steveg

Daniel, Sounds like you know just what I'm talking about. We are not exactly "rural" but several miles outside of town. This is NOT the first time this has happened. SO when the guy never showed, I was disappointed, and a bit upset, but not totally surprised. But, when I saw the updated tracking info that said, "delivery attempted," that really pushed my buttons. I would be much more understanding of "look, it got really late, my shift was supposed to end hours ago, and after a 12-hour shift, I still couldn't get all of my packages delivered," versus "I'll just lie and say I 'tried' to deliver, and cover my rear end by blaming the customer by saying it's their fault -- they were not home...and that way I'll avoid getting in trouble with my boss..." Frustrating... Steve

It is indeed "signature required." If the driver actually shows up, I'll be ready... Steve

LOL -- I understand! Meanwhile, UPS seems to have decided -- despite my package being on the truck and "out for delivery" today -- not to deliver it. Sometimes, it gets late in the day, and our UPS driver just decides they are "done for the day," and today was one of those days. And now tracking shows "delivery attempted" (a complete fabrication), with delivery now re-secheduled for the next business day. So, we'll see if the driver decides to show up on Monday. Steve

Daniel, That's a pretty impressive hunt, given how you described the site and what you'd experienced on the last few trips there... WOW. Steve

Thanks, GB_Amateur! Steve

First Minelab product? You'll have fun learning! Steve

Dan, Sending you a PM... Steve

THANKS, Dan!

LOL, thanks! 😂 Steve

Holy cow! THAT'S the way to break in a new machine! NICE JOB! Steve

Does anyone know if the charging cord used with the MC the same one as used with the EQX 600/800? Are they interchangeable? Steve

Brad -- thanks for the kind words! It's good to know that a thing or two that I've written may have been helpful in some way. As for your "maiden voyage," sounds like a pretty good hunt, for being new to the machine. Impressive! Thanks Dan! I'm sure I'll have some thoughts, once I have some time to take it for a spin, a few times. I want to run it carefully through my test garden, but I think that's going to have to wait, as I want to get it out "in the field" first, and see how it behaves/sounds, relative to my Equinox. I'm HOPING the transition is fairly seamless... Steve

Congrats! You are DEFINITELY "all set!" Steve

Well, what do you know. I got a surprise message from my dealer tonight, that he'll be shipping my Manticore tomorrow... Now, at least, when I'm running my mouth too much on this forum, at least I'll actually be a Manticore OWNER, instead of someone pontificating about a machine I don't even own! 😉 Steve

Dave, Yes, your understanding is expanding! If one uses target trace for NO OTHER REASON than to determine, at a given site on a given day, where to set their Ferrous Limits to accomplish that day's detecting goals, then target trace is an extremely invaluable resource JUST FOR THAT PURPOSE (entirely separate from the whole "what shape is the plot" that everyone seems to want to focus on). To illustrate... Consider this entirely made-up scenario...you are asked to find a lost men's gold ring, in the front yard of the owner's house (which you expect to read as a "mid-tone" target). So, you start detecting. However, you soon realize that it's not going to be as easy as you'd hoped, as you are digging TONS of "mid-toning" roofing nails. You note that these particular targets are showing up at a specific location on the screen -- about halfway over (and thus why they are presenting a "mid tone"), and about halfway "up," i.e. halfway between the zero line, and the top of the screen (at the roughly "7" line, i.e. the horizontal line that passes through the "7" on the y-axis (FE = 7), or said mathematically, the line defined as y=7). So, while these nails are plotting about halfway between the "0" line and the top of the screen, you note that your Ferrous Limits are set JUST BARELY ABOVE the location where the nails are plotting (i.e. they are plotting just below the "grayed out" portion of the screen -- which thus explains why they are "mid-toning"). So, you then go into your menu, find your Ferrous Limits adjustment screen, and adjust it so that you move the "grayed out" portion of your screen down, just a little, SO THAT the nails then fall WITHIN the grayed-out portion of the screen. NOW -- those pesky roofing nails will NO LONGER REPORT A MID TONE, but instead will now give an iron grunt. And NOW, you can hunt more EASILY, while looking for that ring, listening for mid tones (and not being distracted by what WERE mid-toning roofing nails). While this is a simple example, such "strategic" use of Ferrous Limits, AND the fact that you can SEE what an adjustment of your ferrous limits does -- via the screen -- relative to the targets at your particular site, is of great benefit. It allows YOU to adjust, on the fly, site-specifically, to determine which targets you are wanting/intending to present audibly as iron, and which ones you are wanting to present audibly as non-ferrous, based on what types of junk targets happen to prevail at that particular site. YOU having that control over how the target is audibly identified, is a very interesting feature, from my view... Steve

Geordiedan, I hear you, on the cynical thought process, LOL! Yep, I have indeed mentioned this to NASA-Tom, and am hoping that MAYBE that could help this come to fruition. But, I think more people requesting it/talking about it would carry some weight also... Steve

I should note, though, that there IS a way to more directly figure out a "FE" number, for what that's worth. On the Manticore, the upper limits run from 0 to 14, and the lower limits run from 0 to 9. SO -- think about it in terms of an x,y coordinate system. This means that starting at the origin (0,0), and going UP the "y-axis," FE numbers go up to "14," while going DOWN the y-axis from the origin, FE numbers go down to "9." So, mathematically, if we consider 0 to 14 values going UP the y-axis as POSITIVE y values, and the 0 to 9 values going DOWN the y-axis as NEGATIVE y values (i.e. 0 to -9), then technically, we could know, or at least estimate based on target plot position, what the FE number is. If the target plots exactly halfway across the screen, in the "x" direction, the CO value is "50". In other words, your "x" value, is 50. Then, if the target also plots 1/2 way UP the screen (from the "zero line"), in the "y" direction, the FE value is "7". So, the ID would be 50 CO (your "x" value) and 7 FE (your "y" value), so your ID (as an x,y pair) would be 50-7 (CO-FE), OR, in the more traditional FBS style, where the "y" value (FE) is listed first, it would be 07 50 FE-CO (y,x). Meanwhile, targets plotting BELOW the "zero line" could be considered as having negative FE numbers. SO, for example, a target plotting halfway ACROSS the screen, and all the way at the bottom, would thus have an FE-CO ID of -09 50. (...for whatever this is worth, LOL) Steve

GB_Amateur, interesting thought, but I don't think there's a way to do this, for a number of reasons that would be too hard to explain in a concise way. Briefly, though, one issue is that yes, the "scale" is different, but moreso than just that, is that it's not a one-to-one relationship, in PART due to the fact that the underlying technology is different (FBS, vs. Multi-IQ), which means different targets will ID differently, just due to the nature/characteristics of the two different platforms. Consider a nail/coin mixed target (i.e. the two objects in close proximity), for instance. What the E-Trac may see as entirely a nail (with an ID of say 30-45), the Manticore on the other hand may see, very clearly, as two separate targets. SO, there'd be no way to make a "one-to-one" transposition of the target's ID, or its "plot location on the screen," from the E-Trac screen, to the Manticore screen. The underlying technology produces a different ID for the target... Make sense? BUT -- my suggestion is, instead of trying to figure out a way to "arrive at" the FE number through some "backdoor method," that we should simply press/request that Minelab offer (in a future software/version update) the OPTION on Manticore to display (if we choose to) BOTH ID numbers -- the FE, and the CO. WHY leave the FE number in the background, where we can't see it, with NO OPTION to "turn it on," even if we want to? I think EVERYTHING would be so much easier to understand, and to explain to others, if we could SEE BOTH the FE and CO VDIs, and thus see DIRECTLY how those two values relate to where a target is plotted on the 2D screen (and all the implications therein). As you said, if nothing else, having the numbers would be a good "learning tool" that would help with the understanding of what is going on, for new Manticore users (especially those without FBS background). For the life of me, I can't imagine why Minelab wouldn't have at least given us the OPTION to "toggle on" a FE-CO VDI readout, instead of forcing us into ONLY the CO VDI... Steve

Dan, PERFECT!! I am so glad that my post helped a bit, and yes, your understanding as I glean it from the quoted post, is precise/correct. You "get it," in a very "complete" way. SUPER! Steve

GB_Amateur -- EVERYTHING you said in the middle paragraph of your post (regarding limits, and tones, etc.) is exactly correct. You understand it correctly, and you explained it quite well. That paper from Bruce Candy is EXCELLENT. A very good read. Finally, to talk for a minute about what you said in your first paragraph... Essentially, I know what you are trying to ask, and so I will tentatively say "yes." I say TENTATIVELY, because essentially your "point" is correct, i.e. your logic/reasoning are consistent and reflect that you understand quite well conceptually. BUT -- I am not sure if understanding the way the Manticore works can be "applied back onto the Equinox" directly. In other words, I am not sure if the Equinox explicitly "calculates" a FE and a CO value "in the background," like the Manticore does. BUT -- I am thinking that it does NOT. IF IT DOES -- then, yes, what you said would be precisely correct. It would equivalent to saying that even with FE (or F2) set to zero, there was STILL some "iron bias applied," or -- in Manticore terms -- still some "Ferrous Limits" with "grayed out screen" in place, in the background. Because, of course, running FE or F2 at zero STILL allows some targets to report as iron. We can adjust for "iffy" or "mixed" targets on the Equinox to make it MORE LIKELY that we hear conductive tones mixed in with the iron tones (minimizing iron bias), or LESS LIKELY that we hear any conductive tones (i.e. mostly iron grunts) on the same target, by maximizing iron bias. BUT -- even set at ZERO, a nail can still report as a ferrous tone and ID. So, YES -- it is "as if" there is still some "iron bias" (or, in Manticore terms, "ferrous limits") in place, even though we've set FE/F2 to zero. We are delving a bit here to the fringes of my understandings of detector operation, BUT with that said, -- I will say that I THINK the Equinox leans just a little bit toward OTHER machines (though with plenty of DNA that it shares in common with the Manticore), with respect to the way it ID's iron, from the perspective that -- again -- I don't THINK the Equinox explicitly calculates both a ferrous and a conductive ID for each target, in the background. I may be wrong on this, but to me, I think about the way non-Multi-IQ/non-FBS machines will calculate JUST a single ID, and somewhere along the ID scale, the algorithm assigns a "break point" such that below that point, the machine calls the target "iron," and above that point, the machine calls the target "non-ferrous." And the way I think of "iron bias," (but which I know is not TECHNICALLY correct, it's just how I picture it in my mind), is that what you are doing by adjusting iron bias on the EQX, is adjusting slightly that "break point" the machine uses to call a target iron, vs. non-ferrous. This, again, is not technically correct, as I am essentially certain that what is in fact happening inside the guts of the EQX is that the multi-frequency approach is being used to get different "reads" of the target, in other words, sort of a somewhat "less explicit" FE and CO reading of the target as compared to what occurs in the Manticore or FBS where EXPLICIT FE and CO are calculated. And it is in this "less explicit" evaluation of FE and CO on the EQX that is where "iron bias" enters the picture. So, said a different way, I think EQX "kind of" reads FE and CO characteristics of each target, and we can "bias" the EQX's readings of these properties via the iron bias adjustment, BUT, that Manticore accomplishes a "more refined" or "more precise" examination of FE and CO properties of targets, assigning EXPLICIT values to both FE and CO. And that "more refined" examination of FE and CO then allows such things as the 2D screen, and the more "precise" adjustments that occur with "Ferrous Limits," as compared to iron bias. I hope this makes SOME degree of sense, what I'm trying to say, and is at least SOMEWHAT understandable. BUT -- I'll note that it is possible that what you assumed is actually quite correct, i.e. that EQX IS more "explicitly" calculating FE and CO in the background, and thus that iron bias is very much the same as "Ferrous Limits" on the Manticore, with the difference simply being that we just can't FULLY adjust iron bias to the degree that we can force ALL targets to ID as "purely non-ferrous" (as can be done on the Manticore). Steve

Geordiedan, Yep, I'm here, LOL! What you said above, in the part of your post that I quoted, is a correct understanding on your part. As I strongly suspected, and then was able to confirm, is this -- if the Manticore were run with a "fully open" screen (no discrimination, and Ferrous Limits set to ZERO) this would have the same effect as running a Minelab Explorer/E-Trac/CTX 3030 with a "fully open" screen. Which means, as you were corrrectly alluding to in your post, ALL targets, ferrous OR non-ferrous, would report audibly to the user as a "non-ferrous" target -- i.e. a "good target." For those who may be a bit confused by this, I'll explain, but I warn you that it will be long-winded, LOL! The REASON that with a fully "open" screen, all targets will report a non-ferrous audio tone, is that IN THE BACKGROUND, the Manticore is essentially calculating a ferrous ID, and a conductive ID, for each target, analogous to what FBS machines do. It's a bit more confusing, on the Manticore, because for some reason, Minelab does not allow us to SEE the FE-CO values directly (for a reason I will never understand). BUT -- with that said, the FE and CO IDs ARE being "calculated" in the background, for each detected target. Point being, each target DOES have a FERROUS ID, and a CONDUCTIVE ID, on the Manticore, and this is in my mind a key to understanding how the Manticore works. The other key to understand is that the AUDIO reported to the user, for detected targets is based off of the CONDUCTIVE ID -- UNLESS the target in question is discriminated, OR falls within the portion of your screen "grayed out" by your Ferrous Limits setting. (This is quite similar to FBS machine operation, when you have the machine set up with the sound profile of "conductive tones.") So, to elaborate on the implications of what I've said above...because EACH target detected by the Manticore is broken into its ferrous component AND its conductive component, then with a fully open screen (no discrimination, and limits set to zero), what would be reported in the audio is the conductive component of the target -- i.e. a non-ferrous tone (implying the target is a "good target"). So -- to repeat...if running NO Ferrous Limits, and NO discrimination on the Manticore, ALL TARGETS will report as "non-ferrous." This is important to understand...and wrap your head around, so as to fully grasp the logic, because understanding this logic fully will directly impact how you may wish to set the "Ferrous Limits" on your Manticore, in various scenarios. Continuing along this line of reasoning, the ONLY way the Manticore knows NOT to report an iron target as a non-ferrous object (again, due to the audio being based off of the CONDUCTIVE portion of the target) is by adjusting ferrous limits. When your ferrous limits are set appropriately, then an iron object -- which would otherwise report as a non-ferrous object if the screen were entirely "open," will NOW report as an "iron grunt" (assuming the ID of the iron target falls within the part of the screen that is "grayed out" by your ferrous limits setting). So, if this all makes sense, then the takeaway is that we have complete control, on the Manticore, as to where we place that "razor's edge" of a target reporting with either an IRON tone, or a NON-FERROUS TONE. And therefore, "limits" settings may be more important than some folks realize. Obviously the more we reduce Ferrous Limits (i.e. less screen grayed out), the more types of targets (iron OR non-ferrous) we will be "forcing" to report as a "good target" with a non-ferrous tone...but with the BENEFIT, potentially, of improved ability to unmask non-ferrous targets hiding in thick iron. On the other hand, INCREASING Ferrous Limits (i.e. more screen "grayed out") means that more targets will report audibly as iron, allowing us to tend to dig less "junk," BUT, with the caveat that some potentially GOOD targets (i.e. mixed nail/coin scenarios, for one) may then fall within the grayed-out screen (i.e. within your "Ferrous Limits") and thus report with iron audio, causing you to pass over the target without investigating it further. BOTTOM LINE -- understanding that all targets detected by the Manticore will have an FE ID and a CO ID assigned, and that ALL targets detected will report a non-ferrous tone to our ears, UNTIL we set our Ferrous Limits "appropriately," is what must be grasped to properly utilize the Manticore to its fullest. Until this is understood entirely, then it seems likely that the best way to approach things is to do what Chesroy said, above, which is to run factory default Ferrous Limits, until we understand the machine better, and then begin customizing (which will likely be site-dependent/trash dependent). Hopefully, this makes sense, as it can be confusing until you wrap your head around it (and this is why it's easier for folks familiar with Minelab FBS machines to understand the Manticore perhaps a bit more quickly, i.e. a "head start" on figuring the machine out, as GB_Amateur noted above...) FINALLY -- to bring this around to your original question, Geordiedan, what that particular user (Toddy) is doing in the video (though I haven't watched the video) is choosing to allow a vast majority of the objects detected -- including a good many of the iron targets -- report as a non-ferrous target. This will, of course, cause him to hear (and potentially dig) alot more "good-sounding" targets that are actually iron (again, due to the minimal Ferrous Limits settings), but on the other hand, will help him reduce the number of times the machine improperly assigns an iron tone to a potentially good target... Tradeoffs. Steve

Yes, it's hard to blame customers for seeking fast shipment, and low prices. HOWEVER, the ultimate result is indeed going to be just what you said -- no more full-service, independent dealers, which to me is not a good thing for the hobby... Different dealers do it differently. Some (some of the brick-and-mortar dealers) take delivery of the machines from their distributor, and then ship them out to their customers (and some will even check out each machine, prior to sending to their customer, to be sure all is well with it, etc.) Others, and probably moreso for these "backorder" situations, will ask the distributor to drop-ship the units directly to their customers, as soon as the distributor receives units from the manufacturer. Steve

Dan, Yes -- a bit of an "odd" size, BUT -- the wall thickness is then 1mm (based on your measurements, THANKS)! This (the wall thickness) is pretty standard, though the tube size is a bit odd... Steve

Interesting, strick. Thanks. Yes, I'd be curious to know the wall thickness...OR, if not a direct measurement of the wall, the O.D. measurement minus the I.D. measurement divided by 2 gives the wall thickness too, of course. Steve

Steve, Oh, yes -- I see your point now. I TOTALLY concur that partially masked targets (and FULLY masked ones, for that matter), abound, such that if you are not digging ANY iron, you are missing good stuff. I totally get that. And I get that even with the best unmasking unit (Deus probably?), you will still not detect a huge number of non-ferrous if you are in a heavily iron-polluted site. I'm with you there... And yes, I can see your point on the "leaps" that you have seen in your "detecting career." NO doubt, those things you talk about are indeed HUGE leaps. Leaps that dramatically "change the game" so to speak. I guess my only point was, we are at the point where it seems to me that the law of diminishing returns seems to now apply. Let's say it took 2 years of solid, high-level engineering to move from no discrimination, to discrimination. Huge leap, indeed. But today, since there's not that much blood left to squeeze from this turnip, 2 years of EQUALLY solid, high-level engineering may be required for much smaller technological advancements. Still noteworthy (generational?) advancements, it seems to me, from an engineering perspective, but since most of the "blood" is already squeezed, these current (and future) advancements seem to me to be much more unlikely to result in any MAJOR improvements that would be sufficient to "wow" the average detectorist (such as moving from no discrimination, to discrimination). In other words, I agree with you in that it's unlikely we see anything TRULY game-changing, until/unless we move to a different "platform." AND SO, we should all set our expectations accordingly, all marketing hype aside... 🙂 Steve