mh9162013

9 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Consider warranty. Waterproof detectors fail more often generating more warranty repairs. Not an issue with a dry land design.

Good point

7 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

You could in theory have an Equinox 400 and Equinox 200 instead of Vanquish, but the Vanquish hardware with AA batteries is just plain cheaper to make.

Really? Not that I don't believe you, but this intrigues me.

Is the hardware in an Equinox that much more expensive than the Vanquish? I know the built in lithium battery costs a few extra bucks, as does the charging circuitry and waterproof seals. Then there's maybe a few extra dollars for a better chip or something. But a few hundreds dollars worth of hardware differences? 

I just assumed the hardware and production differences between the Vanquish 340 and Equinox 800 would amount to $100-$150 or so. Everything else would be software and profit (and accessories, of course).

On 4/26/2020 at 3:30 PM, phrunt said:

I've never had an AT Series, a rarely used AT Max went up for sale here last week, it was $525 NZD, $315 USD including the Z Link wireless headphones, those who know me know how tempted I'd be to buy that, especially at that price but I declined the sale, I couldn't bring myself to buying it knowing I'd likely be disappointed and prefer using my Vanquish over it, even though it's their top of the line.  Pretty sad.

 

Wow, that's a really good deal! I would have bought it just to turn around and flip it (after tinkering with it, of course!)

The Vanquish 340

1 hour ago, bethanyb1201 said:

Farmers....Its the ladies insurance company that hit me. They bought me a new cell phone and metal detector. I should say gave me money to get new ones.

Sounds like you did ok, at least with respect to the Equinox.

12 minutes ago, bethanyb1201 said:

I had to turn in the nox to insurance company

Who's your insurance company, Chubb? 

16 minutes ago, bethanyb1201 said:

It also could be that is was defective in some way.

Is it still under warranty?

Great find!

8 hours ago, phrunt said:

I hope this helps you understand why for me in my soil conditions not wanting to dig a lot of holes in public land I prefer the Multi-IQ detectors.

It does very much, and thank you for the video!

So it seems like it's not just the stable ID numbers that the Multi-IQ provides, but also the ability to get those stable numbers with almost no (or at least a lot less) adjusting of settings compared to a non-Mult-IQ machine.

Thanks again, you've been very helpful in helping me understand the benefits of Miulti-IQ.

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

Is that the approach you took with the information that has been provided to you on the subject to date?

No. If you read one of my most recent posts/comments, you'll see that I did do a lot of reading, but didn't understand what I read or they didn't answer my question.

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

Have you read any of the external references recommended to you.

I have (even before starting my thread) and they didn't answer all of my questions, hence creating this thread.

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

Who would have a conflict of interest?

Anyone who recommends or touts a product or company for reasons that go beyond simply wanting to share an opinion. Often times there is a financial motivation, but not always.

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

So have you detected any ulterior motives in what people have posted based on your house contractor analogy?

Not here, no. But my house contractor analogy was made primarily to demonstrate my natural curiosity.

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

This seems to be a common theme for you.  Ulterior motive - so what is your conclusion based on what people have posted.  Who is trying to sell a book or detector here?

I'm not using the ulterior motive example to say any of you guys have ulterior motives. I'm just using that as one example as to why I ask "why."

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

Have we gone way over your head?  I don't think so.

 You're right, you guys haven't (at least that I can remember).

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

We have repeated ad nauseum themes like "there are no absolutes in metal detecting", "knowing your machine well or knowing its "language", regardless of what it is, is important to success" and  "no one detector does it all".

Yes, these have been said over and over, but even fewer examples given. That's why I appreciated phrunt's post so much in that he gave me the answer in a way I hadn't heard before.

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

Do you REALLY want to know why Multi IQ is better or do you want to know why the Equinox is popular?  

That's a good question. I never thought of the issue that way and assumed they were the same question. If you can answer this second question, I'm listening.

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

Maybe this exercise will help - Why don't you tell us now what you would tell someone who was pondering an Equinox versus Brand X and feel free to make up the scenario in terms of what the "rookie" needed it for and we can critique your response to the rookie and "fill in the gaps" in your logic or knowledge about the Equinox.  Have you ever previously been asked or recommended the Equinox to anyone?  What was your answer?

Yes, I have recommended the Equinox to someone.

A week ago, before making this thread, if a rookie wanted my advice on what metal detector to get, the following hypothetical dialogue might go something like this: (I hope this answers your question)

Rookie: I want to try metal detecting, what should I buy?

Me: It depends.

Rookie: On?

Me: A bunch of variables. What are you looking for? What’s your budget? Where do you want to hunt?

Rookie: Coins and jewelry in parks and backyards and stuff. And perhaps a beach or two when on vacation. My budget is $200.

Me: I’d recommend the Minelab Vanquish.

Rookie: Really? Why not the Ace series by Garrett?

Me: Those are good detectors, but they’re old tech…like 10 years old. And while they’re good machines, they’re not as modern as the Vanquish. But being modern isn’t what makes the Vanquish a better machine. It’s better because it uses multi-frequency tech, which allows it to more accurately determine what’s in the ground. The better you can determine what's in the ground, the less digging of trash you can do (although you'll still do a lot of it). But most importantly, you say you want to detect a beach. Assuming a saltwater beach, the Ace detectors won’t work in the wet sand…or at least won’t work very well.

Rookie: Oh, ok. Can I go into waist deep water with the Vanquish?

Me: Yes, but I wouldn’t recommend it, as one dunk in salt water and the Vanquish is likely toast. If you want to use your machine in situations where it can get wet, you need it to be waterproof.

Rookie: Is there a waterproof version of the Vanquish?

Me: I wish. There’s a new machine called the Simplex, which is waterproof and is really good. But it’s not ideal for saltwater beaches. What’s perfect for beaches and parks and yards is the Equinox. The problem is, the Equinox is well above your budget…think paying at least $500 for a new machine, likely closer to $600 or $700.

Rookie: Ok, so why is the Equinox $600 and the Vanquish $200?

Me: The Vanquish is just barely $200…or maybe it’s $250. There are several versions of the Vanquish with one being…$400 or so? Either way, the Equinox is more expensive for several reasons. First, it’s waterproof to 10 feet…or is it 10 meters? Not sure, but it’ll handle a dunking in the ocean no problem. Just don’t dive with it. Second, it has wireless capability for headphones. Third, it has special modes or settings to handle other environments, like gold prospecting. The additional settings is useful for experienced detectorists, although I don't fully understand how as I usually hunt with default "modes" built in to the detectors.

Rookie: Gold prospecting? I like the sound of that. But wait, I told you I wanted to search for jewelry, which includes gold rings. So will the Vanquish be able to find those?

Me: Yes. But gold prospecting is different from looking for gold jewelry. The former requires higher frequencies to find the tiny gold nuggets and stuff. Also, gold prospecting machines can usually better handle the “harsher/hotter” soils that gold is often found in. Also, in most machines, gold jewelry will be detected as aluminum trash in many situations. The Equinox and Vanquish are supposed to do a better job of differentiating, but they're not perfect. So to go for gold rings, you'll have to accept a lot of trash being dug up.

Rookie: So the Vanquish can’t really be used for prospecting for gold, got it. Ok, so I can get a decent machine for $200 or so. But what about those machines I see online from China for like $50. Are they any good?

Me: I honestly don’t know. But one of the advantages of buying from a well-known company, like Garrett or Minelab is the communication. They both offer great customer service and warranties…at least compared to some fly-by-night company from China that sells on eBay.

I don’t know if that answers your question Chase, but that’s basically the extent of my “recommend a detector” conversations.

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

For instance, I never read anywhere, that "assuming you won't search beaches, will dig everything, are willing to put in the time, etc. an AT Pro or Fisher F75+ will find you basically anything the Equinox will find."  Sometimes, wording things differently will get a better understanding in someone else.

This is more for coin size objects in my opinion, the Nox will find small gold and targets like that much better than the At Pro and F75 will, due to having higher frequencies available.   I personally think my T2 (similar to F75) will find any coin my Nox will find especially if I was digging everything that beeps, my Nox will just be far more accurate with the ID's helping me to dig less.   It will not find small gold near as well as the Nox.

There is always going to be ifs, buts and maybes 🙂  Often with metal detecting it seems there is no guarantees, no absolute right answer, there is always variables.

Thanks for the clarification.

2 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

No metal detector I know of will do the majority of the work for you.

I know that and I've known that for a very long time. But I didn't know how this would manifest itself in reality. For example, I've become fascinated as of late with the "Tesoro roll" where you will adjust the discrimin or other knobs on the Tesoro machine when over a target to help determine what's in the ground. That seems like a lot of fun and a very satisfying way to determine what your detector is picking up. But I also figured this was a skill that took many many hours to master. I also figured that something like...Multi-IQ is a technology that negates the need for much of that skill out of the equation. Or at the very least, reduces the amount of skill needed. So, in my mind, the answer to the question of "what makes Multi-IQ so good?" in relation with Tesoros was "it gives you the ability to do the Tesoro roll without having to put in the time and effort of learning that skill."

Ok, so is the above accurate? Perhaps not, but even if it's accurate, I know it's an oversimplification. But it's an oversimplification that I can understand.

Look, I'm not that bright and I'm slow to figure things out. I love science and engineering, but I'm too slow to figure it out fast enough to make a living doing it. Hence, I relegate it to my hobbies. And instead of annoying a boss or client for being too slow, I get to annoy you guys, I guess.

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

Can you articulate better why you are asking

TL;DR: Curiosity, learning and I want to know if there's a conflict of interest. 

There are several reasons.

First, I'm naturally curious and like to understand "what's really going on." For example, there's this famous legal case involving Reading pipe and a breach of contract. The case involved a homeowner refusing to pay the final payment for a house. The homeowner claimed that the contract  for the house project required the use of Reading pipe, but the builder used a different brand which was functionally the same. The builder and homeowner litigated whether there was a breach of contract with the "wrong" pipe being used. The court said there was no breach even though the builder clearly did not build the house as specified in the contract. So what was really going on? The builder and homeowner probably had some sort of personal or business disagreement that had nothing to do with the pipe. And for whatever reason, the homeowner wanted to stick it to the builder and used the wrong pipe being installed as his excuse, i.e. it was a pretext for withholding payment. Does it change the legal theory of substantial performance? No, but it's a neat and fun fact (in my opinion) to know.

Second, there's the practical reason for wanting to know why. So when someone recommends detector A over detector B, I want to know why. It may not change whether I listen to them or not, but I can at least make a more informed decision. For example, Brandon Neice loves his Minelab products. Why? Well, at least PART of the reason is because he's probably got a business arrangement with Minelab. As another example, why do many of the prominent "influencers" on Youtube use Garrett products? Again, at least part of the reason is because they probably have a special arrangement with Garrett. So when Aquqchigger or one of the Hoover Boys recommends a Garrett product, you have make sure it's b/c they truly believe in that product, are getting paid to make the recommendation or something in between. My belief is that if they can make a few bucks or get a few free trips or products out of a decision they were going to make anyways, they tell themselves, "why not?" I could be wrong, but that's my theory. But If I'm going to listen to what they have to say, I want to know why they are recommending what they're recommending. For the record, I believe all of these influencers believe in the respective companies they represent, but they might embellish or recommend their respective products with a little bit more enthusiasm than they might otherwise.

Third, I want to learn. I've tried reading plenty of guides and articles, but sometimes, either my question isn't answered or the material is too technical for me. I've tried reading Candy's "white paper" about metal detecting basics and theory. I've tried 3 times, but after the first few pages, it goes way over my head. I've also read the threads and articles about Multi-IQ, but they didn't answer my question that I've asked here. Many of you gave advice and insights that I had not read anywhere before. Yes, the idea was probably expressed elsewhere, but not in the same way that many of you put it. For instance, I never read anywhere, that "assuming you won't search beaches, will dig everything, are willing to put in the time, etc. an AT Pro or Fisher F75+ will find you basically anything the Equinox will find."  Sometimes, wording things differently will get a better understanding in someone else. I saw this firsthand when giving a rookie some detector buying advice. He didn't understand why the question, "hey, I want a metal detector, what do you guys recommend?" could not be effectively answered without more information. I explained to him that we need to know more information, like what his budget was, where he wanted to search, what he was looking for, etc., and then we could provide a better recommendation. I used the following car analogy: "if someone came up to you and said, 'I want a car, what should I buy?' you wouldn't be able to answer it. A sedan, pickup truck, minivan, SUV, sports car, etc. are all vehicles and do a great job at what they're designed to do, but a terrible or so-so job in other applications. Until you know why the person needs a car, you can't give the best recommendation." The light bulb went off with the guy and he explained his need for the metal detector.

44 minutes ago, palzynski said:

So to answer mh9162013 ,  you must exactly know what you will do with your detector before buying it , searching for nuggets in hot ground is not be the same as searching for coins in mild soil , not the same as beach hunting , not the same as cache hunting and so on …

Sure, but the question remains, "why?"

Knowing the why is like knowing how to fish. As opposed to every time you're hungry, asking someone to give you some fish to eat.

So I can say, "I want to search _________." Then you, Steve or some other expert make a good recommendation. That's great and for some people, that's enough. For me, I want to understand why Widget A was recommended over Widget B, as opposed to just accepting the recommendation and going on my merry way.

Glad to have you here, Chase.

13 minutes ago, palzynski said:

We have accurate figures for car sales given by the car manufacturers , why is it not the case in the MD industry ?

Maybe that information is more useful in marketing for metal detector companies than it is for car companies? Your guess is as good as mine. The car industry is also far larger, with more interest from the general public and government regulatory agencies.

But I do recall seeing a Minelab graphic showing the revenue generated by continent. Not that it's what you're asking about, but I suppose it's something.

I'm sure Steve might have some good insight here, though.

3 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

You can do that just fine with your F2 and just getting an Equinox will not magically rock your world.

I learned that a few months ago!

While I didn't expect my Equinox 600 to work like magic, I had hoped that it would work significantly better than my F2.

I know it does, but I was unable to put in the time to see those results.

It did have an amazing recovery speed that helped me understand what I did wrong with my F2 in my most recent competition hunt where I got skunked.

49 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Yes, you actually have to learn your detector. That’s not a catch, that’s reality with all detectors.

It can be a catch, depending on what the company is trying to bill their product as.

The question is: how much do you have to learn? It's my impression that Multi-IQ reduces the amount of learning required. Or, it produces better results for a given amount of learning.

As for asking others what works best or watching videos: are you telling me I'm wrong for doing that? I don't have the financial or time resources to do all the testing myself. I'd love to and I hope I can (say, taking a Garrett AT Pro in one arm and an Equinox in the other and see how they respond to the same target). But until I get more time and more money, I'll have to stick with what I can do through my computer screen and my occasional hunts with my Fisher F2.

If I ask too many questions, I'll stop. Or at least ask fewer questions...or go somewhere else to ask them. The question I asked in this post is one that had been on my mind for months and I was waiting for a time to ask. I asked now because I thought I had reached the limits of watching Youtube and lurking message boards. I also thought I had an answer, but wanted to see if it was correct (phrunt was most helpful with that).

27 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

People compare the Equinox to machines costing two or three times more money and actually have to debate which is better. And any specialty machine that rivals the Equinox at one particular task falls flat when compared to some other area where the Equinox still shines. Deus vs Equinox in dense ferrous? Ok, Deus debatably has an edge, but now let’s talk Deus in saltwater. No comparison, Equinox slam dunk. CTX on silver coins vs Equinox. Ok, maybe CTX has an edge, but now let’s talk CTX on small gold nuggets. No comparison, Equinox wins. There are detectors that give Equinox a run in one particular area, but they lack the overall excellent performance of Equinox at all detecting tasks, and often cost far more.

Ok, but where's the "catch?" Is it learning all the settings in the Equinox and being able to properly adjust the machine for the conditions you're hunting in and targets you're looking for?

21 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

People compare the Equinox to machines costing two or three times more money and actually have to debate which is better.

Great point. I am just trying to figure out "why" this is so.

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

No one detector does everything, it's why most of us have a range of detectors

I know. But, I imagine scenarios, such as:

"If you could have only one detector..."

"If you were willing to dig everything..."

"If you could only have two detectors..."

The problem is, there are probably an infinite number of scenarios. Then, each of those scenarios will have their own caveats, exceptions and qualifiers.

I'm doing my best (and my best, may be awful) to try and get the 30,000 foot view of it all.

So many people will ask, "I want to search __________ site, with _________ soil, seeking __________ targets and my budget is ______________, so what machine should I get?" They may get the perfect answer, but they may not understand why.

I've seen it before, where someone will ask for a recommendation on a detector, get a good one, but from his follow up questions, you can tell he doesn't understand why he got the recommendation he did.

For instance, he's recommended an Equinox, but doesn't understand why that was recommended to him over the Simplex or AT Pro/Max because he mentioned wanting to hunt salt water beaches.

14 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

I have said what I want to say on this so this will be my last post in this thread.

That doesn't have to be for my sake, but I appreciate your input, for sure. Thank you.

13 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Is the Equinox 800 or 600 the absolute best detector for any situation? No. Does Multi IQ technology work the best for me in the vast majority of my detecting scenarios? Yes.

Jeff

Awesome post and explanation, thank you!

3 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

If you had specifically included submerged salt water hunting I would have included the Excal for sure. Your question was searching salt water beaches............

 

Jeff

It was and it is.

So you'd pick the 600. Is your answer objective or subjective? In other words, do you pick the 600 b/c you truly think it's the best for salt water beaches? Or do you love that Equinox so much, even though there might be another choice that's better, you still go for the 600?

It's an honest question. All I have for information is marketing fluff from websites and seeing what the "influencers" use on Youtube...either is hardly the most reliable source.

24 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Yep. If I only hunted salt water beaches and surf, I would want waterproof headphones and a really good scoop. I would have no use for wireless headphones, the WM08 module, 20 or 40 kHz single frequencies or the Gold modes.

 

Jeff

You'd pick the 600 over the CTX 3030, Excalibur II, Garrett Sea Hunter Mark 2, et al.?

EDIT: My question assumes money is no object.