Tahoegold

I think my battery will last much longer because of the info here. My original plan was to fully charge and fully discharge 3-4 times. Then fully charge and store. Neither of those processes are recomended by the Lipo manufacturers. In fact, storing at full charge definitely damages the battery and shortens the life. I also live in a place that has sub zero temps and above 95°F temps in which I may have decided to charge the battery. That would have damaged the battery as well, which would shorten the life. Maybe, after reading all this info, the title shoud say, what would SHORTEN the life of a Lipo battery during the first few charges. Or at any time. I had no knowledge of these things and found out I probably would have done some damage. I grateful to know better now!

Thanks for hanging in there GM! I can't wait to read what happens at the Tavern. I wonder if Dutch is going to show us some of his skills!

Thanks! Good to know! I want to reiterate, I have no experience with Lipo batteries and was on track to damage mine if it wasn't for this info. I would have fully charged and stored for the winter. Only after first charging and discharging completely for 3-4 times. Well, I know better now! So, I'm still going to break in with the slow discharge and recharge with rest periods about 3-4 times then store it at 40%. I think it could be that it's regulated via a program or something internal. I just need something to do! Ha! Then, I'm going to just use it and now I know not to charge in sub freezing temps too. Of which I have here and I do hunt sled hills. So, missed that ding too. And, sometimes I travel to the desert. There it's 100°F most if the summer. That too is a bad temp to charge. Missed that ding as well. So, I think I have the best practices down now and I am once again grateful for this forum. There's an amazing amount of experts here. Thank you all! TG

It's about the break in not the longevity I'm interested in. I just don't want to break the battery right off the bat.

I'm only interested in avoiding damaging the battery. Especially on the first few charges.

Ok, so the Simplex must have a controller for charging. I had 1 bar when I started charging with a 600ma charger. It took just ste same time the user manual said it would if using a 2amp charger. So, 3hrs from very low to full will work with just about any charger. Going to wait 30min and charge again to top off. Maybe it already has topped off. Electronics are getting pretty foolproof these days!

The only thing they say is to use a 2amp charger. Nothing about storage, break in, or not running it all the way down. So, There really was a need for me in my mind to gather a little more info. I only am familiar with Nimh batteries. So, seems I would have had bad habits for the Lipo.

The Simplex+ has a Lipo battery according to it's user manual. Mainly, I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't damage the battery when using it for the first time. I have never used Lipo batteries and so wanted to see what are the procedures. It's a good thing because I was thinking at first I would run it down and charge it up a few times. Then I read that could hurt it. Also, I would have left it fully charged for the winter. Another mistake. All this info may have saved me from hurting the battery. Even though it has a smart charger, draining it firts time probably would hurt it. Ok! So, good input here. Maybe it is splitting hairs. Could be! But it makes for interesting conversation for some of us! Well, the topic of longevity may need to be on It's own thread so as to keep continuity of the break in info., but I like the input. I'm charging the Simplex today and I'll do this process. It seems safe enough. It probably won't change longevity or I may not notice performance differences, but, at least I won't trash the battery 1st thing!

The guy I quoted gave results after this process showing it lowered the internal resistance. Also, Lipo battery makers have recommended a break in period for some reason. After break in I will use a 2amp charger. However, I wonder, you say that because of the battery size, a 2amp should charge ot in 1.5hrs? So, they must have some kind of controller inside limiting the input. I'm also thinking, if RC batteries are Lipo and guys do this for them to reduce resistance, why not this Lipo battery? Either way, It seems this process won't do any harm to the battery. And, yes, it's just a little hobby fun too. I can't detect due to weather. I'm stuck at home for a few days and this gives me something to stave off the cabin fever! Thanks again! TG

Ok, so I've simplified this info. Here's the steps without the technical wording: 1) Charge the first time with a 1amp charger until full (not the recomended 2amp). Unplug charger, Allow battery to rest and settle for 20-30min. Then charge again to top off. Once 2nd charge is complete, unplug charger and let it rest 4-12hrs. LiPo MUST be fully charged, topped off, and allowed to settle in a environment with standard room temperature of 70-80°F. 2) Turn on detector and maybe plug in head phones or turn volume down to quiet the machine. Discharge to 80%, unplug charger and let battery rest for 20-30min, then resume discharge to 40%. Unplug charger and let battery rest for 4-12hrs. 3) Slowly charge to 100% again, unplug and allow 30 mins to settle, re-run charge then unplug and allow 4-12 hrs. rest. 4) This time, discharge more than step 2. Discharge to 60%. Unplug, let rest for 30 min, then resume discharge to 40%. 5) Slow charge again until full. Unplug and let rest 30min then charge again to top off. Unplug, let rest 4-12 hrs. 6) Discharge to 40%. Let rest 30 min. Then discharge again, turn on detector, the power meter should have increased a little above where it was when turned off, let it run run until back down to 40%. Unplug and Let rest 4-12 hrs. 7) Slow charge to full, unplug, let rest 30 min, then charge again to top off. Let rest 4-12hrs 😎 After resting for 4-12hrs you can discharge to 40-60% for proper storage. When it's time to use the detector again, use the same slow charging method, allow to settle 30 min, then re-run charge to top off. Do this process 3-5 times. And after that, you can use the 2amp charger recomended in the Notka/Makro Simplex+ user manual. leaving a LiPo fully charged for a few hours at a time does no harm to it. Usually, once you leave a LiPo fully charged or discharged for about 48-72 hours, THEN you will begin to see slight degredation in the life of the battery. If you leave it fully charged for weeks or a month (a mistake often made by people new to the hobby) then that might be enough to finally seriously damage or kill the battery. If leaving a LiPo fully charged for just a few hours won't hurt them. Finally never charge when the battery has been cooled to 32°F/0°C or heated to temperatures over 95°F/ 35°C Don’t “store” the detector for prolonged periods (several weeks or months) with a fully charged battery. Store it with the battery at 80% or less. Don’t need to worry about this for overnight storage or weekly/bi-weekly usage.

I just re read this first post. He mentions to only draw down to 60%. How I missed that I don't know. But, it seems to be the same idea of not discharging very much the first few times. I hope I didnt do much to harm the battery. I suspect I have not and going forward I'll stick to the 40-60% draw down. I found a 600ma charger and I'm doing my 1st recharge. Unfortunately, I went to about 20%. It probably won't do much and going forward, It's nice to have a proper method of how to break in this battery. Cheers, TG

Thank you gentleman, This helps! Just to make a note about my doing this. Yes, it may seem this is over thinking this or worrying too much about it. However, this is my hobbie. It's actually fun to learn about all the little details for me. And, knowing I'm doing the very best I can is satisfying for me. It takes my mind off of things for a while when I get into the nuts and bolts of this hobby. Also, it's nice to know this info. as there's so little about this process. I didnt know about the 40% low discharge on the first 5 cycles. That is good to know. You see, this process, once finished will let me feel like I've done something to keep my gear in top shape going forward. Regardless if it is overkill or something, it's just fun for me and I appreciate your sharing your experience and expertise! TG

Hello everyone, I just got my first detector with a Lipo battery. It's the Notka/Makro Simplex+. Since I have no knowledge on this technology, I looked into how to care for this battery. So, I looked here and didn't see a topic on break in procedure. I went online and one expert said he studies batteries and races RC. He claims to extend the life of his batteries and the internal resistance drops once broken in gently. He listed a process in where he gently (low amp) charges then uses a slow discharge then lets it rest for over night. Then slowly charge, then rest then discharge. Then rest. The explanation goes into quite a detail on how low of voltage before stopping the discharge. However, it boils down to discharging to about 10%. Then fully charge. Well, I wanted to post this info here rather than just a link in case his website goes away. So, who on this forum can add to this? I am going to go slow in charging my detector for the first time. I don't see it hurting. Also, news to me is storage should be around 40% for long term. I store long term during the winter months. Below I took only his conversation on the actual process and a couple of comments he made. There is some talk of other things as well and one guy just trying to prove his point. So, this is the meat of the talk. This has helped me I think. Here's the info: How I Break-In New LiPo Batteries (Lowers Internal Resistance Slightly and Prepares Cells for High Demand so they Last Longer): Link: https://www.rctech.net/forum/radio-electronics/1074298-how-i-break-lipo-lithium-polymer-batteries.html I prepare new LiPos by running the first 3 cycles slowly on the charger. This allows the electrolyte in the cells to stabilize and get used to both their fully charged and fully discharged states. Every time I do it, I do notice a small drop in Internal Resistance, and my LiPos seem to last for years and years. These days, many people say that breaking in your LiPo is a waste of time, but I can tell you for sure that it certainly makes a difference for me. So with that being said, here is how you do it properly: For all break in cycles, you will want to BOTH charge and discharge VERY SLOWLY. The MAXIMUM rate of charge or discharge for break-in is 0.5C, I usually run somewhere in-between 0.25C and 0.5C. For Example: Breaking in these new Ovonic 3S 5200mAH LiPos, ALL of the charges and discharges were run at 2.0A, or 0.38C. Yes, it is time consuming, but as I said, it ACTUALLY makes a difference. So, on to the actual process: STEP ONE: SLOWLY charge to 100% fully charged (4.20V Per Cell for standard LiPos, 4.35V Per Cell for LiHV packs). Unplug the battery when finished. Allow battery to rest and settle for 20-30 mins. Plug the battery back in and run CHARGE CYCLE AGAIN. This additional charge is performed because the battery will lose some voltage while settling, and it needs to be topped off. Once the Battery is topped off, unplug the battery and let it sit fully charged for 4-12 hours. This will allow the electrolyte and internal chemistry to become accustomed to its fully charged state. I usually leave the topped-off batteries overnight and then proceed to the next step first thing after I wake up in the morning. STEP TWO: SLOWLY Discharge the battery to a voltage of 3.7V Per cell. This very gentle discharge will only drain about 60% of the LiPo's capacity, or "mAH". This is something done deliberately because a fresh LiPo stays healthier if it is "eased" into a full discharge. As with the first step, unplug the battery when finished, settle for 20-30 mins, and then re-run discharge. You will notice that the oppasite has happened versus step one. Now the voltage will have bounced back up. These things happen because just like running the battery in an RC, charging and discharging puts a load on the battery. This means the voltage sags when discharging past what the actual voltage is, just as the voltage spikes when charging. This is why we re-run every single charge or discharge during break-in. We need the voltage to be as close as humanly possible to our actual target. So, after re-running the discharge to 3.7V per cell (11.1V total voltage on 3S pack for example), ensure that cells are balanced and unplug the battery. Again, as with the first step, now its time for the battery to fully settle in this state for 4-12 hours. Then you can proceed to step three. STEP THREE: SLOWLY charge to 100% again, same very slow rate as step one. Again, unplug and allow 30 mins to settle, re-run charge, then unplug and allow 4-12 hours. STEP FOUR: Same as step TWO but with ONE VERY IMPORTANT CHANGE: Now your discharge target will be 3.5V Per Cell (10.5V total Voltage on 3S Pack). Again, Unplug, settle for 30 mins, then re-run discharge. Finally, unplug, settle for 4-12 hours. STEP FIVE: FINAL SLOW FULL CHARGE. Unplug and settle for 30 mins, then re-run charge. Unplug and settle for 4-12 hours. STEP SIX: FINAL SLOW DISCHARGE. Target will be 3.3 Volts per cell (9.9V total voltage for 3S pack). You do NOT want to discharge your pack ANY LOWER than this, EVER. If you have an intelligent charger that can count mAH pumped in or taken out (like my ProTek Prodigy 625 Duo Touch can), you will notice that your full mAH rating will be drained going from fully charged to 3.3V per cell. The idea that discharging to 3.0V per cell on LiPos is okay for LiPos is actually a common misconception. 3.0V per cell will actually damage the life of the battery, just very slightly and very slowly, so it is considered acceptable. However, if you do your research, you will find that setting your LVC on your ESCs to 3.3V per cell or higher is the ONLY TRUE WAY to keep your LiPos FULLY HEALTHY for years to come. As with all other steps, unplug the battery when its done discharging and allow to settle for 20-30 mins, then re-run the discharge. Now, unplug and allow settling for 4-12 hours. FINAL STEP (SEVEN): After allowing your battery to FULLY settle at 3.3V per cell, you can return the battery to proper storage voltage (3.80-3.85V per cell) until it is time to stick it into a vehicle. When you are ready to run it in a vehicle, run the first usage charge at the same slow charge rate you used when breaking in, allow to settle for 30 mins, and top-off. Then, when running vehicle, take it a bit easy. You don't have to drive super slowly, but avoid full throttle and wheelies and things that put the battery under immense power draw for just the first run. Ensure your LVC (Low Voltage Cutoff) is set properly and do your best to drive the vehicle until you hit LVC. After this first run, you can now use your LiPo normally, using your choice of charge rate (I always recommend 1.5C or less for battery health longevity), and you can drive as you see fit as well. Monitor battery temps closely until you know how your battery responds to high demand. I hope this helps some of you guys get a bit more power and life out of your Lithium-Polymer batteries. These batteries aren't cheap, so I find it more than worth the time and effort to break them in, for the healthiest and longest-lasting batteries possible! One detail I forgot to mention: A good example is the fact that these Ovonic LiPos started with an Internal resistance of 4.4 MiliOhms on their first charge. However, after running my Break-In process, my charger now shows 3.2 MiliOhms average per cell at full charge and after settling for 60 minutes (this is how you properly measure IR, LiPo MUST be fully charged, topped off, and allowed to settle for 60 minutes in a environment with standard room temperature of 70-80°F). Firstly, leaving a LiPo fully charged for a few hours at a time does no harm to it. Usually, once you leave a LiPo fully charged or discharged for about 48-72 hours, THEN you will begin to see slight degredation in the life of the battery. If you leave it fully charged for weeks or a month (a mistake often made by people new to the hobby) then that might be enough to finally seriously damage or kill the battery. If leaving a LiPo fully charged for just a few hours hurt them, nobody would be buying them. You can find articles if you do your research that will explain how Lithium battery chemistry benefits from allowing the electrolyte to become accustomed to being fully charged. If you look at HRB USA website, you will find in LiPo battery product descriptions that they even recommend a break-in process for their batteries. The owner of SMC Racing and I have spoken about this over E-Mail before as well. One of my favorite sites for learning about battery technology is "Battery University". A very good read indeed. For instance, did you know that when LiPos were first invented, Break-Ins were MANDATORY for satisfactory performance? If you didn't do a proper break-in, your battery likely burst or put out very little power. There were several reports of bursting batteries to show that it truly wasn't an option. Now days, its not 100% necessary, but I have been doing RC for 16 years. Yes, Ive tested more than just 2 packs. This is just ONE example. Ive been breaking in LiPos now for about 8-9 years. In that time I have noticed changes on about all but one pack. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 packs tested. 5 Manufacturers, I run ProTek LiHV packs, Gens Ace Bash packs and Redline LiHV packs, SMC Racing Packs, Fantom Race Packs, and Ovonic Bash packs. Now as I said, the difference made on expensive race packs like Fantom was minimal. There WAS an observable difference, but was the process woth the time and effort? Eh, debatable. I suppose you could just charge slowly the first couple charges and drive gently the first couple drives if you want an easier way to break in that doesn't seem like a waste of time. I prefer the charger because I can observe and measure the difference from start to finish.

Not to be sounding snippy, I just want to point out that this is about Notka's post about their scoop. I like all the side info, however, for those wanting info on the Notka scoop, we should probably get back to that topic. It's really about learning about this product. Don't get me wrong, you've expanded my knowledge of scoops for sure. I just think someone looking to buy may want to know specifics about Notka's version. Personally, I need this scoop for water in the lake. Most of the time I don't use a scoop. But since I bought my first waterproof Simplex+, I wanted something when wading in the water. I've never owned a scoop. This one comes with 3 possible size handles, adjustable angle, and lightening fast water sifting. All for the same price of most fixed scoops even some without a handle! So, it was a no brainer for me. Lot's of folks saying its sturdy. I can't wait until I have a chance to wade around the water in a beautiful lake looking for treasure with the right tools! I'm sure there's others that are better. There always is. I may buy one some day. So, let's keep this thread solid on the Notka for a knowledge base. I'll report back when I get it and again when I can use it. Thanks! TG

Now that's a whole lotta sand scoops!!

So, out of curiosity, I checked out the stealth scoops. Oh my, they are $250! I am sure they are top notch and may be a better buy if they last. However, I should say, my budget is around $125 tops. So, the scoops in this range seem to be all about the same. They are fixed angle and either small or large hole, etc. I would love one of those Stealth scoops!! They have small holes in the bottom. I will most likely do a mod with some screen to catch the tiny stuff. I like to mod stuff to my liking and I'm sure that's what I'll do with this. Also, one guy said it may be a little heavy, so, another mod may be a pool noodle for a little buoyancy. If it's really heavy and not to my liking I may change my mind and send it back. It's going to be put to the test soon. Got my notice it's on the way!

I just checked out the Stealth 720i or 920i. These scoops also have thin areas of metal between each hole. So, It appears thin metal between holes can still be a popular sand scoop. So far, speculation on Notka's scoop not being sturdy has not been proven by a user with experience here, using it, AND an other brand for comparison. The one video I saw it was used in harsh oceanside beaches with mostly gravel. He has used several scoops and they wore out. He said this scoop was surprisingly sturdy. He used it for several trips and it did a good job and looked un fazed. So, I'm hoping, in my mild sand, it will be a good fit. Notice that the scoop itself, is replaceable. I know it wont last forever. Things wear out. It's nice to be able to keep the handles. And, the angle can adjust for the best work angle. It is an interesting looking tool. I will reserve judgment until put to actual use. I do appreciate the opinions. I am just trying it out. Hopefully, in my area, it's the ticket!

I am going to use this at a lake. No shells, no surf, almost zero rocks, lots of large grain granite sand. It doesn't compact like ocean sand. I found a buffalo nickle 1" under the sand 30 feet from shore when the lake was down. I agree that this basket will not have the same properties as a solid scoop with spaced holes. I won't need much pressure to dig here. I'm not worried about dropping tiny bits. I have more time to concentrate on those with other methods because I can save time digging trash. I know my situation is completely different than ocean surf lines. That's why I like this scoop. It's a lake, water doesn't move, pinpointing is poinless. grabbing a large amount of potential target material is what I am thinking will speed this process of finding TRASH. It is a theory. I have no experience with this scoop. I will soon and know for sure.

I don't want a tiny scoop. Everyone has their preference. I want a large scoop for fast work. This gets the large amount and spits it back out. More sand, faster processing, more chance to get the junk first scoop in less time. For me, that's the goal. This scoop has no competition in this way. I think I know what you are saying, small scoop, less area, better penetration with less effort. I'm hoping the sharp front edge will assist in wet sand. My targets are in the first 6-8". I don't need to go deep. I need to have one in my hands to see for real. So, soon I'll know. I'm not tied to any brand. I just need to find what works and that will be my tool. Sometimes, I try something that looks like it could work for me. That's how I've found my best tools.

Unless you have one how would you really know? Anyway, you and me really can't say. We don't have one. And, saying it won't last long isn't the same as someone saying it didn't last long. I'm going to give it a go. I saw a video of a guy in Europe, Scottland, digging in light gravel for many different days. It looked like he was getting deep narrow holes and the scoop looked unfazed. Most reviews say it's sturdier than they expected. I need a fast acting scoop. This one looks to be the fastest. It Has adjustments and different handles. With all that, to me, its a good price if it does last. And, the scoop can be replaced separately. It looks to have a lot going for it over the solid welded ones. I'm actually looking forward to giving this a try. I won't know for a week or two, we're having cold weather, some rain and a little snow!

Just ordered one. I went through the small hole vs big hole thought process. I came to this conclusion. Most stuff is junk. I want to rip past all the junk I possibly can fast and efficiently. What I saw in this is exactly that. My further conclusion was, the time saved on junk can be spent looking for that rare small piece. Sure, small foil, earings etc will fall through. I can recover that with another method. However, I may not have made it to that small target before the day is gone if I can't get through the trash fast enough. This just flys through the sand, especially underwater, it's almost instant. I saw some videos and it was quick. It has 7/16 holes. Most rings and coins are gonna stay put. I'm looking at this for tourist beach water hunting about waist deep and small holes don't work very fast in wet sand. Small holes work a little faster when in water, you get the tiny bits, but, I bet if I had one of the Notka scoops, and you had one with those 7mm holes, I'll have more stuff at the end of the day. I'll still even be able to get the tiny stuff to because I'll have more time to deal with that. So, does this make sense or am I dreaming? I'll have one by next week in time for the summer tourist season.

I raise my glass to you GM. Carry on man, you're welcome here and I think I speak for us all. And, thank you for hanging in there for us all!! TG

Well GM, it must certainly be a surprise for you. I am grateful for your efforts to post this. You are not only allowing us to read a really interisting story, you are allowing us to read history. I'm from California and I have heard short stories of people finding rich deposits. THIS story makes me feel like I finally get to hear a real, first hand account from the very beginning. It's a treasure, surely time will show this to be true. At least, now you know, there's great interest. Please, keep it up!

Thank you GM for taking the time to post this! I caught a head cold last week (negative on the covid test). I started looking at stuff to read and THIS thread is all I've been reading!! I like to read, however, I haven't read a book in years. Nothin really got me interested. Now I'm as hooked as I was as a kid when TV shows had weekly stories! I'm finally caught up today and wanted to congratulate you on your endeavors. I really like Jed's writing style and have enjoyed all the comments too. I'm subscribed! TG P.S. Can you at least let us know to look into the classifieds on this thread when you have the book ready? I don't want to miss out on one of the first editions! I'm subscribed and will be notified! Thanks!

I agree with ya on the wish list. 3 tones would be nice. I'd like to make hot rocks the low tones at about 3, iron the mid at around 20 and high tones for the rest. I have the worst conditions that you mentioned. Mineralization at about 82, aluminium wrappers and tiny bits all over. The GR really likes aluminium. But, it sounds of on gold the most. I am amazed how it can really pick it up. If it's electrum, it doesn't pick it up as well. But, the real gold, yes, it does. You have a couple of detectors that you are comparing. Those are nice machines. Thanks for the comparisons. The fact that I can set up the recovery speed, is really nice. It really helps smooth out the ground noise. I don't notice that function changing the sensitivity to tiny bits, so I have it at 8 a lot of times in this soil here. Otherwise, I have a wierd kind of delayed echo on all metal. I get a signal, then a brief silence, then a fading signal. The bigger the target the more pronounced the echo. I have used this to find tiny targets. Mayby this is normal on all metal machines. I haven't owned anything else except a compadre.