mh9162013

5 minutes ago, Mike Hillis said:

I'm sure 1st Texas Products is working on a selectable with full band spectrum unit as well

That's funny!

I love the Apex look as well, especially the fact that it's an s-shaft.

Eagle eyes!

Good catch. I'm betting those require a regular phillips head screwdriver, too.

46 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

they either need to have an update capability, or undertake the most extensive product pre-release testing they have done to get it right.

I'm guessing it's a little of both.

Perhaps Garrett, if necessary, can recall and update the software on all the Apexes and eat the cost. But they're so confident in their software development that they doubt this will happen. Your beancounter explanation makes a lot of sense, and when tweaking it from a movie quote from Fight Club:

The cost of doing software updates on an ad hoc basis X the probability that a software update will be necessary. If this ends up being less than the increased development costs of building in updateable firmware, Garrett won't provide this feature.

6 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

But for all we know the case is held together by four screws and easily splits apart for replacement

I hope you're right! We will find out soon enough.

1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

if Apex does not suit, use something else.

That may be something I end up doing. But it's not a dealbreaker for me. No single feature in a metal detector is...so far, at least.

I've been mulling the idea of getting a used AT Pro and a Vanquish 340 or some similar combo.

2 hours ago, Sven1 said:

I think they mentioned the small cellphone like battery

Assuming you're right, that's even worse news. Nothing like a non-standard battery to make it harder for customers to do their own battery replacements.

3 hours ago, Sven1 said:

Do you see the battery in the picture of the insides of the control box?

In the below picture, I figured it's what's right of the white thing (speaker?) and left of the circuit board.

At least, I figured it was the battery.

3 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

and this sure beats the old days of tossing tons of dead AA batteries in the landfill.

If this is the sole option besides a built-in lithium, then by all means, let's encourage companies to create tech with built-in cells. But that's not always the case. There are so many high quality rechargeable AA and AAA options out there, that the only reasons I see for a built-in battery are: easier waterproofing, slightly increase volume efficiency and modest weight savings.

The easier waterproofing is the most important feature (for me). I'm willing to take a 25% or 33% drop in run time to use easily replaceable AA cells in my metal detector (assuming weight and size remains the same). I'm sure I'm in the minority here, though.

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

Given that Minelab won't even cooperate with its loyal customers/users (e.g. provide the coils they want) it seems completely inconsistent that they would collaborate with a direct competitor which is introducing a detector that is aimed at taking market share away from their latest release (aka Vanquish).  Are people really suggesting that as a possibility?

 

Yes, at least I have made that suggestion. If I had to bet money, would I say that's what's going on here? No, but unless we get an official statement saying otherwise, I will assume it's possible.

2 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

Agree, such a tired argument.  It will cost maybe $35 to $50 if you want the repair center to do it (vs. just doing it yourself) based on my experience with XP and ML, 4 to 7 years from now.  Compare that to the cost of replaceable or even a couple sets of nicads over that time.

It may be tired, but the process of making self-repair more and more difficult is still ongoing, across all product lines, not just metal detectors. 

And it's not just cost (a set of high quality 4 AA NiMH batteries should cost less than $15 and easily last 1,000+ cycles), but waste (lithiums often have shorter life cycles than nickel based cells) and time (having to send off your machine for a few days or weeks to get its battery replaced) considerations, too.

3 hours ago, Xergix said:

The battery can be changed, the controlbox can be opened

Do we know that for sure about the Apex? I know the Equinox battery can be replaced on your own pretty easily, although I know not all users will be confident enough to replace the cell on their own (and I don't know if it affects the warranty). I wasn't of the belief that the Apex could be opened as easily. From the pics it seems like opening the control box will be similar to opening up an AT Pro or Max.

4 hours ago, Xergix said:

The internal battery is a good choice, now it is unthinkable to stay with AA Nimh or alkaline batteries, even just for the physical size, litium is the future

So is forced obsolescence. Hopefully, this is not Garrett's goal, but if the Apex becomes a legendary machine (which it very well may), the battery configuration is a nice little "cash cow annuity" they have established when people have to send in their machine for battery replacement several years down the line.

2 hours ago, RobNC said:

This dude has really been pumping the iron.

He secretly hunts with a CTX 3030 and a 17" coil.

15 hours ago, ☠ Cipher said:

Hats off to Garrett if they do. It came out of nowhere, but it would make me very happy. I've been itching for some, any American company to compete at this level. The only things that make me do a double take is 1. That it came so far out of left field with no prior indication that Garrett could do Multifrequency (it wouldn't be as surprising coming from First Texas say). 2. How blatantly similar it sounds to multi-IQ, right down to the specific frequencies. I am hoping it's all coincidence. I'm rooting for them for sure. 

Hmmmm, yeah, it definitely kinda makesya wunduh.

I don't think Garrett would cheat, so I'm guessing either:

1) A business arrangement between Minelab and Garrett

2) There are only so many efficient and practical ways to engineer a simultaneous multifrequency machine and the similarities are a scientific coincidence, kind of like the Space Shuttle and Buran. Perhaps the "juice" is in doing it efficiently, both from a financial and power consumption perspective.

3 minutes ago, Contraption said:

I don't know about the coil. Looks a bit strange. Many time a compromise doesn't do any good. I have a 5 x 8 and at times I wish it was smaller than 8". 

I was wondering the same thing.

Seems like a nobrainer, to build a DD coil like the Viper. But why haven't other companies done it more often? There must be a reason.

10 minutes ago, ☠ Cipher said:

It boxes them into a corner with some undesirable options. On one hand they could preclude a competing platform (or receive a cut of it). On another, they might have to reveal that Multi-IQ is notably different in substance than described to the public and as it appears on paper.

Interesting theories.

It's my guess that Garrett is filled with some pretty smart engineers and they already know exactly how Mineab's Multi-IQ works.

1 hour ago, Jeff McClendon said:

(which are very musically pleasing and don't have tritones and diminished 5ths for you musicians out there

I heard that too. I didn't understand the musical theory behind why the tones were pleasurable, but I certainly noticed that during the video.

3 minutes ago, Dances With Doves said:

They will sell a lot because they  know how to market a machine.

That they do. And if this ends up being as "good" as the Equinox, Minelab's gonna get a run for its money.

But then MInelab has some new products on the horizon in 2020, right?

This will be an interesting year...

1 minute ago, Steve Herschbach said:

or they came up with a different version of their own

I have to assume Garrett choose this option.

I admit, this is far more than I expected and I like what I see. 

This is basically the lovechild of a Vanquish and an Equinox and therefore, fits an ideal middle ground that no detector currently covers (see what I did there? *snorts*)

The Ace Apex now makes me wonder if the AT line will be upgraded too, i.e. the "AT Apex" line. This is where you can have a fully waterproof control box, more adjustability with settings, goes deeper, etc. But this is such a nice machine, I don't know how much better it can be. 

I admit, the only way I get a Vanquish now is if I get the 340 for $200. And if I get the Equinox, I'd probably get the 800. I will no longer consider the 440, 540 or 600.

16 hours ago, phrunt said:

It's kinda funny when they say you don't need batteries, it makes me think it's solar powered 🙂 Having a built in battery still means it needs a battery.

Could it run off of an ultra or super capacitor? That was my second thought. My first thought was poor script writing.

Yup, you always have to try. For peace of mind and a good night's sleep, if nothing else.

What Chase Goldman said.

2 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

For me, the frustrating quality of these threads is the attitude of some posters that the manufacturers have some kind of sadistic motives

Well, a lot of companies put profit over quality or customer satisfaction. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume metal detecting companies may sometimes be guilty of that. Just look at Boeing and their 737 Max. Sure, that's not a metal detecting company, but it's easy for people to transpose one company's actions on another company...whether consciously or subconsciously.

2 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

Further, we get people who are convinced they know better how those companies should conduct their businesses than the companies actually do themselves

I don't think most people think they know better than metal detecting companies. What's usually happening (in my opinion) is that they're engaging in the natural human tendency to fill-in-the-blanks with the limited information they have. This will typically allow worst case scenarios and bias to easily come out. And sometimes, companies don't always do the right thing (although this depends on who's perspective you're using).

2 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

People accusing them of underhanded actions has to hurt, particularly when they are suffering from internal (reliability issues, supply chains) and external (pandemics, recessions,...) headaches which are already wearing their own patience thin. 

Then they need to explain those things. Otherwise, they have to accept that consumers and company outsiders will draw their own conclusions. Yes, it can be unfair, but that usually comes with the territory with being a famous/public/important/valuable people or organization. Like you already said, damned if you do, damned if you don't.