mh9162013

1 hour ago, nickeldNdimed said:

So the answer is yes? And the F2 as well?

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're asking?

If you're asking about selling the AT Max, then yes, I'm most likely going to sell it. If you're interested in buying it, let me know 😄

As for the Fisher F2, no, I'm keeping that one. It's a very sentimental gift and was my first metal detector.

I'm not surprised you're gravitating to the Vanquish. If the Vanquish could ground balance, I'd probably never have sold my 540. For shallow hunting in my highly mineralized soil, it does fine (for the most part). But if I want to go deeper than 6 inches or so (depending on the soil profile), it struggles.

I love the look and feel of the Vanquish, especially with its cam locks. I've been brain storming how to somehow replace the control box of the Vanquish with the pod of an Equinox without it looking too janky.

I know some people mock the Vanquish's red color, but I like it! I don't like how Minelab can't get their plastic dyes to be consistent, but that's the cost of a cheap detector having MIQ, I guess.

1 hour ago, Rick N. MI said:

I don't know which coils you were using. To do best in iron sites and nail board tests you need small coils. With the AT Max the 5x8 coil would do a lot better. To do even better with the AT Max use a Nel 3.5x6.5 or 5" coils.

I have no doubt a smaller coil would help the AT Max. But then I'd need to put a 6 inch or 5x10 coil on the Equinox to make things somewhat "fair."

59 minutes ago, DIG5050 said:

Nice test methodology, mh9162013.

I’d like to replicate this test with my Apex.  I have 5 x 8, 6 x 11,  and 8.5 x 11 coils for the Apex. Now that colder weather is here,  It might be interesting to see what results might be obtained with Apex and its various coils . I  have a couple of questions regarding your test procedure:

1. Approximately how far did you hold the coil above the nail board while swinging?

2. When choosing the sensitivity adjustment, you chose 2/8 for the AT Max, and 10/25 for the ‘Nox.  Would 3/8 or 4/8 for the AT Max and Vanquish yield any different results? Your thoughts are appreciated. 

Thanks for your efforts and diligence in testing your detectors.  

Thanks!

1. I held the coil about 1 inch above the nail board. The sweeps were of "moderate" speed. I have no way to quantify this, but it's certainly in line with how I see people swing their coils in their YouTube videos. When "homing in" on a potential target, I will shorten and slow my swing. But when scanning a wide open spot, I will swing at a faster rate. This faster rate is the speed I used for my testing.

2. That's a good question and I don't know the answer to it. I choose lower sensitivities because I was indoors and I know the AT Max can be quite chatty sometimes. And if I recall correctly, the Equinox user manual says to lower sensitivity to 5 or 10 when testing inside.

Usually, a 3 out of 8 on the sensitivity scale is enough to keep the AT Max quiet, even in Zero mode. But I also know 2 out of 8 is more than enough sensitivity when hunting tot lots for coins when targets are within 5 inches of my coil.

If I had to guess, I would say that increasing the sensitivity of the AT Max wouldn't help. And if it did, it would be minimal. Monte's Nail Board is designed to test a machine's ability to avoid iron masking. So any improvements would need to come from a better recovery speed and/or greater separation ability, neither of which (to my knowledge) are significantly affected by sensitivity, although I could be wrong.

I'm confident that if I gave the AT Max the 4.5 inch hockey puck coil or the 5x8 coil, it would have performed better. I don't think it would have matched the Equinox 600 (or maybe it would have, but that wouldn't be a fair comparison, putting a 4.5 inch or 5x8 coil up against an 11 inch coil), but perhaps it would have been close to the Vanquish 340. I was very surprised by how well the 340 performed, then I realized it was using the V8 coil.

10 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I only test to satisfy myself, and applaud you not only doing that, but compiling and sharing your results with us. Monte offered to send me a genuine 100% for sure calibrated test board recently, but I declined, as I have my own rigged up with square nails. It’s not standard, but tells me what I want to know. I don’t hunt often where there are clean store bought round nails in the ground, so I prefer my version.

I guess the idea is we are all supposed to use the perfect Monte board, do tests, publish results. Then some master wizard will be collecting and compiling all these results to create a master list of detector comparisons. Nice idea, except that I don’t accept the main premise, which is that the Monte test board represents anything more than a sliver of reality. Passing or failing the test really should not condemn any detector per se. Something to take in to account, sure, but it’s not the final arbiter of what makes a detector good or bad. Detector can fail this test, yet still perform just fine in your typical park setting, or especially beach scenarios. Slow recovery often can equate to max depth, so some deep seekers will fail this test out of hand. Does that make them no good?

 

Thank you and great points.

Even for me, this test isn't the end-all-be all. I did some testing in my yard and local park. The results weren't as obviously in favour of the Equinox 600, but the advantage the Equinox 600 had over the AT Max was clear in terms of VDI stability, depth and overall ease of use.

By ease of use, I'm referring to how easy or not-annoying it is to use each machine.

The best analogy I have right now in comparing the AT Max and Equinox 600 when it comes to hunting in places I like to hunt (parks and yards) is like trying to complete a jigsaw puzzle. With the AT Max, it's like doing it without your glasses (assuming you're near-sighted). You can do it, but it's slow(er) going. With the Equinox 600 and its recovery speed and improved target recognition (thanks to SMF), it's like doing the jigsaw puzzle with your properly prescribed glasses. 

51 minutes ago, ColonelDan said:

How many times have you been caught in the rain or dropped your detector in a puddle of water?  Even if you are a land hunter and never go near any water, replacing a damaged or inop machine due to moisture intrusion isn't a trivial thing.

Agreed!

I can't count how many times I've set my detector down on grass soaked with dew, only have have it tip over and get the control box wet.

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

I like your documentation in particular.  Also you basically have a standard (modified from the original but still easily repeated by someone else).

Would you remind us of which coils were on each of the three detectors?  Also, what settings (particularly Recovery Speed and Iron Bias on the Eqx -- I don't know the other detectors' settings options but if they have similar 'knobs' then those, too)?

I see you used (two) 16d nails instead of 20d.  I assume you didn't have the larger size, but better if you could get some.  Every hardware store should have them (and if not I'd find a better hardware store 😄).  This doesn't negate your test but staying as close to the MNBT setup (and only modifying those things you want to improve -- here adding the 3rd dimension for location of the good target) is preferable.

Bottom line is that for the detectors, coils, and settings used, you were able to discern the best performer.  Mission accomplished.

The Vanquish used the V8 coil.

The AT Max used the stock coil (8.5 x 11").

The Equinox 600 used the stock coil (11").

As for the Equinox 600's settings, they were the default settings in Park 1, EXCEPT, I reduced the sensitivity to 10 and the Iron Bias was reduced as much as I could (which means I left Fe alone and reduced F2 to zero). And if I recall correctly, in Park 1, the recovery speed is 3 (maxed out).

And no, I didn't use the right sized nails. So the ones I had weren't large enough, nor were they small enough (I had to cut some down). So I get this test isn't the most replicable by others (which is one of the primary reasons for Monte's Nail Board). However, I only did this test to compare my detectors; as long as I was consistent between my machines, that was good enough for me.

Online sellers are fine to use, but to make sure they're on the up and up, check to see if they're authorized sellers.

Minelab's website should have a list of its authorized sellers. I think you can search that list by country.

 

Very little difference between the Ace 300 and 400 I found, they come with a different coil with the Ace 400 having the 8.5″ x 11″ DD PROformance  and the 300 having the 7″ x 10″ concentric PROformance, didn't bother me as I was going to run mine with the Nel Tornado and it all depends if you prefer concentric or DD.

The other difference is no iron audio on the 300 which the 400 has, if it's anything like the iron audio on my AT Gold I don't want it anyway.

The other difference is the frequency on the 400 is 10kHz and 8kHz on the 300, for me personally I prefer 8kHz, it's the same as my Ace 350 which is also 8kHz and I find it a deep frequency on silvers, the 10kHz I have on my Nox so it's nice to have something different.

The Ace 300 / 400 is probably a decent detector for using the Detech for shallow targets after an event.  The 400 would possibly hit smaller gold items a bit better than the 300 I guess.   I wonder if the Detech will be cheaper for the Ace than a higher end detector, Nel tend to do that with Ace coils being cheaper than AT Gold coils.

Good to know, thanks!

 

ACE 200 basic detector class ACE has numerical VDI but does not have Pinpoint ... if you want to have pinpoint you need ACE 300 ... I have ACE 400 ....

I never use the pinpoint function on metal detectors. Well, sometimes, if I'm bored...

 

If switching to an Ace you really need a 300 or 400, forget the 150, 250 or 350, they only have target segment notches and not target ID.  My Ace 300 is so much better than my Ace 350.

If you're in soil with not crazy amounts of junk and accept you'll miss masked targets the Ace is really good, it's a deep machine with the right coil on it, tones are door bells so you'll get some crazy looks from the general public using it unless you have headphones, no volume control exasperates the doorbell problem.

Fixed ground balance of course so it depends on your location how well it'd do, for me here the Ace is a very effective deep silver hunting detector, far more so than the Simplex, it's actually really good for the task and can keep up with the best of 'em in a low trash environment but it is susceptible to EMI around here, so location with less EMI matters too as the frequency shift on it doesn't shift enough to help much and lowering the sensitivity takes away the depth quite quickly.

The Ace is just simple and effective in the right environment and my Ace 300 is a real contender to get this Detech coil.

If I got the Arrow coil, it would be to find coins that are only a few inches deep; I wouldn't expect it to find coins deeper than 3 inches in my soil. So I'm not too worried about the lack of ground balancing.

As for which Ace to get, that's good to know about the models lacking the VDI/TID. But it looks like even the Ace 200 has a VDI. It's almost as if the Ace 200 is like a single frequency Vanquish 340.

If I am in the market for an Ace, I'll make note to avoid the 150, 250 and 350.

 

Patience and opportunity is key!

Tell me about it!

And that's a great deal you got on the Simplex and Ace 300.

 

 

This is a similar decision for me but the delta between the value of the ACE and the Simplex is likely not worth going for the ACE I think. Similar to another recent discussion on the you might still be able to get someone to pay a lot more for a used Max than a Simplex for whatever reason.  I doubt there will be a difference in the price of this coil between the two so I am leaning towards the Simplex. 

Used Garrett Aces are a dime a dozen. If someone in my area is selling one, I'm sure I can get an Ace 150/200 for $75-$100, Ace 250/300 for $100-$125 or an Ace 350/400 for $125-$150. I'll have to be patient, but for those prices, I'll pass on the Simplex. Of course, if I find a used Simplex for really cheap, I'm open to buying that, too.

 

Everyone is going to have a different prioritized list.

Agreed

 

Why the Ace if you already have a Max?  I ask because my two current options on the list are an Ace 300 and Simplex. My Simplex would be most similar to the Max in this case in features and frequency so curious why you would make that choice. 

B/c I can sell the AT Max, buy an Ace, then still have cash left over.

 

Those of you who are just speculating are really making something out of nothing

From an engineering perspective, it's always better to reduce the complexity of a given system, that's all I'm saying.

But there are 2 views to this. Reducing 2 batteries to 1 has its advantages. But so does avoiding an extra wire and attachment points (plug and receptacle). So as I said before, there are benefits and drawbacks to wireless coils.

Is it a big deal in practice for most Deus users? Obviously not. But I understand the negative sentiment with having 2 batteries to charge instead of one. 

 

Don't forget about charging pinpointer, gas in the truck, water etc lol.  This has to be a joke right ? The deus is no more trouble than changing 8 AA batteries all the time and needing 9 volts for tesoro and pinpointer. It's way less trouble for me to charge a few things instead of running out and buying batteries.  Just my opinion 

You're mentioning things that have no other option. There's no vehicle or pinpointer that you can operate without replenishing its power source (whether you're swapping out a battery, filling the fuel tank, plugging it in, etc.). But there are plenty of metal detectors where you don't have the charge or maintain the coil and its lithium battery.

Is it a big deal? No, but why add more work when you don't have to (assuming the Deus has a comparable alternative to suit your hunting needs)?

 

I didn't expect this coil would be used in the water. I can't image swinging it in the water either. 

Your metal detector using this coil will double as a paddle, so of course it's designed to be waterproof. 😄

Hmmm...

I really want one of these coils, but so far, the Equinox 600 is eating my AT Max's lunch.

Maybe if I sell my AT Max, I should replace it with an Ace...there are alot of used ones for sale online...

 

I can't understand the logic of being put off having to charge the wireless coils, what if you forget to charge your Equinox, still the same issue of being a non starter??

 

 

Adding another thing to charge means twice the work to get your machine fully charged, including increasing the chance of forgetting something. It also means roughly doubling the opportunitiy for electrical or mechanical failure. Then there's doubling the battery replacement costs.

Also, there are plenty of stories of people heading out to a hunt with only a partially charged Equinox but they thought it was fully charged. It's not like they can just pop out a few AA cells or 9V batteries and get going again. And operating the Equinox with a battery bank attached isn't the most ideal situation (added weight, more wires, lost waterproof ability, etc.)

I don't think having a wireless coil is as bad as some people seem to think. But I do understand and relate to the opposition of a wireless coil.

Like many other things in life, there are advantages and disadvantages.

 

It's a popular seller at Jaycar too, people are getting ripped off all the time buying it, a number of them end up second hand on our online marketplace with people trying to redeem their money.

This is a very common occurrence here in the US, with many people spending $100-$200 on what they think is a quality detector, then getting quickly frustrated with it and selling it (or at least trying to sell it) in online market places.

 

I N F L A T I O N!!!!🤬

   I don't like saying that word Mike!! Please don't make me say it again!!😂

   But I must say, that the Florida real estate market is booming! Thanks for that, Joe!! (as i just sold my house!!🤑) 😂👍👍

Inflation is definitely an issue,  but that's not the primary explation for why so many used metal detectors having excessive asking prices.

 

If high asking prices bother you

High asking prices don't bother me. Ignorance bothers me.

But then again, this just goes to show how effective Garrett's marketing strategy has been...

So you were the metal detecting equivalent of Soler or Rosario, eh?

I used to collect baseball cards and one of the reasons I stopped was b/c the team I collected for (Braves) were probably the most in-demand cards after the Yankees and Red Sox. So you might have a chance to sell that hat for a profit!

Great finds by the way!

 

It's whatever the market will bare

But that's what's wrong here. People are asking for prices that aren't what the market will bear. If that were the case, I'd tip my hat to the sellers and wish them good luck! I've seen this with video game systems.

About 7 years ago, I bought a Nintendo Wii (used) for $7. Now, that same system sells for $60-$100. I know COVID plays some part in this, as does an aging population that grows nostalgic for new things. I don't like it, as I've been looking for certain used video games from my childhood to collect, but can't bear to pay the asking price. But again, it's a supply-vesus-demand situation and I respect that.

But they're asking for $400 or $500 for a used AT Pro and wondering why it's still for sale after 12 weeks? That's just the seller being ignorant.