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☠ Cipher

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  1. I too am most interested in what comes out of Minelab next. Where I see the equinox coming up slightly short at least regarding factory presets are precisely areas Dankowski has mentioned Minelab was focused on, and particular emphasis on EMI and ground subtraction. Minelab also tends to provide better and more elaborate disc methods and interface on the high end. I can’t help but feel like XP and Nokta Makro have wasted a chance to capitalize on what multifrequency brings to the table by presenting it in the same old same old user interface you can just as well find on any single frequency machine. The door is thus still wide open for Minelab to restate its claim on the top of the hill with some tweaks, features and graphics that make the most of simultaneous multifrequency. Still, we have no idea when this Minelab Flagship will hit the market and metal detectors hold their value pretty well, so I’m sitting here teeter tottering as well.
  2. You’ve gotta be happy with your choice based on what you’re seeing so far. Never really know until you get it in your own hands in your specific environments, but Deus 2 looks like a winner that just came out of left field to knock it out of the park again. If I were Minelab I’d be worried right about now.
  3. XP has a good strategy in putting the Deus 2 out there early in some users hands. Seeing what it can do seems to have had a very positive outcome and it’s not uncommon to find comments in the threads where demonstrations have given interested people the impetus to go ahead and preorder, with some even cancelling their Legend preorder and deciding to spend that extra $1,000. I’m closer to purchase of a Deus 2 than I’ve ever been myself, but there are still a few more tests I’d like to see and I’d like to see what the Legend looks like sooner rather than later. So far I’ve not seen anything out of Legend that inspires the kind of confidence and readiness for prime time coming out of the XP camp. XP seems proud as a peacock of what they’ve done here and content to let it speak for itself even in some hands that would’ve torn it to shreds had it not been up to par.
  4. It doesn’t seem factory presets are leaving much depth on the table either, but I’d be curious to see what those last few levels do for depth in a low EMI environment too. I know the main competitor is determined and heavily focused on EMI handling in their next model, which is a good game plan. Deus 2 seems to handle EMI a little better at this point.
  5. Deus 2 definitely comes hot out of the box and it seems a lot of thought went into presets here, but there are likely going to be situations where it’ll need to be toned down, which is usually not the case. Most machines leave a bit on the table for the stake of stability. XP must be pretty confident that this machine can be run on the razors edge in a wide range of environments though. I think Reactivity will also remain one for the tweakers, having such obvious impact on depth and separation. Notch and audio preferences also vary quite a bit among us and from environment to environment. It is a nice feature to be able to eliminate common pests like bottlecaps at the press of a button and I’d like to see more target specific disc features like that.
  6. What I’m seeing is that XP sent out their machine a little hotter running 95, and Minelab was a little more conservative sending their machine out with presets that would equate to between 80-88 (if running 20-22) on most programs. It would be an interesting head to head in a lower EMI environment where you can run hotter. I too would like to see a hot soil comparison, although Gary Blackwell has shown Deus 2 can handle magnetic soil quite well on a shallow target. All in all, the Deus 2 is looking really good. As the days roll on it’s harder and harder for me not to just push the button on it. I still think the wireless coil is silly on an all terrain machine especially, but I see some obvious performance advantages already, maybe enough for me to get past the one shortcoming I see. At first glance at least, and clinging to factory presets, it does appear XP has been able to show up Minelab at their own game. Minelab now has some work to do on their high end variant. Perhaps more than they initially thought in light of what XP has accomplished here. It seems obvious to me watching all I have so far that Deus 2 is not just some imitation Equinox clone. It seems to have its own kind of magic going on. Big question for me remains can it handle iron like the Deus 1.
  7. Why am I noticing a lag in the audio? Seems to lag behind the swing quite a bit. At first I thought it was just the one video, but it carried through the rest of the videos. Then I thought maybe just Calabashes videos, something with the filming. But I also noticed a lag in the Dukes of Derbyshire video as well. The machine is still giving off target tones well after it’s been lifted away from the targets. Is it just me? Seems fairly pronounced to my eyes and ears.
  8. I’m just getting around to reading all this now. I don’t see it as hijacking at all. I appreciate your information. It’s an interesting new gadget for sure.
  9. Single core computers are good for word processing and lots of other tasks. They were eventually phased out by multiple core computers with multiple simultaneous co-processing units. Things move much slower in the metal detecting world, but in the end things evolve toward faster and more efficient processing of increasingly complex data. Evolution and natural selection apply to technology as well as anything. You’re seeing it unfold in single frequency vs multifrequency. There may always be specialty machines, but I doubt they will always be configured as they are now either, and in terms of all terrain do it all machines single frequency is looking backward. It’s a dead end. It’s obsolete. Selectable frequency, Multifrequency, mixed domain, and faster processing of more data from more sources is evolution. As people vote with their hands and their wallets natural selection is already taking place and we are evolving toward a more complex system better able to cope with the extreme ends of performance and giving more reliable data even under ordinary circumstances. As efficiency improves that complexity can be hidden away from the end user, but it is still operating and it makes a smarter system.
  10. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! I’m thankful for this hobby and everything all the companies have contributed to it.
  11. At some point the entire metal detector industry has to reach peak saturation of sales. It’s been hot for a while with the release of Equinox and Vanquish, added to the popularity of treasure hunting shows and YouTube metal detecting channels. But at some point everyone who has wanted to try metal detecting and can afford to has given it a go. In the US anyway most people don’t stick with it. There’s less to find and more competition for what is out there. As more people give up the used market gets more of the market share. The stock market is all about projection, even if it’s based on the thinnest suspicion about what the future holds. You can bet Codan investors would be looking at things like market saturation, the second hand market, competitor projections and projected releases, inflation, the economic condition overall and how much disposable income is out there, gas and energy prices (when high people sit home or travel less), chip shortages, supply line issues. All these factors seem to be going the opposite way investors might feel comfortable with. There’s also more hedge fund predators tanking stock than ever before and you never know when they’ve got their eye on a given company until you do see a sharp and sudden drop in stock. War in Afghanistan has ended, as the West backs off from the Middle East. That could affect countermine sales. You’ve got Covid and Covid restrictions ebbing and flowing. New treasure hunting legislation in the UK. More around the world as the hobby has grown and garnered more attention. Im wondering how much a next generation hobby machine would really boost stock. It would be hard to imagine since it would seem targeted at the top tier of detectorists, a smaller piece of the pie. You can ask for a higher profit margin from those folks, but it wouldn’t seem enough to make up for the volume at the low to mid tier. Maybe if they kept it around $1,500. Deus is very common to see out there despite its tag. CTX at $2,500 has been more of a unicorn to see out there and at rallies. The used market is saturated with CTXs. Anybody who wants one will have no trouble finding one between $1200-$1500 often loaded with accessories.
  12. I can’t speak for everyone but I did offer the same criticisms of the Apex somewhere buried in the forum. I think one of the reasons why NM is getting so much blowback here is many people felt insulted that as NM adopted something that is described as doing the same things that made multi-iq what it is, they were also diminishing it by implying customers/users of it fell for thin marketing jargon for generic simultaneous multifrequency, and there’s nothing really special about it. However it was meant, this is how it came across, and the irony seemed lost on them. These insults continue by saying Equinox users are just buying a label and upset because they paid nearly $1,000 for a $635 machine. The irony that it can be $635 partly because it’s built on that label’s already established platform is also lost. The thing is that people like me who will spend $1,000 and much more won’t hesitate to also spend $635 if it brings something more or else to the table. Chase is also right, Minlelab never threw the first stone at NM. Going after Minelab so aggressively and insulting their customers wasn’t as effective as just telling them why their product is more desirable and how. It made people defensive. Even Garrett users became defensive after seeing the Apex tossed in the sand like rubbish. Most of us here own machines by several manufacturers. We think a lot of the machines we have. That’s not to say there’s not fair criticisms of the way Multi-iq and other platforms are marketed. There are, and you’ve touched on them. NM’s missed the target and came from a glass house in a way. I believe you. It makes me sad. If there were a company I want to see succeed above all others it’s First Texas and Fisher. I can’t for the life of me wrap my head around their strategy/game plan, or lack thereof. I loved the sound of the things you guys were working on at Whites. V3i remains a machine I’ll never part with. Shame it was lost on so many people, but it does have quite a cult following to this day. I was hoping to see something a little closer to that platform and color graphics on one of these new machines. Same boring black and white LCDs across the board was disappointing. I can say that the Ferrocheck graphic is an intriguing addition to Legend. Things like that are what I’m looking for and what customers like. Instead it seems like most platforms have moved away from graphics discrimination aides just because they arent always useful in every scenario.
  13. You’re talking about things that have never seen the light of day and that’s the problem with everyone’s ideas. They aren’t making it out into users hands. Everyone can talk about what they were going to do or are going to do, but Minelab gets it done. This all just sounds like a primer for what I’ve already said, that everyone is eventually going to have to copy multi-iq to get out of their stuck point. Dimishing multi-iq, or saying it’s being done through some other chip or demod method makes no real difference. It still amounts to adopting someone else’s platform by emulating it’s operating characteristics. Operating characteristics that have not appeared on any other machines but the equinox and vanquish. Getting lost in the technical differences under the hood of this machine or pointing out loose similarities in past methods or ideas is not going to change what people are plainly observing with their own eyes. The answer can’t be you’re not seeing what you’re seeing or that Multi-iq has somehow been done before. I never said legend is an exact carbon copy. It’s just too close to what Minelab has already done and lacks originality. I’m far from alone in feeling that way. I suspect I’m in a minority because most people just don’t care and want the metal detectors to keep cranking out in ways that benefit them. There’s a part of me that feels that way too, but I also want to see something innovative come out of it. That being said, I fully expect all the manufacturers to side with NM on this and have ready rationale for doing so because the game plan from here is to do something similar themselves. As an aside, I don’t want to come across as a crank or an ass here. I’m in good spirits and offer my points of view in good spirits even if it’s not coming across. I appreciate your presence here and your ideas. I hate that you’re not working for a company to make them a reality. Of anyones ideas I’d like to see yours come to fruition. They all sound like my kind of metal detector. You deserve better and more resources. But I disagree that there’s enough real world separation between equinox, multi-iq, and legend such that these kinds of observations and comparisons weren’t entirely predictable and avoidable. If anything it’s a good lesson for future platforms to add enough originality to operating characteristics and features, frequency selection, frequency combinations, tones that it doesn’t appear to be a cheaper technological imitation, but it’s own product. Obviously multi-iq was received this way. It built on any similarity to anything else enough to be its own product with very little criticism that was copied homework. If there were any it went away when people saw it was different from what they had been using.
  14. I just think NM had to know this criticism would come with the territory as they made each and every decision to emulate another platform. Apparently this is ok in the industry because everyone is going to have to emulate multi-iq to get out of the innovation rut the industry was in. This is why I think Minelab is owed more gratitude and respect than anything. The whole industry was fast approaching a stuck point technologically where nothing truly different was on the horizon. The Equinox changed that and generated excitement with multi-iq. Now everyone in the industry is clamoring to come up with a way to implement it for themselves. Minelab features have always generated excitement at times things were getting stale. But multi-iq has sent everyone scrambling in way nothing else has. It has given customers something to get excited about and manufactures a way to revive interest in creating new product lines around its methodology. Even among NM own product line nothing has generated the buzz and anticipation this product has because deep down people know and see what a difference the technology behind it makes in the field. One day maybe Minelab will emulate something NM creates. Then they will truly be setting the standard. Until then NM is still making its way up the ladder. They’ve accomplished a lot and leapfrogged big names in a short period. There’s no need to get overly hungry to get into the lead at this stage. It’s ok to admit this product was inspired by another as they continue to learn and try to keep up. That’s true and it’s humble. It’s more than some of the others are doing.
  15. This misses the point people are making. Multi-iq is not just generic marketing jargon for “simultaneous multifrequency.” It describes the way Minelab’s latest version of multifrequency works, by using mode specific frequency combos and task specific frequency weighted algorithms all of which has been copied here by NMs own admission in their description of the device. Not to mention everything else copied right down to the tones. You can’t just make that go away by saying “this is untrue” or “my competitors don’t own multifrequency.” No they don’t, but multi-iq is not just any multifrequency. It is Minelab’s creation and has specific operating characteristics no other version of multifrequency had. Then to turn around and fling snot at Minelab after borrowing all this just wasn’t a good look. I have nothing against NM. I own products. I think Dilek is great. This is the hand she was dealt. I just hoped NM would create something of their own here and not just replicate multi-iq. At the very least it all looks so close to Equinox that it makes for bad optics I expect will create controversy from now till who can guess when. This debate won’t die down anytime soon, but that’s a gamble NM took here. In the end, Minelab was right about SMF vs single frequency. Multi-iq has advantages almost everywhere. Simplex only proved that if you make a WATERPROOF machine cheap enough people will still buy single frequency machines. It really said nothing about the relevance of single frequency. I’ll bet people won’t even use the single frequency options on The Legend. Even on Deus 2 single frequencies seem to be an almost afterthought, with SMF the centerpiece.
  16. All I need to hear is that Deus 2 is every bit the Deus 1 as Deus 1. I’m looking for that advantage in iron, and whether their multifrequency stacks up would just be a bonus. If Deus 2 somehow misses the operating characteristics of Deus 1 while trying to capture what the Equinox brought to the table then I’m out and looking for a Deus 1. I have a pair of bone phones btw. I bought them for $5 at a lawn sale. They work awesome and you can still hear your surroundings. I don’t like headphones and never wear them unless I have to. Bone phones are the closest I can come to not using headphones if I have to wear something to be silent. I can’t begrudge you for changing your mind on the purchase either. I can’t guarantee that I won’t within the next hours or days buy one or both new machines myself. I talk myself into and out of it so often I can’t know what tomorrow brings. I love my tech toys and metal detectors are no exception. Deus 2 seems to bring much more to the table than Legend. I’m just not in the market for a bargain detector anymore, particularly a duplicate of one I already own and comfortable with. I want the top tier from here out.
  17. I can’t wait to hear your report. It will weigh heavily with me personally. I’m also in the market for an XP at some point, just not sure which one.
  18. I knew I had seen the guy from the Nokta Makro commercial before. It’s Steve Buscemi lol.
  19. It’s been corrected since last night. It wasn’t embedded and link was a dead end but he fixed it.
  20. …and not just a Nox clone either. They’ve even borrowed from the FBS line with a graphic on Fe:Co. This was a missed opportunity for Minelab to have omitted, or not have carried over such a feature. Ferrocheck is really the most attractive feature of the Legend in my view. It’s creating quite a buzz in threads all over. If it proves a successful unit, that feature is going to be very popular on it.
  21. Well said. I don’t think it was a good look to be taking so many pot shots at a company they’ve borrowed (to put it mildly) so heavily from either. A thank you would’ve sufficed lol.
  22. You are not completely off base. We would not like what NM is doing if it were a Chinese company. Sometimes the only difference is NM is coming in through the front door with a product that at least looks a bit different, while the Chinese are climbing in through the bathroom window with clones. In some ways NM is climbing to the top by underselling the innovations of the Equinox. To what degree idk, but I suspect one of the issues they have with the term “multi-IQ” is a legal one. Once you describe, label, and patent a technology it becomes your protected intellectual property and more difficult for others to duplicate and market it, so they prefer to refer to it generically as “simultaneous multifrequency.” NM does have some innovations of their own, like the PulseDive, built in vibration and LED, but until they are more innovative with the full machines outside of exterior build, many of us are going to feel much like you are. It has caused very mixed feelings in me. Yesterday’s presentation resurrected those feelings. Technologically, It felt like simply a duplicated and repackaged equinox. I think they are capable of their own contributions. I’ve seen their work in imaging. All companies borrow from each other and evolve. It’s just a question of to what degree and where the line is drawn. If Minelab feels anyone has crossed that line they have a way of letting them know. Time will tell. So far, nobody has sued NM that I’m aware of, so we have to assume that while it doesn’t make good optics, they are within their bounds.
  23. The price of the Legend is kind of shocking. I expected it to be maybe $100 cheaper than an Equinox 800, but over $300?! I’m a bit more suspicious than others about what NM is up to with moves like this. It’s nice to save $300, or in the case of Deus II $1000, if all else is equal, but what long term effect does this have on industry innovators? Is NM trying to raise the bar on competition, or purposely trying to make it unaffordable for them to compete and continue to innovate by adopting and then underselling the product. And personally I’ve never wanted everyone in the world to take up metal detecting, as I know what that does to our hobby, so making it more affordable is not appealing to me. I’m not rich by any means, and some sectors of this hobby are too expensive, but I’m fine with the price of admission and advantages being harder to come by. It’s taken me years to get where I am and I’m ok with that. So I think we have to ask ourselves a couple questions. Are these companies overselling us by that much or is NM trying to crush them with their own innovations? Is the truth in between even? Do we really want Metal Detecting to become so much more affordable and popular? While the new machines and things might seem good right now what are the long term effects of all of this for us and for those who take the expensive and time consuming chance to lead and innovate? Im kind of picking on NM here when both XP and NM have kind of repackaged Minelab’s technology and now selling it back to us. I’m just worried that the long term effect of this will be to make it not worth the bother to innovate. That this is a Walmart kind of maneuver. Come in, temporarily undersell, shut down the competition, raise prices back up after they are gone. I could also be way off base, IDK, but it’s been on my mind.
  24. I wonder if we will see as many spin offs and variations of multifrequency machines from NM as we have single frequency machines. I’d imagine they’d want to set their sights on the space between Simplex and Legend to better target Vanquish maybe. Simplex Multi anyone?
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