mh9162013

6 minutes ago, phrunt said:

I don't know why I just think the XP version will be better than the Nokta version.... I guess we'll all find out soon.

Perhaps it's because the Deus, despite it's age, is still considered a high-end machine.

When N/M is mentioned on message boards, it's likely most often with respect to the Simplex. The Simplex's greatest strength isn't its technology, but the value of what you get for each unit of currency you spend.

So no, you're not the only one who assumes the Deus II will outperform the N/M SMF offering.

9 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Anything that affects the signal strength, including coil anomalies, EMI, other targets under the coil (including dished out targets) will affect the “depth reading.”

Could mineralization in the soil have an effect? In many of the parks I hunt at where I see this issue, I'm often digging clad coins straight out of mineralized clay.

I love coinshooting, and I'm often in my local parks or private permissions searching for clad and silver coins. But I noticed that when digging up shallow clad coins (3 inches or less), my AT Max with the stock coil would say the coin is 6 inches down. Sometimes, a surface coin would read at being 4 inches deep. I didn't think this was that big of a deal, b/c I could always pull out my F-Pulse and see if the assumed coin target was truly shallow or not. Also, the incorrect depth reading wasn't keeping me from digging a desired target.

Tonight, I read:

 and

http://www.fisherlab.com/hobby/davejohnson/SearchcoilfieldshapeApril2012.pdf

Both of these mentioned anomolies or issues with DD coils and shallow targets. Is what I'm experiencing with my shallow coins and AT Max one of these anomolies? Or is there something else going on?

Yeah, that certainly wasn't the most neutral comparison video ever. Still an informative video.

22 hours ago, abenson said:

I wonder what they plan to price this machine at? Hopefully not a couple grand. I can possibly see it pushing $1500 to put it above the Deus. But it could also replace the Deus. And it will most likely be priced above the ORX.

Then you also have to consider the competition, mainly Minelab! The Equinox is submersible, the Deus 2 likely will not be submersible but may be weatherproof. So maybe it will be priced closer to the 800. I'd be happy to see a price around $1000

If it's priced around $1,000, that would be pretty sweet (although I expect it to be closer to $1,500). That's still too high for me, but it's close enough to the Equinox 800 to impose some serious competition...assuming it performs well, of course. But based on what people say about the Deus, I expect the Deus II to be competitive with other SMF machines.

10 hours ago, rexhavoc said:

Well, that's fun and all, but I think this would be more practical: 

BAE Titan XD

Assuming it doesn't tip over!

14 minutes ago, Valens Legacy said:

Now having to wait another 5 years to actually get one

Apparently, they plan to make their first deliveries in 2022.

But I hear ya on the potential for vaporware...

Now that's what I call a teaser!

Definitely a lot of competing interests in these types of situations. But like you recognize mn90403, it's not easy to find lost items.

I get the "but I'm the rightful owner, so I deserve to get it back" interest. But if treasure hunters can't at least keep a % of what they find, they'll be motivated to either stop hunting or do it in secret so they don't need to report anything. In either situation, te rightful owner gets nothing. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have the option of paying a finders fee to get my lost item returned than have no option of ever getting it back.

Even with a law that allows finders to keep a certain % of what they find, some finders will still try to hide their finds so they keep 100% of it. However, they will be in violation of the law and have to constantly worry about what happens if they get caught. Sure, many unscrupulous people can live like that, but I think a lot of people would be motivated to follow the law if that means sleeping better at night. Kind of a tangent, but I think this is why organized crime isn't what is used to be. There are so many ways to "game the system" in a legal manner, why would a "wise guy" break the law to earn $1,000 when they can abide by the law and earn $950? I'm no expert in organized crime, but there's definitely a price to pay by breaking the law, even if you never get caught.

9 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

I owned an F44 for awhile. I really liked it but........it is still an entry level detector. Compared to the Simplex  which has similar operating features not to mention the many features that the Simplex has which the F44 doesn't have, it's not remotely a contest. The similarities between the Simplex and T2 is much closer feature and performance wise. I used to just put a plastic sandwich bag over my F70/Patriot when it rained. I did the same with a T2 that I tried. EMI was just too bad in my area for using the T2. The plastic bag worked for me just fine along with the many control box covers that are available. To me, an F44 is mostly a sideways move considering you have an F2.

The 5X8 coil is the way to go in my opinion (or a small coil from Nel/Cors or Detech) along with trying some of Ken's ground balancing and sensitivity suggestions.

That's good to know about the F44. Thanks again for your help.

7 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

As far as Monte’s Nail Board Test, the Equinox setup optimally will do just fine. My video showed that it is very capable. So is the Simplex and some of the other Nokta Makro detectors like the Racer series and the Impact and the FORS series. I named those Nok/Mak detectors knowing your preference for user replaceable AA batteries and the Teknetics T2, Patriot/F70 and the F75 do very well on Montes test also. They can handle both iron trash and modern aluminum trash better than the AT Max, AT Gold and AT Pro from my experience.

So again, I asked all of those questions earlier to find out what your soil conditions really are. I did not want to intrude, but knowing what part of your state you live in would help. Kentucky is known for having very good soil which is not known for high iron content. The  West Central part of the state does have some high carbon content from coal sediments.

In the last 20 years of living and detecting mostly in Colorado, I have gone through a litany of over 30 detectors in order to find one that would give me consistent results at various depths and be versatile enough to handle beach, water, coins, jewelry, relics, gold prospecting and especially high iron mineralization. The Equinox 800 and 600 check those boxes for me very well. They may not be optimum for you or anyone else. I do keep a Deus for relic hunting and gold prospecting in really bad iron contaminated sites and for its easy back packing and ergonomics at high altitudes. I also am totally delighted with Garrett’s Gold Master 24K. From my experience and weeding out process, it has to be the best VLF smaller nugget gold prospecting detector on the market today and it works great for micro jewelry too. 

Thanks for your advice about the N/M models. I haven't done much research on them, but from the videos I've seen online, their sounds don't sit well with me.

As for the T2/F70/F75 models, I strongly considered them as they seemed to have great recovery speed and target separation. But they aren't waterproof or even weather proof. After having to end a few hunts due to rain with my Vanquish and detecting once or twice in a heavy downpour with my AT Max, I don't want to use a detector as my primary machine unless it's at least weatherproof. I guess a Fisher F44 is an option, but I don't think they're worth the money. Although maybe I'll find a great deal on one on Facebook Marketplace...

I live in western Kentucky, so there's a lot of farmland. But when it comes to yards and parks, there's always the clay. The only question is how much less-mineralized soil is on top of the clay. In many parks that I hunt, there is no soil on top of the clay. In the others, there's plenty of milder soil,  but it's almost always fill dirt with a ton of trash in it. 

I think right now, I'm going to work on a making Monte's Nail Board and run some tests on all my machines. If I can bring myself to spend the money, I'll also get a 5x8 coil for the AT Max and an Equinox 600 and test those, too.

Thanks for your insight, Jeff, much appreciated.

28 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

1. As Ken correctly stated, the F Pulse is a Pulse Induction pinpointer. It can however go crazy in iron high mineralization. Mine will beep quickly and incessantly in some areas that I detect especially if the soil is extremely dry or wet and no amount of retuning will help. The only recourse is to lower the sensitivity level manually and even on low mine will keep beeping sometimes. 

Sounds like your "issue" with the F-Pulse is different than mine as I'm always able to avoid the slight beeps by turning my F-Pulse on with the tip touching the soil. The Garrett Carrot also has this issue with my clay, although only when on max sensitivity. I almost always hunt with my F-Pulse in medium sensitivity.

28 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

2. The high conductor target responses of your Vanquish when the clay layer is wet is just pretty extreme and sounds like its very limited ground balance compensation cannot handle the clay layer when wet and is high toning to indicate it won’t ground balance. Otherwise, that is bizarre.

Yes, it is odd. I remember taking my Vanquish (540 with the V12 coil, back then) in my backyard after a recent rain and literally every few yards, I was getting a quarter VDI (low 30s and upper 20s). I dug about 5 holes and every time, there was nothing by soggy clay. And the most frustrating thing was that these ghost signals were sharp and distinct, indistinguishable from a coin signal.

28 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

3. If your Vanquish is basically blind to anything in the clay layer……..that might be fixed by having an Equinox and manually ground balancing it with a ground grab often.

I agree, 100%. And this is the primary reason I sold my 540 (but still have the 340) and got the AT Max. So my AT Max with ground balancing is able to see targets in or around this clay better than my Vanquish can. It's probably not as good as the Equinox, but it's good enough for me (maybe ignorance is bliss). But this current concern about the AT Max's difficulty seeing through trash is not good enough for me.

28 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

I have read most of your posts. I still am not convinced that you have high IRON mineralization in your area. You may have a different type of mineralization happening however.

You may be right. I have no idea what kind of high mineralization I'm experiencing, but w/e it is, it's high enough to create significant problems with my Vanquish 540 such that I sold it and effectively traded it in for my AT Max.

38 minutes ago, kac said:

Your F-Pulse should be blind to the mineralization as it is a pi pointer. If it is falsing then that may be from emi. I have both the ML Profind 35 and Nokta Pulse Dive Pointer. There are places here the PF will false on the ground and often from bits of coal but the Nokta doesn't see bits of coal. I tend to like the PI better but it lacks sensitivity to tiny stuff like earings.

For bad soil I hunt in areas that are swampy or on edges of wetlands that have bog iron which is a layer of rusty crap. All my vlf's behave the same and my buddies Nox reacts the same way where depth id junk until you scrap a bit of top off. Mineralization will show in the mid to high 90's. Other issue we have here especially in many of the lakes is we have a lot of smokey quarts that is loaded with iron. Moderate ground is 80's.

With that being said if you have a top soil layer that is active with earth worms and a clay layer below then likely your very lucky as the clay line will be where stuff will settle and not lower unless man has been there turning or moving dirt around. Targets would have to have quite a bit of weight and there would have to be a lot of activity to make something sink into the clay.

I think if you can't wait, the smaller coil for either your Vanquish or AT Max would do the trick for you and just make it so much easier to isolate targets.

I agree that my F-Pulse falsing is a bit odd. You're right, it could be EMI or something other than the mineralization, but I think it's the soil. I say that because the F-Pulse will be silent until the tip of the pinpointer gets within an inch or so of the ground. Then it gives the "slight" beep of a potential target that's barely within range. But when I retune it (or reboot it) with the tip touching the ground, this problem goes away.

As for my soil profile, you're on point. Depending on where I hunt, the clay layer is either exposed to the surface (many parks I hunt at are like this) or it's covered by 1-4 inches of dark, mild soil filled with earthworms. Unfortunately, I've found plenty of coins (all clad) within the clay. But these were in areas where the clay was exposed to the air or there was 2 inches or less of soil before you hit the clay.

I run my Vanquish (340) with the V8 coil, but I haven't noticed that big of an improvement over the stock Garrett AT Max coil in the limited times I've hunted with it in the same trashy areas where I first used my AT Max. But then again, I have a feeling that no matter what coil size you use, if the ground is so trashy that swinging a coil in zero discrimination mode sounds like machine gun fire, you're gonna struggle with the trash. I'd say about 1/3 to 1/2 of the places I normally hunt are this trashy.

3 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

How do you know that your soil has high mineralization?  Did you contact your local Agriculture station or another soil testing agency?  You do not own a detector with an Fe3O4 meter as far as I know. Does your Vanquish 340 get good depth with stable and accurate target IDs on 4” or deeper mid conductive targets like US nickels and pull tabs? Does it give ground feedback in the -9 to -7 range when swinging over target free ground at the end of each swing or when you slowly pump the coil?

I know it has high mineralization because:

1. The clay layer will make my Garrett Carrot and F-Pulse false (unless I touch the tip of either on the soil when turning them on).

2. The clay layer, when wet, will ring up as a quarter or dime on the Vanquish.

3. My Vanquish is basically blind to anything located in the clay layer.

4. My Vanquish, when pressing the horseshoe button, will read in the negative numbers (more than -1 or -2) no matter what part of the ground I'm swinging my coil over.

5. My AT Max's GB reading is usually in the 80s and sometimes low 90s.

If you ready my post history, it's pretty clear I have highly mineralized soil. 

1 hour ago, kac said:

There are some new SMF's coming out that may do better than the Nox, XP is rolling one out and Nokta. Personally I would hold up on buying any machine until I see how those perform.

I do agree the Max can be tough in very trashy areas, even my AT Pro is similar in that aspect though small coils make significant difference. I have been doing well with the Apex. Not sure if you would like the audio on that but it handles iron infestation and trash very well.

Good point on the other SMFs machines. However, XP's offering is likely going to cost my soul to buy. N/M's offering will probably be affordable, but it'll probably has some growing pains I'd like to avoid. But even if my predictions are correct, there may be a slight influx of used Equinox 600s and/or 800s on the resale market, so perhaps it's worth waiting, whether to buy a used Equinox or new N/M...

As for the Apex, I've heard it struggles in mineralized soil, so that's a no-go for me. It also has a built-in battery. But if I'm able to find a used one for very cheap, I'll consider it. The cheapest I ever saw for a used Apex was $250 and that was still too rich for my blood.

Right now I'm leaning towards buying a used 5x8 AT coil and running my battery of tests on all my machines and their various coils (the Fisher F2 has a 4 inch sniper coil, for example). I can run these tests while I wait for an opportunity to test an Equinox on the nail board (perhaps someone from my local MD group will let me borrow a machine. But I don't know if it's worth getting COVID to do that...)

I've never undersood the policy reasons for not letting treasure hunters get a percentage of the value of what they find. They only reason I can think of is that if something belongs to an owner, it always belongs to them unless some law or legal theory says otherwise. So I guess that b/c Spain owned the coins when they were lost, and no subsequent legal decision changed that, the newly found coins had to go back to Spain.

But if that reasoning is correct, didn't the article say that the coins were mined and minted from South America? In that case, shouldn't the current countries where that silver and gold came from be the "rightful" owners of the treasure? But I suppose that's opening up a whole 'nuther can of worms, given the level of imperialism and colonialism that many, modern-day nations are arguably guilty of.

Here's my proposal:

If you're a treasure hunter looking for a specific treasure, you take reasonable measures to contact the actual or possible legal owner(s) of the treasure. You let them know what your'e trying to do. They can either tell you:

a) "good luck" and go ahead and keep what you find;

b) "good luck" and give us a certain percentage of the vaue of what you find.

c) "I hope you have bad luck" but if you find anything, we get to keep anything you find.

If the owner elects for option C, you either: continue your hunt for the treasure and do it in secret so in the chance that you find it, you get to keep all of it. Or, you tell the owner, "ok, fine, I'm going to go look for something else, then. You enjoy hunting for a treasure where you not only don't know where to look, but you forgot existed until I brought it up."

As you can see, with option C, everyone loses. So it's in everyone's best interest to come to some sort of agreement on how to split the proceeds from any discoveries. Kind of like how the UK does it with certain treasures found on public and private land.

On 10/20/2021 at 4:48 PM, Geotech said:

On processor speed, processors have been fast enough for quite some time. Target recovery response is a strong function of the filter implementation (some in analog, some in DSP) and how the audio is processed. I recall back in the day when I used an XLT... target separation wasn't bad for those days but I found the menus to be sluggish. Then the DFX came along with double the processor speed. The menus were sure snappy, but target separation was the same. I'm sure they used the same filter and audio algorithms. It's a matter of recognizing what needs to be done (fast recovery) and designing the filters that will do it. Back then fast recovery wasn't on the radar but depth was, and there is some trade-off between the two.

If I understand what you're getting it, it seems like that until the signal processing software is improved. it doesn't really matter how fast or efficient the processors are.

12 minutes ago, kac said:

No matter what machine you use, in high trash areas the smaller coils will be much better. No matter what machine you choose by nature detectors sense targets on top. Higher recovery speeds and more sensitive machines may pick up on targets next to trash better but again coil size is a bigger factor.

I'm trying to figure out if getting the 5x8 coil and keeping the AT Max is worth it compared to just getting the Equinox 600 and using its stock coil (at least in terms of hunting in trash). Short of putting in several dozen hours comparing each setup in real-world conditions, I have a feeling this nailboard test might be the next best thing. 

I'm prepared to do use Monte's Nail Board test. But it'll take some time away from hunting and I want to make sure I'm not missing some setting or factor for the test that will essentially nullify my results.

Here's the deal: The AT Max's advatanges with ruggedness, use of AA batteries, S-shaft design and coil selection are the equivalent of the Equinox's advantages of more stable VDIs and more accurate VDIs at depth (to me). However, the AT Max's advantages aren't enough to overcome the potential Equinox advantage of being able to hunt through trashy conditions better than the AT Max, even if the latter has the 5x8 coil.

25 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

IMO, the biggest value of the Monte's Nail Board Test (MNBT) is being a standard anyone can build to Monte's specifications and then test detectors (with different settings as in the video above or comparing different detectors).  Being a standard, the results can be compared across the globe; it's not simply a test only repeatable by one person.  It does have usage as a pre-hunt tool but like every test setup, it has specific orientations of good and bad targets which don't usually mimic the complete real world situation.  The latter can only be done rigorously one way -- go into the field and detect!

If you read Monte's monograph, he 'stumbled' (my word) upon a distribution of nails and coin(s) in a ghost town and copied that.  From my limited experience in desert ghost towns, targets and trash tend to be on or near the surface.  So the MNBT is pretty realistic in those situations.

As far as iron (& alloys) vs. aluminum (&alloys), that's a more complicated subject due to iron having both magnetic and conductive properties (either/or, and often both) vs. aluminum beung purely conductive.

I know that Monte's Nail Board helps create a standard for anyone and it's this standardization that I hope to take advantage of when comparing my AT Max to an Equinox (and comparing my other detectors). I know it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing, in my opinion.

I'm also mulling over how to create a test garden in my back yard. I haven't done so yet b/c I can't properly create a good "soil profile" that has the less mineralized dark soil on top and the heavily mineralized red/brown/yellow-ish clay below that. But I'm beginning to think despite these flaws, having just 1 clad dime buried at 4/6/8 inches in my red clay would still be better than nothing when comparing different detectors.

I've never hunted a ghost town, but many of the places I hunt have trash near the surface, too.

1 hour ago, locator said:

❓❓❓. . . I know the discussion about this aluminum scrap from other forums, but I absolutely don't get it. Rejecting iron and get all the other good stuff is one thing, and rejecting/notching pull-tabs in a pt littered area can be good, too, but there are to many unknown factors in this game as the depth of good targets and the lesser visibility for the detector; so in this case a 2-d nail board test will be useless I think.

And depending on the fact that smaller coils will handle the NB test better keep in mind smaller coils have less depth.

Montes NB test is a good thing to get trusted to a detector and see what the machine can do in this environment.

just my 2 Pfennig

 

In most places that I hunt, depth isn't an issue. There's just so much trash within the first 1-3 inches of the surface, losing out on depth is less of a concern for me.

Now, in my own yard, where I know there may be some good, deep targets, yes, I want depth. But for most parks and private permissions, I'm realizing that getting depth doesn't mean much if there's so much trash, I sometimes skip ground balancing b/c I can't find any clear ground.

10 minutes ago, DIG5050 said:

if you do the testing proposed above, maybe it will provide some insight for future buyers of either machine or their successors.

If I do my proposed tests, I'll see if I can post my results here.

26 minutes ago, DIG5050 said:

The Apex seems to have only a single recovery time. I don’t know if the ATMax is the same.  The recovery time hampers the ability of the detector in target separation in a trashy site. I think you are going to experience difficulty in trashy areas with nearly any detector.
 

In trashy areas, the 5 x 8 coil definitely makes it a lot easier to hunt with the Apex.  I use it a lot around old home sites.  When it comes to trash and size, i.e. siding scrap, I try to “size” the target with the pinpoint function.  If it seems too big to be a coin, you can choose to dig it or skip it.  As the targets at the site begin to diminish, I can go back over it later and dig. 

I bought an extra lower shaft and mounted the 5 x 8 coil so I can quickly swap them at a site you cannot cover a lot of ground with it quickly but you will separate the coins from the trash better.

Even the ‘Nox has smaller round and oval coils available for better separation in trashy areas, even with its adjustable recovery time.  

Good luck hunting!

 

Thank you for your insight.

Here's a question for you: AT Max with 5x8 coil versus Equinox 600 with stock coil: which do you think finds coins better through typical park and yard trash?

I got in a few hours of metal detecting yesteday with my AT Max, which included some time at a park and a few permissions (private homes). Nothing of note was found, although I continued to struggle with trying to find good targets in high-trash soil. Given how I'm using the Garrett AT Max, I know have two primary options for finding good targets (silver coins) in these types of conditions.

First, get a smaller coil, like the 5x8.

Second, start digging the trash targets to clear up the ground and reveal possible good targets that are being masked or otherwise "overshadowed" by all the bits of aluminum, nails and other garbage.

The second approach is not a viable option for most places I hunt (parks and private permissions). Not only do I not have the time to implement that strategy, my body can't readily handle that much digging. Also, I'm pretty sure digging almost everything is bound to lead to the loss of any good graces I have with property owners and park maintenance crews.

Ok, so that leaves the first option. But before I go that route, I have to concede the possibility of getting an Equinox. Based on my experience with my Vanquish, limited time on the Equinox 600 and experiences with my AT Max and Fisher F2, I'm confident that one of the advantages of getting an Equinox will be more stable VDIs and more accurate VDIs at depth. And right now, I think I can live with that.

I understand that getting a solid signal (a good, repeatabe signal from both swings and in 2 directions) on a dime or quarter at 6+ inches in my mineralized soil isn't always realistic with the AT Max. But I know the AT Max is at least capable of getting a decent signal (a good, repeatable signal from at least 1 direction and in 1 swing).

Put another way, I get how the AT Max may not get me the "dig me!" type of signal that an Equinox can, but I at least need it to get me the "take a closer look, please" signal.

All of that to say that I'm thinking about how my AT Max's target separating ability and recovery speed limitations (using the stock coil) will compare to an Equinox 600 and a stock coil. I came to this realization when running the AT Max with only iron discrimination set at 35 resulted in information overload for me and notching out everything below 70 was likely leading me to completely miss "take a closer look, please" signals that might lead to silver coins, dimes or quarters.

Therefore, I want to use Monte's Nail Board. I know it's not ideal, and I plan on using Steve's approach of using both the AT Max and Equinox 600 on real-world targets. But I think the Nail Board will offer quantitative data when comparing the AT Max and Equinox.I also plan on using it with my Fisher F2 and Vanquish 340 to help put things into perspective. So how do I go about doing this test? Here's my approach so far:

Step 1: Create Monte's Nail Board and use it with a modern, clad dime and new nails.

Step 2: For each of the 4 passes, I will give it a rating: Will Dig, Maybe Dig, Won't Dig.

Step 3:  I will set the sensitivities at either 50% or the highest possible given EMI

Step 4: I will run each machine with zero discrimination and with enough notching so that it's only going to sound on dimes and quarters (and maybe copper pennies).

Step 5: For the AT Max, I will also test it with iron discrimination set to 35.

Step 6 (maybe): Run the test with the AT Max using both its stock and 5x8 coils.

So here's my first real question: what changes or additions would you all make to my current approach? 

My second real question(s): what "base" setting should I use with the Equinox 600. I'm thinking Park 1 with recovery speed set at the highest setting (3?) and a small or moderate amount of iron bias. Should I also run some tests with the Equinox 600 in 4KHz mode?

My third real question: would it be benefitical to modify Monte's Nail Board so that the nails are replaced by either clumps of aluminum  or maybe pulltabs? A lot of my hunting is in parks and yards that are often littered with more aluminum trash than iron trash.

Any insight is appreciated. Thanks!

3 hours ago, ☠ Cipher said:

If that’s the case it would seem to be more of an issue as to how it was coded or the kind of algorithms used at the time.

But if that's the case, a much faster processor can compensate for slow code or inefficient algorithms, right?

Just now, Joe D. said:

   Something else that may warrant consideration!

   Bankruptcy is a business plan! Albeit generally not a good one, but it does have some financial advantages! Especially after the last two years of Covid changing the marketplace!!

   I'm not saying that's what is happening here, but it could be a factor going forward, when weighing a product overhaul, against potential returns!!👍👍

   

But during bankruptcy proceedings, don't companies have to take warranty claims into account? But even if that's the case, perhaps doing this with a bankrutpcy judge or trustee overseeing the debt reorganization is better financially for the company than not going into bankrtupcy...