Chase Goldman

APTX-LL Headphones, Earbuds, and Receiver/Transmitters that work with APTX-LL compatible detectors (ML Vanquish; ML Nox 600/800; Nokta Legend).  Note that the Receiver/Transmitters can be plugged into the headphone jacks of many detectors that lack APTX-LL transmitters (including the new ML Xterra Pro; Nox 700/900 and Manticore detectors that use Bluetooth LE with no third party wireless headphones available) so you can use these BT APTX-LL headphones and earbuds with them.

Earbuds (note that "true wireless" APTX-LL earbuds and APTX-LL wireless bone conduction phones appear to be unobtanium right now):

Legacy Buds style slightly Aukey B80 Phones are available here:

https://www.ebay.com/p/12040445991

These are expensive but high quality:

https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Aurvana-Trio-Wireless-Noise-Isolating/dp/B0868G7Q4P/

These are reasonably priced and have good audio, I have the silver ones but only green are still available for purchase though they are currently out of stock:

https://www.amazon.com/Glazata-Bluetooth-Headphones-Neckbands-Earphones/dp/B08JTVC1JH/

Finally, in budget category there is the following - I have not actually verified that these will pair up in APTX-LL mode with the Nox 800 but they should work based on the explicit APTX-LL specifications listed.   I also have no idea on actual sound quality.  But at $20 plus a 40% off coupon.  It's hard to go wrong with these (pick up a second pair for backup) if they pair up in LL mode AND have half way decent fidelity.

https://www.amazon.com/HomeSpot-Bluetooth-Headphones-Qualcomm®-Compatible/dp/B09P4WQRH6?ref_=ast_sto_dp

My personal favorite are the following - but they are more bulky because they have a loudspeaker to create a personal sound space near you head without the earbuds, but you can also shift to earbud mode if desired.  They have AMAZING audio quality and stereo separation in both loudspeaker mode and bud mode.  Note that they are not water resistant and need to be protected from direct water impingement.  But that's the beauty of wireless, if its raining, you can hide these under your rain gear easily and they will still work well.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y56W9XQ

Headphones:

Paww Dual Sound 2 earbuds. They are APTX-LL and do pair with the Equinox 800 and 600. They are getting hard to find but here's a used set on Ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/295567843524

Creative Jam V2's on the Ear Phones - Best Deal for Headphones:

New: https://a.co/d/dK8G46h $40

"Renewed" (for half price): https://a.co/d/7AM6o0F $20

Avantree:

https://a.co/d/gE1bW4a $130

https://a.co/d/7AM6o0F $90

https://a.co/d/3yfYuvv  $70

Ankbit/Lavales (appear to be clones):

https://a.co/d/09TWNEd  $99

https://a.co/d/4m1KdW2  $99

August:

https://a.co/d/29pcgJl  $57

MEE:

https://a.co/d/feCwWVn $98

Here are some APTX-LL receiver/transmitters:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B84NDTZB/

https://www.amazon.com/YMOO-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Simultaneously-Headphones/dp/B0BBZZXQTL/

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01B4W40VC/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XLTPTSD/

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08G8Q7NXZ/

HTH

Why wait until next gen?  XP has done a great job at addressing the issue today AFAIAC.  I am able to regularly run the Deus 2 at greater than 90% of max sensitivity with great depth compared to my Nox 800 and 900 that seem to struggle if within visual line of site to known noise sources such as cell/radio towers, transmission lines, Wi-Fi emitters, or even other detectors and pinpointers.  So to answer your questions…

1 hour ago, dogodog said:

So the first question is would you like to see a machine that can deal with/overcome EMI and WIFI???

Yes, I would.  Deus 2 seems to deal with it better than any other SMF machine I have used (Nox 800, Nox 900, Legend, Vanquish) but there are still some “grid-connected” houses that challenge even the D2.  Just to be clear, EMI encompasses all electromagnetic emitters including WiFi which is just a radio operating at 2.5 and 5 GHz (same frequencies as Cell towers though cell towers have elevated transmitting antennas and powers and Bluetooth audio that transmit at very low powers.  Cell phones are somewhere between WiFi routers and cell towers in terms of transmit power and all IT gear, Alexa’s, TVs, Webcams, GoPros, Printers, and even watches have WiFi and/or BT). Then you have high power transmission lines and transformers, other radio frequency emitters (radar, aircraft, terrestrial radio and HDTV transmitters, and satellite commas), electric cattle and dog fences, fluorescent lights, LED power converters, cracked insulation in power boxes, internal combustion engines with alternators and rotating generators, electric vehicles (including e-bikes!) with static electronic motor drives, and even transient natural emitters such as lightning, cosmic rays, and solar flares.

1 hour ago, dogodog said:

Second question, Can Manufactures deal with this issue or is it some KHZ related issue that we have to live with thanks to the FCC???

Manufacturers can deal with this issue by providing sufficient shielding but the issue is complex.  How is the EMI manifesting itself?  What type and how is it getting into the detector (i.e., via the coil or via the control box)?  (A myriad of different problems with different mitigations/solutions).  The mitigations are generally limited by manufacturing cost (providing sufficient shielding) and environmental variables vice technical capability.  If a manufacturer is relying solely on an operating frequency shift as a band-aid mitigation, that is woefully inadequate.  Furthermore, the issue is exacerbated by the fact that these are sensitive instruments working at sensing micro watts  and in a world that is spewing EMI from megawatt sources in many cases.  That’s a 1x 10^12 range (a 1 with 12 zeros after it).  Not to mention that the detector’s microprocessor electronics self generates EMI that has to be dealt with just like it has to deal with your nearby phone, GMRS radio or GoPro.  And if it is a simultaneous multifrequency detector, you must let in a wider bandwidth of 

The FCC and similar international governing organizations actually try to combat the issue by limiting consumer and industrial users to stringent EMI emissions limits.  If manufacturers actually follow those refs and guidelines (beyond just the certification testing) then EMI is greatly mitigated.  I suspect the issue is that a lot of shady stuff goes on and bypasses the regulatory certifications resulting in a lot of spurious EMI that is hard to mitigate.

1 hour ago, dogodog said:

Third question, Is it even on their radar???

It is, but at some point the cure can also mitigate detector performance somewhat, and then there is the R&D investment (huge testing time and cost sink) and the recurring manufacturing cost of implenting physical shielding mitigations.  At some point, for a non-safety critical consumer device, it may just not be worth the trip to go above and beyond FCC or CE certification requirements as far as the manufacturers are concerned.

So, how do you work with what the manufacturers give you?  Here's my approach with a simultaneous multifrequency machine.  My basic philosophy is not maximize depth to the extent practical, but to take the depth you get by maximizing signal to noise ratio to the extent practical.  

1) If you can avoid EMI laden sites, do so or at least stay as far away as possible from the visible sources of noise such as cell towers or other antennas, transmission lines, electric fences, transformers, motors (e.g., a well or water pump house), or "grid-connected" structures that may have power and wifi.

2) Run the manufacturer's noise cancel routine, which is just a quiet channel frequency scan.  If you have near field sources of EMI (cell phone, pinpointer, another detectorist) have them nearby and energized when you run the noise cancel.  I honestly do not think the manual sensitivity setting should have any bearing on how a frequency scan is accomplished but the manufacturers are not entirely clear on this aspect, either.

3) Make sure you understand the difference between EMI and ground noise.  Ground noise will only manifest if the coil is moving.  If all is quiet with the coil not moving but things get unstable when you swing, then the issue is ground noise not EMI.  Do a ground balance, cancel out the ground signal with disc or notch, or lower transmit power as necessary.

4) Avoid running at max sensitivity unless you can but reduce sensitivity if you are still getting interference on the "quiet" channel.  If that is the case, and you are concerned that you have to lower sensitivity too much, then change modes to a different simultaneous multifrequency profile (avoid high sensitivity modes, if possible, such as high frequency micro gold modes, as they are more susceptible to both EMI and Ground Noise).  You may have to re-run the noise cancel (quiet frequency channel) routine as that is typically mode specific.  Trial Run SMF modes you would not consider ideal for your environment such as beach modes at a farm site, etc.  You never know when some experimentation might reveal a non-obvious solution to the issue and enable to utilize the advantages of SMF.

5) If no simultaneous multifrequency channel achieves an acceptable combination of quiet and sensitivity, then try going to single frequency.  Typically middle of the road frequencies do best (8 to 15 khz) against both EMI and ground effects.  But again, experimentation is key.

6) Re-run the noise cancel routine as needed.  Especially if you get closer to those noise generating sources at the site or if you and your buddy's detectors are interfering with each other.  That often cleans the problem right up.

HTH

Whelp, that’s a pretty scathing statement.  Not surprised, though. 

On 4/16/2023 at 2:11 AM, phrunt said:

I'm done buying detectors for some time now

Is the world ending tomorrow or something.?  🤣

Love the off-center strike as a detecting find.  Back in the day when I was into collecting - I branched off into error coinage collecting as I learned about the 1955 Lincoln Cent Doubled-Die error and some hype surrounding a number of variants of Lincoln Cent doubled-die errors in 1972.  So finding a error coin like that detecting would be one of my bucket listers.  Great saves.

I have both pinpointers (and a number of others).  Don't over think the mineralization thing, you just need the pinpointer to get you close to your target for recovery.  I regularly use my Garrett Carrot in the hottest of soils in Culpeper VA without issue.  It is a reliable and rugged pinpointer.  It gets the job done.  The Nokta Pulse Dive is a fine pinpointer and great if you plan on doing any submerged detecting, but I prefer either the Carrot when not using my XP Deus 2 Detector, or the XP Pinpointer when using the Deus 2 because it links up wirelessly to the D2 and is a great, sensitive pinpointer.  It is not a PI but also does just fine in hot dirt.  Bottom line is that you can't go wrong with either the Pulse Dive or the Carrot.

BTW - The only way to tell the level of mineralization in your soil is by using a mineralization meter, which, unfortunately, the Manticore does not have built in.  But again, that really doesn't matter other than for curiosity sake for the most part because you will still be able to ground balance it satisfactorily without knowing the actual mineralization level.  Also, even though the Manticore will come up with some arbitrary unitless number as a ground balance reference point, you really can't infer the level of mineralization from that number.  It's just a reference that lets you know whether the ground reference point is changing as you traverse your site.

HTH.

3 minutes ago, Maximus said:

Chase that was so precise.  The links and research were a lot of work. I learned everything about the Aptx LL jungle and more from you. I wish everyone who has struggled with this issue could see this post. Many thanks.

Thanks.  BTW - I modded the post to add some BT APTX-LL transmitter/receivers that combined with the APTX-LL ear buds can be used with the Xterra Pro that are A LOT LESS expensive than buying ML BT LE Compatible wireless accessory phones, that you can't even buy yet (but that WILL be guaranteed to be expensive, knowing ML).  HTH.

What Jeff pointed out are just about the only non-neckband style APTX-LL buds still out there (they still sport the wire between the right and left buds, i.e., they are not "true wireless" earbud style - but if neckband is a no go, then that's about your only choice at this point).  But they were solid as far as APTX-LL compatible earbud audio quality is concerned and were priced north of $50 when first released.  That's a smokin' deal Jeff found, if they are legit because of not only the price but the fact that they are hard to find, period.

Personally, I like the neck band style because it sort of anchors the buds if one or both buds fall out of your ear while swinging or if you just want to temporarily remove them for a break without fear of them just falling to the ground or tugging on the other ear (the neckband keeps them somewhat more secure to your body than true wireless or even single wired phones like the Aukey's and you don't have the controls dangling off one of the bud wires).  If you (or other readers) are potentially interested in reconsidering the neckband style of APTX-LL buds, then the following are viable options:

These are expensive but high quality:

https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Aurvana-Trio-Wireless-Noise-Isolating/dp/B0868G7Q4P/

These are reasonably priced and have good audio, I have the silver ones but only green are still available for purchase though they are currently out of stock:

https://www.amazon.com/Glazata-Bluetooth-Headphones-Neckbands-Earphones/dp/B08JTVC1JH/

Finally, in budget category there is the following - I have not actually verified that these will pair up in APTX-LL mode with the Nox 800 but they should work based on the explicit APTX-LL specifications listed.   I also have no idea on actual sound quality.  But at $20 plus a 40% off coupon.  It's hard to go wrong with these (pick up a second pair for backup) if they pair up in LL mode AND have half way decent fidelity.

https://www.amazon.com/HomeSpot-Bluetooth-Headphones-Qualcomm®-Compatible/dp/B09P4WQRH6?ref_=ast_sto_dp

My personal favorite are the following - but they are more bulky because they have a loudspeaker to create a personal sound space near you head without the earbuds, but you can also shift to earbud mode if desired.  They have AMAZING audio quality and stereo separation in both loudspeaker mode and bud mode.  Note that they are not water resistant and need to be protected from direct water impingement.  But that's the beauty of wireless, if its raining, you can hide these under your rain gear easily and they will still work well.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y56W9XQ?ref=nb_sb_ss_w_as-reorder-t1_k0_1_14&amp=&crid=MHTQ2FXOT71R&amp=&sprefix=avantree+torus

True wireless APTX-LL buds (no wire between the buds) are basically unobtanium.  As noted previously, if you want to continue your quest for such buds, you need to make 100% sure the buds are spec'd for APTX-LL, SPECIFICALLY.  APTX, APTX-HD, and APTX-Adaptive will not provide low latency compatibility with the detectors that Jeff listed above.

The issue of compatibility and specs amibiguity lies not so much with the detector manufacturers but with the headphone manufacturers themselves who inexplicably fail to be precise about compatibility with the myriad of bluetooth protocols and codecs that are out there, especially in regards to low latency.  It's really annoying, confusing, and borderline underhanded in the way features are presented and specific specs are withheld.

Also, Maximus, if you are considering the new ML Xterra Pro, it (as well as the Nox 700/900 and Manticore) uses the newer BT LE spec with the LC3 codec, which is also a low latency codec.  Unfortunately, headset manufacturers are still working out compatibility bugs between different BT LE chipsets and the only two BT LE earbuds out there right now are not compatibile with the Minelab BT LE chipset used in the afore mentioned detectors, including the Xterra Pro.  So your only optionS on ML Xterra Pro is to spring for over the ear ML branded BT LE wireless headphones as an extra purchase or wired phones or purchase a BT APTX-LL transmitter that will plug into the headphone jack of the detector and transmit to one of the phones listed above. 

Here are some APTX-LL receiver/transmitters:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B84NDTZB/

https://www.amazon.com/YMOO-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Simultaneously-Headphones/dp/B0BBZZXQTL/

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01B4W40VC/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XLTPTSD/

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08G8Q7NXZ/

Eventually, we THINK, Xterra Pro/Nox/Manticore compatible BT LE third party earbuds will eventually show up on the general marketplace, but they are also currently unobtanium for now.

HTH

Fire away with the questions, Steve.  Retirement is great and has reinvigorated the hobby for me now that I don’t have to squeeze it in just on weekends and work around family events.

Word of advice:  Prioritize joining a club or participate in local organized group hunt activities so you can build a network of local acquaintances who can advise you on gaining access to productive sites.  Unless you are planning on prospecting or beach hunting, the best permissions are typically privately owned properties versus public land like parks which is subject to more restrictions and has typically been hit hard.  Focusing your energy into site historic and map survey research and gaining site access permissions (i.e., location, location, location) are the keys to success and enjoyment of the hobby.  
 

The equipment, though necessary and important, is less critical to success because most mainstream and popular detectors perform well if the user takes the time to simply accumulate swing hours to learn how to use it.  The debates here about features and performance comparisons are usually arguments about shades of gray and personal preference rather than of substantial machine performance differences - so let your budget be your guide and ask questions about machines you are considering within that budget.  No need to invest big bucks until you figure out if you really have the detecting bug, and even then you can get a single machine that can do it all in the water or on land and that can grow with you from beginner to pro for less than $500 (check out the Minelab Xterra Pro or Nokta Legend for starters), with the only real need for a second machine for backup or as a loaner for a buddy or family member.   Besides the detector, you’ll also need a handheld electronic target recovery pinpointer (the Garrett “Carrot” Propointer AT is popular, a probe and/or hand digging tool/exctractor (Lesche tool or a gardening knife) for recovering targets without damaging manicured turf, a larger, preferably root slaying shovel/spade if you’re detecting in large unmanicured lawns/fields or woods, a long handled heavy duty sand/water scoop for the beach, and a finds pouch for your recoveries and to carry your recovery tools - a tool/nail apron can serve as an inexpensive starter pouch for this purpose.  I also personally like to wear neoprene gloves to protect against nast surprises during target recovery such as sharp glass, jagged aluminum, needles,  creatures, thorns, and poison ivy roots, etc. that can ruin your day.

Speaking of trash, get yourself into the proper mindset and set expectations accordingly.  You will be digging A LOT of trash.  The gold rings, silver coins, and rare relics will come, but will be interspersed mostly with nails, pull tabs, can slaw, bolts, screw caps, wire, aluminum siding, modern bullets, slugs, shot, and casings, and zincolns.  Patience, pragmatism, and perseverance are eventually rewarded, and you’ll get hooked.  You gonna luv it.  Welcome and happy hunting.

15 hours ago, NCtoad said:

Thanks for the reply Bob.  I may be misunderstanding what you mean in your third paragraph, but if you mean that I’m getting the gummies from a friend or off the black market, I’m not. I buy them at one of the many local CBD/hemp stores in my town.  They’re widely available and 100% legal. 

What he is saying is that when he first hit the sites he thought he was hitting the hot spots and when he decided to hit the "fringes" he figured out he was hitting the fringe areas all along and what he thought were the fringe areas turned out to be the actual hot spots.  Point being, you may just not have gotten your coil over the areas you THOUGHT you had previously covered because even when we grid a place, it is hard to know whether we really got the meaty part of the coil over every square centimeter.  I think we tend to overestimate how thoroughly we have covered a given site, even postage stamp size plots, with our coils.

Also, variable ground conditions like moisture content can change your ability hear fringe targets when dry one day that turn into banging signals when moist the next.    Also, targets are physically moving in the ground, sinking with gravity and rain action, or moving based on vegetation or manual disturbances of the soil.  Also, as mentioned, others may have come along a removed targets that were masking the ones you found. Just a lot of variables out there.

I do believe focus and attitude are big players in metal detecting.  Ever notice how your finds rate goes down during a detecting session until the area seems played out.  I think we attribute that simply to taking targets out of the ground but that doesn't explain why when we return to the site we start finding things again.  I think we truly lose concentration and fatigue sets in as the day goes on and takes us off our A-game.  Also, sometimes, snagging a great find, ups your confidence and things kind of steamroll and you have a great day at a site you previously thought was played out.  So yes, improved concentration could very well be a player in your site coming alive again.

All these things are what makes this hobby both frustrating and invigorating.  You just never know what you are going to find and should generally expect the unexpected.

3 hours ago, phrunt said:

The 8 x 5.5" can't be too far off now one would hope,  It's quite a nice size too, I have it with my Vanquish.

 

The additional coverage of the 10x5 suits my purposes better, so I personally am hoping for 3rd party support here, but I much prefer the 8x5.5 as an option over a 6" round.  If the 8x5.5 turns out to be the only option, not a show stopper.  But unless an incredible Manticore deal falls in my lap, I am in no hurry to get a Manticore and will wait at least until the accessory coils are available and assessed by users.

On 2/22/2023 at 1:15 PM, abenson said:

So I may eventually just end up with the Manticore out of the 2 at some point.

The only thing holding me back at this point is nothing equivalent to the Nox 10x5 coil available for Manticore, yet.

16 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Some other 800 owners may be finding the 900 to be oddly difficult to deal with too.

Yup.  

17 hours ago, dogodog said:

Tom, The 900 is a good machine almost but not like the 800. I bought one for the 3 piece shaft and was about to hate it until I realized it needed some tweaking on the programs. Once I got away from the 800 mindset I find it to be a killer for gold rings. it limits the amount of trash you will dig because of the expanded numbers. If your hunting for coins and like tones you will have to play with it to break off of pennies. Test, Test, Test, The 900 hundred is really good with the coiltek 10x5. I pretty much run my 900 with the coiltek and the 800 with the 6 inch. The Manticore in my opinion is over priced and in dirt preforms the same as cheaper machines. Do not get lost in all the hype of whats the best. You will do well with a 800 or a 900.

Agree.  Some good perspective here. 

I agree the Manticore is overpriced for what it is (I think the D2 is also similarly overpriced), compared to the incredible bang for your buck that is Nokta Legend.  The Mantocore should be priced where the 900 is now and the 900 should be reduced to the 700 price point and so on, consistent with ML's Xterra Pro newly established low price point anchor.   Of course, none of that is going to happen as long as people are willing to pay the asking price for the Manticore and Nox Mark II.

However, that all being said, I do believe the Manticore is more refined than the 900 and has things to offer over and above the Nox 900.  I too have the 10x5 almost permanently bolted to the 900, the 6" on the 800, and will be looking for a "gently used" Manticore from a future "box of chocolates sampler".  

12 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Chase Goldman, is your private message mailbox full?

 

Thanks. Working on resolving it...

13 hours ago, Digalicious said:

Chase,

It's my understanding that SMF isn't true simultaneous, but rather, extremely fast sequential. If so, then what about what I mentioned in my previous post, in regards to kind of making the recovery speed "simultaneous" as well?

Been thinking about your Auto Recovery Speed feature from the perspective of your "simultaneous" multi recovery speed concept. 

When I happen upon an iffy target that is not a clear dig me signal I go into manual "interrogation" mode which consists of swinging over and turning on the target while shifting detection modes to see if that resolves the target further or clearly indicates falsing.  On the Deus 2 (D2), I search in pitch tones where a hit readily stops me in my tracks, but full tones audio provides a more nuanced and expressive audio which can help on identifying distortions associated with non-symmetric targets like can slaw.  Relic mode on D2 uses Iron Audio Reject vice Discrimination so it is useful for differentiating iron falsing.  So I engage those modes sequentially over the targets as I see fit based on the continuous feedback I am receiving as I interrogate.  If I am swinging over possible co-located targets I waggle the coil (fast, small amplitude swings) while switching to a mode with a higher recovery speed and/or a different SMF profile or frequency.  Engaging pinpoint mode also provides clues in terms of target footprint. 

On D2 this "interrogation" technique is accomplished quickly by manually switching through custom "interrogation" programs I have set up adjacent to my main "search" program(s) using the plus/minus program navigation keys.  This UI feature is implemented best on the D2 IMO and is one of the reasons why D2 is my preferred detector over similar high performing models such as the Nox 900 and Legend (I don't own a Manticore).

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that perhaps a feature  expanding beyond your "auto/simultaneous" recovery speed feature into a customizable/automated/AI sequential target interrogation mode in contrast to and in addition to the standard search and pinpoint modes that exist on all IB detectors today might have merit.  That might be the ticket if done intelligently and with customizable parameters.

Just a thought...

22 minutes ago, Digalicious said:

I'm thinking we have detectors that already do that quite well. Give me a detector that can distinguish aluminum from gold and I'm good 😁

That WOULD be the Holy Grail but perhaps a different physical detection principle beside induction balance would be needed.

3 hours ago, Digalicious said:

If someone isn't using any discrimination, and has the iron volume on, then sure, they can hear all the targets and constantly adjust their recovery speed...but how many actually hunt like that?

Don't know how many hunt like that, but that's what I do.  More precisely, I use discrimination WITH iron volume on D2 because Disc as implemented on D2 is not just a ferrous signal silencer, it helps to better differentiate ferrous vs. Non-ferrous targets in proximity to one another and mitigates ferrous down averaging of non-ferrous IDs.  I use iron volume to tell me where concentrations of ferrous targets exist because that tells me where human habitation existed (when the visual clues have been erased by time).  FWIW.

1 hour ago, Digalicious said:

Can you imagine having the best separation and the best depth, at all times, because your detector is able to set the best recovery rate as you swing? If such is possible, I believe most hunters would consider that a true game changer.

Well, there are no free lunches in detecting.  It's a constant struggle of managing tradeoffs.  So, in reality you can't have best depth AND best separation simultaneously because one parameter works in opposition to the other, automated or otherwise.  There may be an optimal balance point, but what criteria would you use to determine that (like you said, too many variables)?  In high target density I am utilizing high recovery speed to find the shallower keeper targets that are hiding amongst the iron and that have hopefully been left behind by previous detectorists with slower machine.  Selecting that recovery speed is a trial and error process that relies on "feel".  It's imprecise and somewhat subjective.  I have no expectation of depth.  Also, when I'm in "machine gun" target density situations, my swing tempo and amplitude is highly variable as I try to lock in on keeper targets in the " muck", so auto recovery might be a hindrance and counterproductive.  If I want depth, auto recovery speed is not going to do it, removing the iron and trash piece by piece is necessary and tedious to achieve that end.  However, great strides in AI and machine learning have been made of late, so I'm not saying we'll never have a machine learn in real time based on the detectorist's manual adjustments someday that is able to emulate what we do by intuition and experience today. Might be ways off and detector manufacturers are going to have to decide whether the return on investment and cost passed on to consumers for that effort is going to be worth it.

Frankly, in the mean time, just give me accurate target ID at depth under a wide range of soil conditions and give me on demand fast recovery for proximity trash targets and I'm good.

Doc - If Garrett wasn't selling only Axiom dual-coil packages I would expect the cover to be included  or available for separate purchase (for the 13" and 11" standalone accessory coils) but since I already have a coil with the same form-factor I have no issue swapping the cover between the Mono and DD variants and would prefer that option to save on the cost of a forced buy of a second unneeded cover.  If the 16" coils are only being sold as standalone accessories, the I would expect the the cover to be included.  It's not a big deal as long as I know up front what is going on, regardless of the magnitude of the coil cost.  

On 4/13/2023 at 11:39 AM, Digalicious said:

Point # 1 seems silly to me. I mean how hard is it to press that button that's right beside your thumb when you occasionally ground balance? Also, I'd be worried that it would automatically go into ground balancing mode just by natural or inadvertent movement of the coil.

Frankly, the Quest implementation of sensed coil pumping to initiate GB makes more sense to me (than an automatic recovery speed adjustment feature) as I often encounter areas where I need to do frequent manual ground rebalancing due to shortcomings or downsides to automatic (ground mineralization sensing based) ground tracking that either can't keep up with ground phase variations or that can cause weak target signals to be missed.   In fact, I could make a similar statement regarding implementing automated adjustment of recovery speed.  That is, how hard is it to simply manually bump the recovery speed up or down based on the number of targets encountered in in a single sweep.  Also, the perceived change in target density (sudden machine gun effect) with constant manual sweep and machine recovery speed is the thing that alerts me that I am in an area where I need to concentrate on the target signals and also alerts me to the boundaries of the high density target patch.  The key to that perception is keeping recovery speed and sweep speed constant but high enough to not significantly affect depth while being able to perceive high density situations.  I personally would rather be making the conscious decision myself on trading off depth vs. recovery speed, for the reason stated.  Not sure whether my routine would be adversely impacted by an automated recovery speed adjustment, having a little trouble visualizing how it would change things for better or worse, TBH.

Note also, having the ability to adjust recovery speed manually or otherwise as a basic feature is a relatively recent trend.  For the longest time the ability to change recovery speed independent of other features with the range of adjustability that is commonplace now, was a feature present only on the Deus (yes, there were limited fast process, mode-based recovery speed adjustments available on Fisher, Whites, Nokta/Makro and other machines over the years, but they were much more limited than the implementation you see on Equinox, D2, Legend, Quest V series, and Manticore today). 

I agree that it should be a relatively simple feature to implement utilizing coil accelerometers as swing sweep sensors and counters.  But I think the real reason we are not seeing it that it is just not something users are clamoring for, so manufacturers are not inclined to go to the trouble to implement it.  I may be a Luddite, but I personally see the feature as a solution looking for a real problem statement.  I am not really seeing a compelling use case, but then again, I am also in the camp of detectorists that like a wide range of manual parameter adjustability but less automation of that adjustability whether it has to do with ground tracking, gain (transmit power or sensitivity) adjustments, noise elimination, dynamic adjustments in target signal volume, or the suggested auto recovery speed feature.  I may come around on this particular feature suggestion but just not yet seeing how it can significantly enhance my detecting experience.  That's just me.

6 hours ago, Odin said:

If gold comes out, it would be from relics, such as rings, coins, they are large pieces, and most importantly, coins, relics, etc.

Exactly, that is why you should not be considering the Deus 1.  No advantage to Deus 2 in that regard.

On 4/5/2023 at 9:16 PM, Odin said:

They should bring out the white coils later, don't they think?

Don’t hold your breath on that elliptical coil and am starting to feel like I can do just fine with the 9” round even in restricted swing and high target density areas.  As I have no need for chasing microscopic gold, Deus 2 is the obvious choice between those two detectors.  It has A LOT more versatility and capability than the Deus 1.  If you need to primarily chase microscopic gold and want an XP detector, get an Orx which has some enhancements in the Gold program over the Deus 1. No need to waste the additional money on the Deus 1 at this point.

21 hours ago, Erik Oostra said:

Those trees don't show up on old photos, they're far younger than the coins.. Old photos of this part of the island show a forest along this bay right up to the beach, but there may have been a small clearing here a hundred years ago.. The landscape is very different now and I'm forever having to imagine where people would swim/picnic in the olden days..  

That's the way to do it.  Looking forward to what else might pop up as you re-imagine where past people activities took place on the island that are less than obvious now because of the changes in landscape and structures.  Beyond the tourists and holiday goers, that island has a rich Aboriginal, European Settler, and WW2 history from what I have heard from you and read about.  There are more surprises and treasures to be found.

I'm not a tree expert, Erik, but do you think those trees have been around a hundred years or could the landscape have changed to be less inviting for hanging out over the years?  Just thinking out loud.

2 hours ago, TJ Jeepguy said:

I frequently experience vdi’s of 7 or 9 (never 8 ) with good non-ferrous tone.  Some have been small iron with a small or thin non-ferrous, and some have just been very small iron with some symmetry In their shape. And that is regardless of tone choice other than full tones.  Full tones just doesn’t know how to act or react yet. It’s like a hyperactive teen at his first job.   

However in Deep HC, small or large iron will false in both VDI and tone running stock discrim , but lowering the descrim will make that same target false in tone but read a 7 or 9 VDI. I haven’t noticed that in any other program, but I haven’t dwelled too much on it. 
 

Thanks.  (and Thanks 67GTA).  When I suspect falsing in Deep HC or General (my two main search programs), I just switch on over to Relic with IAR on 5 to see if it resolves to a ferrous tone.  That plus turning on the target pretty much solves falsing.  As far as iron VDI and non-ferrous tone, fine, I'll take my chances on that one.  Again, the shifting over to relic resolves it one way or the other.  If it sill rings non-ferrous regardless of vdi, then I will dig it.

I have almost no idea what he said (caught the "Naught 8, Naught 9 in full tones" thing but I really don't know what issue he was conveying).   I also seriously hope they are not calling it "0.72".