an advantage in DEPTH on bigger gold rings in most of the salt beaches I have hunted.  I grade the NOX a C average, but bump it up to a B, because I know it does better and goes deeper on Micro gold.

Material used for shafts get a D grade.  Aluminum 2 piece shaft is not good for long term use in salt water.  CTX was carbon fiber and so I expect the same on a 100% waterproof detector.

Stability at waters break grades a C, meaning average.  But I know how to easily adjust the SENS in 2 seconds and I am fine.

As you can see, I'm a fan of the NOX.  Is it my go to detector for every hunt style and site?  No and I don't expect that.  

I do know this.  As a 40+ year detector user and Multi Line dealer who has access to 180+ different models and brands of detectors, there is nothing out there that can do what the EQ-600 and EQ-800 can.  Sure I can find a machine that is better at a task or certain beach, but it too will have it's own drawbacks too.

Don't give up on the NOX just yet.  It is a very fine built detector with state of the art technologies.  Just like your BBS/FBS machines, they are tools having their own strong and weak points.  I realize this so when I take 2 NOX machines to a salt beach, I understand the tools I'm swinging, their strong points and so I put them to use in those situations so they can give me the best chance of Success.

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and experience.  Me, as someone who have been training customers on their detectors for 20+ years, I have learned 1 thing that stands out.  The more experienced detectorists are the toughest to keep happy with a new technology.  As others have said.  "Life is too short to be frustrated" with something you are not happy with.  Call me up and we'll take it on trade towards something much more to your liking.

Hopefully my info helps you some, but if not... may it help someone else.

DSCN0311b.jpg

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VLF's in general have problems in salt. I had some success with my AT Pro and great success on damp to dry sand with my Tesoro but I found the constant fiddling with ground balance and sensitivity got annoying. The Nox does do better than most vlfs and I assume still has the same problems. Personally where I hit wasn't all that bad on trash and ended up with a PI. For the amount of beach combing I do I grabbed the SeaHunter MK2 and really like the machine but PI's have their own issues especially with iron bits. 

I am not worried about digging a pull tab or few as gold/platinum tend to be in that range and digging in sand is not exactly tough with a scoop. If you do a lot of beach combing you may want to check out one of ML's Pi units or the Whites TDI where there may be a little better discrim on iron. The SeaHunter is pretty much a turn on and go machine and depth wise probably not a whole lot of difference.

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19 hours ago, Gerry in Idaho said:

Hopefully my info helps you some, but if not... may it help someone else.

Great post, Gerry, and I can say that never having hunted on a saltwater beach.  Not only is it chocked full of objective info, but a lot of diplomacy as well.  I know your primary occupation is treasure hunting, but I get the impression there is salesmanship somewhere in your background.  ?

 

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I must say that I have a love/hate relationship with the Equinox. I found it easier learning the GPX 5000 than the Equinox. Sure, if you stay with the presets you are ok, but if you are going to try and tweak it for maximum performance, you better understand what each setting does. More importantly you better understand how each setting relates to the other settings. I guess that is the general problem most people have is that the relationship between RS, GB, IB, etc... matters a heck of a lot more on this machine than previous models. It's also harder to gauge if the setting you just adjusted did what you thought it would do. The older models were more forgiving and smoother in changing settings. Until we understand these options, you will continue to hear complaints. IB was one control that I hear the most complaints about. What does it really do?  Sometimes you don't see any difference in response no matter what number it is set to. No doubt this machine has many benefits as well as drawbacks on the beach. It rocks on small gold, but I find at times I get great depth on certain parts of the beach one day and mediocre depth on that same part of the beach on another day (EMI and shifting sand considered).  For a machine that is aimed at the masses, it seems to confuse more people than other models. For me, I loved long tones on the CTX. On the Equinox you can sort of get long tones by lowering the recovery speed. But it doesn't bang out the elongated tone like the CTX did. That was crucial in effortlessly  hearing them quarters at 10-12" on the CTX. The squashed ID scale -  heavily condensed on the low numbers - does nothing to get the average detectorist to like or understand it. Does it have great capabilities --YES, does it make it as easy to get those great capabilities as previous models ? NO. My grade would be a B -  If it controls reacted as good as the GPX it would be a solid B. If the scale was expanded to remove a lot of the overlap it would get an A. If it would dig my holes  (especially through hard packed rocks) it would get an A +++++++++ LOL

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14 hours ago, kac said:

VLF's in general have problems in salt. I had some success with my AT Pro and great success on damp to dry sand with my Tesoro but I found the constant fiddling with ground balance and sensitivity got annoying. The Nox does do better than most vlfs and I assume still has the same problems.

It doesn't have the same problems as single frequency VLF detectors in wet salt.  FBS/BBS/Multi IQ and other multi frequency detectors have the ability to balance out salt and therefore establish good stability in wet salt sand.  Black sand with salt presents an additional complication and ML has presented a somewhat unique approach with Multi IQ and beach 2 mode to attemot to tackle that issue, but it is not fool proof and folks have had mixed results with it, as evidenced by Dave's and 'HardNox's negative experiences regarding target ID instability or depth.  Under these challenging conditions, even small tweaks on key settings and even coil control issues can make a huge difference and can be the key to success or the cause of frustration.

 

14 hours ago, kac said:

Whites TDI where there may be a little better discrim on iron.

Just to be clear, the TDI does not have iron discrimination or iron rejection per se.  The ML GPX PI's do have this feature.  The TDI does have a ground balance-based breakpoint adjustment which enables discrimination between high and low/mid conductive targets.

There still is no one size fits all detector for the myriad of conditions that can be encountered at the beach or in the field, so I agree with you that use of diverse dtector technologies like single and multi vlf and PI give you more options when encountering different situations.  Ultimately, one of the strengths of Equinox is that a measure of versatility is built right into the Equinox as it implements a variety of different Multi IQ profiles optimized for different site conditions and target objectives.  This is different than even its multifrequency cousins where user settings, discrimination profiles, and how the target information is presented to the user can be tweaked but the underlying multfrequency profile is essentially unchanged.  In other words, with Equinox the different modes are not differentiated soley by different user setting presets, but the underlying frequency profile and signal processing is different between modes.  This subtle but powerful difference in what comprises the various Equinox search profiles is often overlooked or misunderstood when folks compare Equinox to other detectors, including other multifrequency detectors.

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I don't doubt the Nox does better than traditional single frequency IB machines but it is still an IB machine. Lower frequency machines < 8 khz do pretty well in the salt too. They won't compare to a pi machine that is immune to the salt though.

You are correct on the TDI where it can sort of tune out iron and doesn't have the typical discrimination an IB machine would have. The SeaHunter has a pretty useless discrim and effects the size of an object more than the type of metal. The ATX does have iron check but comes with a pretty high price tag.

If you occasionally do beach hunting the Nox is probably a great choice but if you don't want to fuss with adjustments and don't have a ton of trash then a PI might be a better choice. I have no regrets on the SeaHunter and found turning the power on and searching is more fun than trying to decipher targets especially small targets through chatter. Not everyone would like a PI especially if there is a lot of iron bits ie bobby pins, lobster traps etc. I think it really depends on the beaches you intend to hit.

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I own a PI (GPX) also, in addition to the Equinox and a Deus.  But that is for max depth on land in mineralized soil.  I also have a semiretired ATX PI that could be used on the beach to great effect, but it is just too easy to just pull the Equinox and start swinging away without worrying about tearing up my shoulder.  Dave, the OP, has years of beach hunting experience and has “tried them all”, including PI’s, I’m sure.  I think he was primarily interested in the Equinox as a versatile travel beach machine for his forays to Mexico and knew some compromises would have to be made in order to be able to travel relatively light but was simply disappointed in the wet salt performance he was personally experiencing.

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