mh9162013

Great review!

And bummer on the battery life, especially given how finicky it is to charge and how it can't be charged in the field, while in use like the Equinox can (although I can't imagine what it would take to design a pinpointer that can be easily used while being charged).

The Pro-Find 35 has discrimination ability, but the ferrous and nonferrous sounds are very similar to each other...but then again, I don't have the best ears, so maybe it's just me.

3 hours ago, F350Platinum said:

I wonder why they bothered with "Boost",

My guess is that the boost setting might cause it to false more often. So by giving it a "boost" setting, people know it's not a setting they can rely on for most hunting conditions. This means less complaining from the customer when it falses.

7 minutes ago, F350Platinum said:

I tried a couple of fast charging cables, and the space the USB port is in probably intentionally doesn't allow a PD charger cable to be plugged in. I imagine that is a good idea since the device is not fast charging capable.

Just to clarify, any old USB-C charging cable will work, but third party "fast charging" USB-C cables won't work?

42 minutes ago, F350Platinum said:

It's 5v, and you can't just use any charging cable, you have to use theirs. 

So just any old USC-C won't work? Is it due to some mechanical modification they made to the USB-C cord or there's some unknown piece of electronics in their cord?

Also, how does it "closing range" or ratcheting compare with the Garrett Carrot?

19 minutes ago, phrunt said:

Yes, I never understood where this Dayus thing came from but I guess it's more to do with accents than anything, when pronounced in French it sounds more like Deuce.  I guess they didn't pick a very english friendly name for the detector as it seems to confuse many on how to say it.

It means god 🙂 I'm hoping the Deus 2 is a godlike detector.

Ha! 

Now it sounds like it's pronounced like a mix b/w "deuce" and "dee-oose."

Well, at any rate, it's not "day-us." Like you, I'm confused where the "day-us" pronunciation came from.

Looks like I'm the fool to assume an American can properly pronounce a french name/word. 🙄

It sounds like it's pronounced, "deuce," NOT "day-us."

TIL...

I liked the info about the bone conducting heaphones (BH-01). Although I wonder what advantages they have over "regular" bone conducting wired headphones (besides waterproofing).

2 hours ago, CPT_GhostLight said:

Interesting debate, but I have a question. Since all the SMF machines (except Vanquish) can also run in single frequency modes, why would you need a single frequency machine, except something highly specialized, like tuned to meteorites or something? I understand maintaining SF machines for the low end market, but as Jeff mention, with the Vanquish 340 coming in under $200 US, The low end SF machines might have to be in the sub $100-$150 range to sell after a while. As I see it (and I could be wrong), if you have one of the four SMF machines (not Vanquish), you have mutiple SF machines and a SMF machine in one unit. What else would you need, except maybe a PI machine?

I agree that if performance is everything (like Minelab "claims"), then I don't see the market for a SF machine except for extremely specialized types of detecting, old school detectorists (who'd probably buy secondhand, anyways) or the super-duper-budget-minded newcomers.

4 minutes ago, phrunt said:

do you see Garrett making the AT Max $299 like the Simplex or just discontinuing it when their AT Max Multi hits the market?

Honestly, I see them discontinuing it. But I could very well see them keeping it and drastically lowering its price.

If they do keep it, I think it should cost under $200, but knowing Garrett, I doubt that'll happen and your price of $299 is more likely.

And yes, the Simplex is currently a better value than the AT Max for most detecting situations. Heck, most machines are better values than the AT Max. I personally think the AT Max and AT Pro are some of the WORST detectors on the market in terms of what the consumer gets for each dollar spent. I'm both in awe and utterly disgusted by this fact.

9 minutes ago, phrunt said:

as soon as Garrett have a Multi Freaker AT Max nobody will care about the old AT Max except those that own it and see it's second hand value crash, it'll have it's price reduced or will no longer exist much like Nokta are doing with their single frequency machines now the Legend is coming.

See, I disagree. If we see a SMF AT Max, that doesn't have to mean the SF AT Max can't be effectively sold. I agree that Garrett may trim their SF line of detectors, but it doesn't mean the AT Max has to be one of the machines discontinued. Even if we see an amazing SMF AT Max that makes the Equinox look like a Tracker IV, the AT Max could still be easily sold. It'll probably sell for $199.99, but it could still be a great seller.

Isn't it understood that after the Legend's release the SImplex will still be sold by N/M? I thought I heard that somewhere, but I could be wrong.

When it comes to discussing obsolescence, I think people are focusing too much on what a machine can do without also properly accounting for how much it costs.

54 minutes ago, phrunt said:

Let's say Garrett released a Garrett AT Max Multi with improvements to their SMF since the Apex, how many people do you think would be walking into their dealer asking to buy the AT Max single frequency unit sitting on the shelf next to the AT Max Multi frequency unit, I'm guessing very few.  It's a numbers game and sales are what keep manufacturers in business, if they aren't selling product they're no longer viable. 

That's not the best analogy b/c you're comparing a single frequency (SF) detector against a SMF detector from the same company. This means the marketing influenes will be far different that a comparison of say, the AT Max to the Equinox.

In your hypo, it's quite possible that, assuming the SF AT Max is still being sold by Garrett, the way Garrett markets it will be far different than the way they market it now. I doubt they'll still tout it as the "ultimate" detector. 

My guess is that Garrett would either discontinue the AT Max or start marketing it as a "budget" all terrain detector.

I think at least a few SF machines may be around for a while, even if they undeniably become "obsolete." Just look at the Tesoros!

Another comparison might be photographers that use film. 

34 minutes ago, housmar said:

30 yrs later is a game changer to help or hinder you, depending on your knowledge and seriousness with detecting. I don't think it's perfected yet but a new page has turned.

This is a great point.

I got an Equinox 600 a few years ago and when I used it, I didn't see much of a difference in real-world performance companred to my decades old Fisher F2. But after a few years of detecting, the Equinox 600 compared to the Fisher F2 is like comparing a modern smartphone to a rotary phone.

So what's my point? My point is that SMF still has some ways to go. There I was, a budding metal detectorist with a little bit of experience under my belt. I get an Equinox 600 and I'm like, "ok, that's it?" In other words, even with a small amount of experience, I still couldn't appreciate SMF tech. Imagine how the average "civilian" would react in a similar situation.

This isn't to say a rookie is in the same boat with an Ace 250/200 as they would be with a Vanquish 440. But there's still a decent chance that without the right mindset, attitude and/or expectations, the 440 will still disapppint just as much as the Ace will.

When it comes to making a handheld discriminating metal detector, the Outlaw was probably my first choice. Heck, of all the Tesoros out there, the Outlaw would be my first choice. But after seeing what they go for on ebay, I felt it wasn't worth the cost.

3 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

Most people are likely getting tired of this topic already, and that assumes those who were even interested in the first place.  🙄

I'm reminded of something a mentor (not detector related) told me long ago:  Ugly/sloppy workmanship doesn't necessarily mean poorer performance, but those who take enough pride in their work to make things look nice tend to build better performing / more reliable devices.

So how does this apply here?  The question is, will the better looking, compact, easy to use Tesoro solution pay off in its ability to squeeze into tight places?  Peripherally, will I be more likely to make maximum use of the Tesoro because of its appearance?  Maybe.

I'm going to wait about half a day or so longer to see if anyone has something further to add before I go with my current leaning of just ordering the NEL Snake / CORS Shrew.  So far no one has taken on the concentric vs. DD question.  Basically, my thought is that you can move a concentric in any direction (left-right, forward backward) and get the same response whereas a DD coil has an azimuthal dependence because of its internal assymetry.  There are ways around this (just rotate the entire unit 90 degrees, or remount the shaft 90 degrees from standard orientation and rescan) but those aren't quite as easy/quick as just changing the sweep motion.

BTW, in playing around with the Tesoro Vaquero I discovered (something I'm sure many here already know) that the shafts of my White's TDI are compatible with the Tesoro Vaquero.  I don't know how many other models of those two companies this holds for, but I suspect quite a few.  So I can shorten the Vaquero shaft permanently but if I ever want to use that detector in its standard configuration then I'll just plug in the White's TDI lower shaft (of which I have a spare).

I agree that using the Micromax (uMax) form factor from the Tesoro Vaquero does look sharp...😎

I understand the Deus and AT Pro might be expensive options, but I wasn't sure what you budget was.

As for the Ziploc bag, that won't be as nice as a purpose-designed detector that's weatherproof,  but I get how it's a lot cheaper.

I wasn't sure if you needed discrimination and if so, how much you needed. But if you need a small amount, using a pinpointer probably wouldn't be a good option.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck!

A few thoughts.

One, do these units need to be extra durable or waterproof? I don't know how or where you'll be hunting, but being in tight and possibly damp quarters means getting at least a weather resistant machine might be something to consider? If so, maybe an AT Pro with the 4 inch hockey puck coil is an option? Or is that coil a DD?

Two, the F2's control box is fairly big. Not sure if you've used one before.

Three, how about a Deus with a specially modified sniper coil? More info here: https://md-hunter.com/sniper-5-coil-for-xp-deus-homemade-photos-video/

Four, how about a special pinpointer, like the N/M PulseDive or Quest Scuba Tector Pro with a special coil, attached to a separate shaft?

13 minutes ago, cudamark said:

Many members of our local detecting club (and I'm sure others) tend to be stuck in the past, with the attitude that "I've been doing it this way with this machine for over 30 years and I will keep doing it that way".

I understand how that attitude can be very annoying/frustrating. It's one thing to prefer Machine A over Machine B b/c Machine A has certain characteristics that someone wants. It's totally different to prefer Machine A over Machine B beause the user is just being close-minded. But to be fair, that attitude exists everywhere, even outside the metal detecting world. So I don't think it's a problem with the AT Max/Pro/Gold machines exclusively.

I wouldn't use the $5 Fisher F11 either. But if such a machine existed, it would do a lot to get more people involved in the metal detecting hobby and make it slightly less likely they'll quickly give up and quit compared to using some $50 or $100 "beginner's" model from who-knows-where.

15 minutes ago, phrunt said:

the country of production means far less to me than the performance of the product. 

Same here.

For the record, all else being equal, I try to buy products that are "made in the USA." But as you probably already know, that can be a complicated "definition" to meet.

58 minutes ago, phrunt said:

While I'm all for the "made in whatever county suits" way of thinking, it's just rarely competitive, it may look it on the price tag but the manufacturer is taking the hit to compete.   If you produce your product in a country with higher wages, infrastructure costs, component costs, freight costs and so on how are you going to be getting the same profit margin as companies that moved to offshore manufacturing for higher profits often located in cheaper to produce products countries like Turkey or Malaysia for example.

In some cases like Minelab the possibility better manufacturing techniques by using a 3rd party electronics manufacturing company that are geared up for mass production of high end electronics that would be difficult and expensive to do in-house.  In their case it made far more sense to contract out their electronics to a business that makes such things in large qualities for medical, military, space and other high end applications.  Why bother setting up a factory to do it yourself when you'd have trouble ever competing with companies like that which their sole purpose is producing high end electronics.  I'm sure if you had a peep inside the Whites factory or even the First Texas factory and then had a peep inside Plexus you'd be shocked at the difference. 

Sure I like the idea of "Made where ever I want" but I've accepted that if I want the best products at competitive prices this likely isn't the best approach.  All that extra money Minelab make with their cheaper method of manufacturing ends up in the companies coffers, some is likely used for R&D for better products, some goes to shareholders which in turn strengthens the company.   Minelab would have really struggled to keep production in Australia as it has some of the highest wages in the World, along with some of the highest costs for real estate, transport and so on.   Why pay 100k+ a year wages for a truck driver if you can pay $10k elsewhere.  Times that by hundreds of employees all across the business and you see why they do it.  Yes, that means some of the money ends up offshore, unfortunately that's the world we live in now, countries have priced themselves out of the market.

While some manufacturers in their homeland may make good quality products, they may also be lagging behind in technological advances as they just don't have the capital to fund them.

Yes I love the idea of everything being made at "home" but I accept it's not always possible and those that don't end up doing it may suffer the consequences.  It sure gives you the warm and fuzzies seeing that "Made in whatever country you like" and the little flag on the box though.

The offshore method isn't always the best and most reliable, look at the failure rates of the GPX 6000, something is up there.  All it takes is one bad component worth under a dollar though, not the fault of the factory assembling the electronics, but bad luck with a product sourced for that PCB.  Can and does happen to almost every major manufacturer at some point.

It's be said the fake T2's cost the Chinese about $30 USD to make for parts and production which I believe, I wonder what the build cost for the genuine T2 at the First Texas factory is, I bet a lot more than $30, it's hard to complete with that so at the moment companies like Minelab and Nokta have an advantage because of production costs.

Never underestimate the power of the "Go 'merica!" types. They are a powerful and influential set of potential customers, regardless of how much of their decision relies on reality or the perception of reality.

35 minutes ago, cudamark said:

S shaft? Not a fan, and neither are any of my detecting buddies. Straight carbon fiber shaft is the only way to go IMO.

AA batteries? Not for me anymore if I can avoid them. Cheaper in the long run to use the latest and greatest battery tech.

You need more coils than what is currently available? I don't use but half the ones I have now! (I have them all, both stock and the Coiltek ones) Multi IQ is so forgiving, that even using the largest coil can be used in most trashy areas once you get used to it.

Waterproofing, sure, I'll give you a slight edge on that, except in salt water where the AT's fail miserably

Made in America? OK....So only Garrett or Fisher for you? Are all their components made in America? I seriously doubt it. Everything has become so global these days it's hard to tell true made in America products anymore. 

Shallow coin targets, well, even a Walmart or Harbor Freight detector will find those, so, yeah, the AT will too.

Tot lot finds, Not in my book. I find much more with the Nox in a tot lot (mainly tiny items or deep items) than any other detector I've used, period. Not even close.

YMMV of course with different conditions, but, this is what I've found in my area and with the places and targets I detect.

Two things.

One, I wasn't speaking about just myself. You asked why anyone would want an AT Max, Pro or Gold (at least, that's how I interepreted your post). I gave some potential reasons that someone (not just me) might want one of those detectors.

Two, those factors don't matter to you and I wasn't trying to say they should. We all have different things that are important to us, whether dealing with metal detectors or anything else.

I'm not trying to convince you to buy an AT series detector. The biggest problem is what their MSRP is, not what they're lacking in.

For example, if the Fisher F11 cost $4.99, we would all be singing praises about what a wonderful machine it is.

1 hour ago, cudamark said:

why would anyone buy an AT of any model over an Equinox?

S-Shaft design

Use of AA batteries

Wider selection of aftermarket coils

Better waterproofing

Made in America (if that's important to you as a purchaser)

For coin shooting in mild ground (with little trash) and for shallow coins, I don't see an edge that Equinox has over the AT Max.

For coin shooting in a tot lot, the AT Max and Equinox perform the same or are so close to each other, I can't really see a difference.

If the AT Max/Pro were priced appropriately (around the Simplex), then I'd say it's a viable option for many metal detectorists.

1 hour ago, rvpopeye said:

I have a feeling that list will grow with that pic posted !

I have something similar I got at my local auto parts place. It's a tool for removing old style window crank handles and those little plastic push pins they use on plastic body parts these days. Kinda looks like a big tack puller...

(still no pic capability , sorry , hope I described it well enough) 

I lost my old giant antique screw driver on a detecting hunt in the woods.... this new tool has a hole drilled in the handle and a carabiner attached...

My pouch is an old small point and shoot camera bag that is on my "toolbelt" (think batman's  belt) .   I don't get much to fill those big bags but hope to have to upsize some day.... my trash goes in a plastic grocery bag also hung on the belt when it starts getting too full to fit in a cargo pocket of my shorts or fatigues.

I may custom make it for myself , I have crude leather/cordura sewing skills. I use a device called a Speedy Stitcher .(I saw one at a Walmart recently) 

 

 

 

Is this it?

https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/molding-and-trim-remover-tool/p/dorman-help-trim-removal-tool/103001_0_0

4 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

If it works for you, then it's special.  I have one of those (just bought recently) and I like it.  I had my seamstress wife modify it by mounting the belt loops low, hidden behind.  But as some have already pointed out, high as delivered is preferred by many.

I did some sewing myself to reinforce the belt loops a bit where they attach to the pouch.

I don't like how the pouch slides around so much on the belt, though. But short of it being permanently attached to the belt I don't think there's an alternative.

Nothing special about mine:

23 minutes ago, UT Dave said:

Lots and Lots of iron hitting high 30's.

That's interesting.

The only time I got iron getting that high (or high enough that I thought I was going to get a coin, only to get a rusted hunk of iron junk) was after a rain, when my soil was moist/damp. And I was hunting with a Vanquish 540 with its Iron Bias set on "high." Actually, it rarely got into the 30s, but did get into the low 20s on many occassions. And on the 540, this was prime penny territory for me.

You also mention how iron is a "constant attack" on the ears. But what targets are you gunning for? Silver coins, right? If so, those sounds should be much louder and higher pitched than the iron, right?

Maybe it's b/c I am coming from a Garrett AT Max, but sometimes, when I'm hunting (for coins, most often) I'll be swinging along my merry little way and forget that I've pressed the Horseshoe button. So all targets are being accepted, but I almost don't notice that.  And this is true even when the iron is relatively thick, such that I'm getting "machine gun fire" low-coductor hits on my Equinox 600. So the iron signals sound like soft thuds compared to the high tone of a copper penny, dime or quarter.

All of that being said, this is one reason why, for now, I have F2 set at 0. I don't mind hearing the iron signals if that means there's less of a chance of masking going on. Of course, I don't deal with iron like you, but my point is that even if I did, the constant iron signals aren't that bad. But again, maybe that's b/c I'm coming from a Garrett AT Max with its overpowering low tones. And note that I haven't messed with any of the tone settings in my Equinox 600...and these settings are far more limited than what you have with the 800.