auminesweeper

Reg, I know that nower days you prefer a more relaxed work load and to be honest You are the only person on the planet who understands these machines to the last nut and bolt, personally I think you should be on a retainer because as warranty claims come in "And They Will" people are going to be stuffed and then what do we do just throw them away, you have been messing with these type of machines for close to 30 years maybe more and your a resource White should be proud to have, I see the TDI Pro has vanished from the product line and the only one listed now is the SL and with the Treasuremate series and the latest offering Whites appears to be heading in to the Hobby market in the true sense of the word and not the Prospecting /Serious user market, The GMT and the MXT are the last Hard Core machines that Whites make, This past year I have been buying up coils for them because they too are vanishing from the product list, I bought 2 more coils over the weekend, This shift in to making more entry level machine tells me all I need to know and it is like watching an old friend getting terminally ill, And I am powerless to make it right because no one will listen, You have always been there for Us Reg, and If I can help just call you know where to find me, John.

I use to like the 4 tone on my sovereign GT although the sound of them was hard on the ears, My E-trac drove me nuts and you are right it's handy to have them, I have never used the 7 tone ID I have because it takes my mind away from the task at hand thinking about what a target might be, which is strange for someone like me coming from a music back ground, Maybe as I got older my fuse has got shorter and I don't like being messed about which is most likely why I prefer the dig no dig option. Dang, I'm turning in to my Grand Father Yikes

Reg that's right, the first pass is soft then by the time of the second pass or the 3rd it is down to 12", and if I turn the GB ON it stays around 12 to 13 and a half inches at the most and it will not see it any further, A US 1977 Quarter is 12" to 12.5 max an English Penny is about 17.5 inches Max and the Morgan is 13, With the GB Off the 1977 Quarter is about 11.5 inches, the Morgan Vanishes at 14" so at 13 inches the signal would be strong enough to make you stop and check it out But then thin 1868 English penny is there at 17.5 to 18 inches, and the signal does not diminish and it does not adjust it's self in the NO GB mode like the Pro does except when the GB is ON which is the reverse to the Pro, Nothing I do shows any depth advantage with the GB on or off, the Morgan is a good 5 /16ths bigger than the English Penny, Yet if I use a small mans 9ct gold ring it sees it at 16.5 to 17 inches with the GB off and where it all goes really stupid is when I turn on the GB to 7 with the CON set to Low and the Gain on 10 (as always) it then sees the Ring at 18.5 inches,, So it has the Power but that smoothing thing seems to work when it should not, When you consider that is gives a faint signal at 18.5 inches on a Ring that weighs 4.18 grams with the standard 12" DF that is pretty amazing with the GB On and with it on it is Gaining an extra 2" inches when really it should be the other way round, but the amazing part is that it looses no depth to the pro on small things and yet I found the subway tunnel at 5 or 6 feet down, What do you think of these figures ? I am so confused at to why some things appear to be operating back to front, But that depth/distance is something else. when you sweep at half the speed of the Pro. Thanks mate,,, John

Well mate, it was only this past few weeks that I decided to give it a complete workout after testing the PRO and then comparing this one I started to notice all the Quirks, On small targets with the GB On it has the same sort of depth as the Pro +/- but change the settings and it all goes Pear shaped, but the crazy part thurn the GB of and test a US Quarter and an old half penny or a penny and there is a 50% boost but only on the penny no other metal will jump start it, If I can Give whites the full SP I will see what they say, John

The sweep speed on the Pro is far more forgiving where as the filters on the SL slow it right down to almost half of what the pro can handle, With "The smoothing effect" for the want of a better name desensitizes the SL so when it first see's a coin at 15" it will smooth it out or Balance it out or what ever else you wish to call it and it is the same effect as what the pro does with the Ground when you turn the ground balance Off, but for some reason my SL does it when the GB is On, and I have tried Lead, Silver Morgan Dollars modern Quarters ancient coins and the only thing that the SL will react to adding more depth with the GB Off is a 95% pure Copper coin other wise it will not see any coins past 12" where as if I turn the GB off on the Pro it will see coins at about 16 to 18 to 20 inches, I have never seen this machine behave as you have said in many of your posts, I appreciate what your saying but compared to the Pro the SL behaves as if it is wired back to front Because with the GB on it does that smoothing thing the Pro does with the GB in the Off position and when I turn the GB off on the SL the signal is sharp but it do will not sound off past 12" on a US Quarter which is a 25% Depth loss because it will give a faint sound on a Quarter at 15 to 16 inches when the GB is On, I know the sweep speed is slow it has never been any different where as the Pro's sweep speed is similar to that of the ML Sovereign GT maybe a bit faster but the SL is half that speed, I know what I have said is a complete turn around on what should be happening apart from the sweep speed, But this machine has a mind of it's Own, I have tried do some of the things you have posted but nothing ever comes of it and like I said when the GB is off then a copper coin is the only thing that this machine works like it does when the GB is set to 7, and with the factory coils (DF) it will not see anything weighing below 0.16 to 0.17 grams, and It will not emulate the performance that you speak off, even running it at 13.8 volts As crazy as it is this is how it behaves, even the Frequency control seems to be happier when set to the left and lord help you if you have the Delay set higher and you go to turn it down, The Howling it makes, It is easier to turn it off and turn the delay back to 10 and then turn it back On I pent about 250 to 300 hours trying to things you have said with as much success as a fart in a Hurricane. This thing behaves like no other detector I have ever used and this it my 4th or 5th PI Sorry Reg, but this machine is possessed, John PS, I will make a short video and even that big Morgan won't wake up the SL with the GB off and it still gets it further with the GB on and heres the crazy part it see's a small mens 9ct ring further than it does the Morgan,

So how is it working out for you Chuck ? john

hello Jim, it is always a great day when you turn up, and thank you for your constructive views, I started this thread because I have seen so many people trying to look for an answer to testing coils etc So I found a list I kept about the Conductivity and Resistance of metals so then I tried to match Gold with the closest set of numbers and that did not work because if the conductivity was close then the Resistance was wrong so then I tried to match them by weight and that did not work either, and where people had said that lead signals louder than Gold when using bits that are the same weight, That did not work because the equal weights ended up in the lead piece being bigger. So the Conductivity was wrong then the Resistance was wrong and then the weight was wrong, So the only way for it to work successfully is to go by mass, As in the same physical size and the only way to do that is to multiply or divide one metal or the other by 1.6992 , The problem is because nuggets are not like coins or Items etc, So I was trying to create a base line So I would have and Idea of what a Coils limits are, I even went as far as buying Black Sand so it would give me real minerals to put in the ground to deal with, Along with using highly magnetic signs that Ground Balance around the 86 on the GND meter. With health being less than Ideal I have not had a chance to get out there to put my theories in to action, But the things I have done have worked well enough to be close to the real world. Which is why I started this thread, But I can not put it together like you did your Silver Thread, because this is more of a Beep or No Beep type of research, Good to see you Jim, take care, john

Well my SL does have those features because when I set the GB to 7 and turn the Gain to 10 and if I wave a coin in front of it, the first time it will see at 15" and by the 2nd or 3rd sweep it will not signal the coin past 11 or 12 inches and when you turn the GB off it sees the coin at about 11 and a half inches and unlike the TDI Pro it suffers a depth loss unless it sees Copper, I Appreciate what you are saying but this is what happens, and these things do not happen with the Pro, I have owned this machine for about 18 months and it has always had these features / Problems, Sorry But the TDI Pro has the smoothing effect when the GB is turned OFF, and you only have to watch that video to see it in action and my SL does it when the Ground balance is turned On and it has ZERO Depth Increase when the GB is turned off, Even in Air Tests or in the Ground, Sorry Reg I respect the fact that you are a Wizard when it comes to Building and operating these machines, But please do not try and tell me what my machine is NOT doing or as you put it does not have these features, because I am here and so is the Machine and as a side Note there is another member on the forum who has seen both of my machines in Action, john

Thanks Jen that's a great video, That first spot was a nice place with a nice selection of terrain to choose from, and I would love to hit that Rye Patch with a good sized coil, It does make a person want to just hook up a camper and vanish for a month or two, I wonder how hot the ground was where the Guys Staked their claim ? I thought Steve was funny, But the crazy part about this game you have to treat every site like it has never been hunted and you have to have that confidence or there is no point in going out there,, When I first started and my first failure did more harm than good I use to have dozens of "What Ifs" roaming around in my head but then when I saw what a good machine could do I just tore the place up, Now it is a case of " I'm here where is it" and I just go out there to have fun because I know if it's there I will find it, Pick the wrong machine and it does take a good while longer to feel at ease out there. Know your machines and that Gold will follow you home. john

I love Army surplus gear all my optics are DOD, But I don't want to melt what little gold I get.

I found this elsewhere and thought it might be useful. http://chemelec.com/Projects/Metal-1a/Understanding-the-PI-Detector.htm

jumping on a plane is not practical at the moment, and testing things in the garden is a lot cheaper than driving out to the gold fields even if I was back home, The whole idea of this thread was to highlight the pitfalls of substituting lead for gold during testing and it is more for people who want to know more about their machines than people who only use one when they go prospecting, Coming from an engineering back ground I really like using detectors but I also like to know what makes them tick, and many people still don't know how to test machines beyond Air Tests. If it is of little use or interest then just Deteat the whole thread. And Delete my profile at the same Time.

I agree, I told junior 2 weeks ago I'd had enough and I wanted to go back home well that did not work out to well,

Yeah that's right, And of course we do not know how that person treats his machines, it's very easy to bag a company but if the owner is less than respectful towards that machine then the sky's the limit as to what can go wrong with it. My machines always look like the day I bought them even 3, 4, 5 years down the track, after two years of owning my last GMT A Dealer gave me 90 dollars less than what I paid for it New, But I guess most folks are not like me. john

I someone on another forum has had to send their Pro back 6 times due to many issues and it has cost him more in shipping etc than it cost him to buy the machine when it was new and he is not happy about the quality of the repairs either. john

I would but seeing as this is about using substitutes as test pieces it makes it a little awkward lol

Your such a Tease, lol.

No Steve neither have I, It was because some one posted that lead was louder and the fact that I always weigh the test bits that I use and then I realized that I had Adjust the weights because by going on weight alone I was ending up with bits that were physically bigger so I found that I had to Divide one or multiply the other by 1.6992 to make the result more accurate, and that figure comes from one cubic cm of Gold weighing 19.32grams and divide it by the weight of one cubic cm of lead being 11.37grams which equals 1.69920, and that figure relates to the size or weight of only these two metals in relation to each other, For testing purposes only. John

No need to be sorry mate, I was doing some testing today and I used some tiny bits of lead and one bit was so tiny and one of my machines could not see it so I squashed it flat and BANG there it was, thinner than a piece of paper but loud as all heck, So I then made some more bits around 0.012 grams without squashing them and my machine was seeing them at about an inch and a half so then I got to thinking about people saying about using lead as a substitute for testing a coils nugget hunting ability and then the Cogs got going so I did a search on lead and Gold and I saw the weights of the 2 compared to their size and one thing led to another and this is where I ended up at. I had read on other forum that people were saying that lead sounds louder than gold when they posted the weights So then I got to thinking and worked out why, Because that test piece that is lead weighing 0.012 grams or 0.2 grains, If it was Gold and equal in Size would weigh 0.022 grams which it was seeing and about an inch and a half, which is not bad for a VLF. Remembering that there are 480 grains to an Ounce and it is seeing 0.2 grains. john

What I am saying is because detectors respond to physical mass, Because if I had a 0.3 gm Gold nugget and a piece of lead that was the same physical size then they would both respond similar but if I had an 0.3gm Gold Nugget and a 0.3gm Lead nugget the signal would be stronger on the 0.3 Lead nugget because it is Physically bigger, Yes ?? john

Ya know thinking about it even back then ML made monos for the 3000 and the 35 so I can't see them making them if they did not work because it would be just dead money, but like all machine whether it is a PI or a VLF a person should change the coils to suit the ground conditions So really it is more about matching the machine / coil to the conditions, even on a VLF if the ground is too hot we go from a Concentric to a DD and the same rules must apply to certain PI's Aye. John

Well I already know the TDI will see a cut half at 12 inches +/- and if they are celtic bronze/copper coins then you can add a bit more to that and seeing as Celtic Gold Staters contain a lot of copper then you can maybe add an inch possibly 2 inches, But it will see them a bit further than the cut halfs Ok See I didn't leave you out of it, I wouldn't forget my Mate, I am not that mean, john

I have often wondered about the difference in these to metals because we often use lead to test machines or coils and it seems that the Two are quite far apart, It works out that lead is 41% lighter than Gold when compared to A 1 cubic foot Block of Gold to a cubic foot of lead, So if a person uses a 0.05 gram piece of lead to test the depth of a coil it would be 41% larger than an equal size in weight in Gold . Giving you a false example of real world testing This topic has come up before on other forums where people have just compared the two signals saying that lead hits louder but that is not the case because after doing the maths the reason it is louder is because it is that much bigger as in 1.6992 times heavier because one cubic cm of lead weighs 11.37 grams and one cubic cm of Gold weighs 19.32, So when you find an 0.03 gram piece of Gold and you want to simulate finding such a small piece then the piece of lead you need should weigh 0.0176 grams and an 0.05 gm of Gold is equal in size to 0.0294 gram piece of Lead or rounded off at (0.03 grams). Adding to this a cube of Gold that measure 14" square would weigh about One Ton Cubic foot of 24c pure Gold=1204 lbs/cf > (1) Cubic foot of Rolled Lead= 711 lbs/cf A difference of 493 pounds in a 12 inch x 12 inch x 12 inch cube. Anyway this is just something to bare in mind when a person is trying to test out machines and coils when you do not have access to tiny nuggets. John

I Agree, The first thing I noticed was how sleepy the SL is when it comes to small nuggets, I tried them from 0.08 to 0.12 and then 0.17 grams and it seems that 0.17 is the point where it starts to wake up seeing them at about an inch or so, As to how much the MJ coils do for the SL I am not sure, But I see guys with the TDI pro and ML PI's and they are finding really tiny nuggets, But the SL can see the those tiny Roman Minims that measure less than 1/4" of an inch across at huge depth, but the thing that concerns me most is the fact that it prefers copper over Gold and that copper is the only metal that has the boost effect with the GB off IE On a 39mm Morgan Dollar it see's it at 12 to 13 inches, But on a 31mm very thin copper Victorian penny it will see it at 16 to 17 inches, Which is about 25 to 30% increase, These pennies are 95% copper 4% Tin and 1% Zinc where as the Morgan is .900 Silver and a lot bigger and because of that smoothing effect the differences are variable with the GB On, with the distance on the Morgan starting off at around 14" maybe ? 15 inches and fades to about 12" within 2 sweeps of the coil, I think you summed it up best about using it in the hot rock Gardens where Nuggets grow.

You will do fine with either of them for sure, Tesoro's are great in junk filled site when you get the hang of them and throughout the EU where there is thousands of years of man made junk they can still find the good gear. john