mh9162013

I'm considering the Minelab Pro-Find 15 and 35. It seems like the most important difference on a functional level is that the 15 has fixed sensitivity.

To any of you Pro-Find users out there, is the adjustable sensitivity on the 35 important? If not, why not?

Also, is the entire propointer a solid piece of plastic or is there a joint/seem where the black tip meets the yellow housing?

4 minutes ago, Geotech said:

In the US, the Moss-Magnuson Act allows the end-user to do their own repairs, and forbids the manufacturer from voiding the warranty when they do. The exception is if the manufacturer offers to do the repair for free. In fact, the "warraty void if seal is broken" label is technically illegal under the MM Act.

Yes, it was simply a case of "do what they did."

That's a big exception, especially when the self-fix is easy and warranty repairs take a long time to complete (I know, you're just the messenger).

I know of a great location spot for relic hunting. The only problem is that it's on federal land. I think it's also part of a federal national park or recreation area. However, the location used to belong to my spouse's grandmother and was the place of her birth and childhood. About 50 years ago, the land was taken through imminent domain. 

Due to this family connection, is there a legal process or procedure that would allow me to metal detect there? And if so, would there be special rules concerning any finds? 

Any advice would be appreciated.

2 hours ago, phrunt said:

That's what's inside the Minelab GPX detector battery housing, it is the right path as long as they make it affordable, the batteries themselves aren't expensive but the way Minelab have packaged them is. They didn't make them user replaceable for most people in a way that they can get an extreme profit off someone needing a replacement battery and one bad cell is all it takes for your entire battery to crap out even if it's got 8 cells in it then Minelab expect you to buy a whole new battery which includes an amplifier in it also.

Yours seems a common opinion on 9v batteries and I guess the manufacturer doesn't have to care about people using cheap batteries that leak all through their pinpointer as it's not a warranty claim anyway and they'll just buy a new one as they're well aware it's their own fault ?

I'm the odd one out that likes 9v ?

 

I agree that going to 8AA cells is pretty extreme and almost as bad as using a 9V battery. 

1 hour ago, EL NINO77 said:

Steve's analogy to the Metal Detector with Automotive I like very much ..., ... and is more than apt ..., What are the expectations of your future detector? , include the weight of the detector and its price .....

Are you asking me?

Thank you for your input, Geotech, It's nice to hear the perspective of an industry expert and insider.

I'm with you in that I don't like 9V batteries and built-in lithium batteries. I like the ability to replace batteries myself toward the end of their lives and lithium batteries tend to have relatively short lives in that their ability to provide higher performance is relatively short. I dislike built-in lithiums enough such that I don't buy commercial power banks. Instead, I made my own using AA eneloops and a voltage booster. Yes, I take a huge hit on size, weight and capacity, but I can easily replace the batteries when I feel like it. It also allows me to keep it fully charged 24/7 without worrying that I'm degrading the batteries (as is the case with lithiums).

I'm willing to "accept" the built-in batteries (as opposed to 9V batteries) because I know it's the future and I see a manufacturer's logic in building power system that way (more flexibility during engineering and a future money making opportunity). But I share your concern about what happens when the battery goes bad for the average user who isn't equipped (whether in skills, tools or knowledge) to fix the problem on his or her own. And even when they are, there's the warranty voiding becoming an issue. At least with the Equinox, users can get by (at least in theory) with an external USB power bank when the internal battery starts to degrade (I know phrunt already mentioned this).

Out of curiosity Geotech, why was management so shy about leaving the 9V power ecosystem? Was it an issue of management and ownership being that stubborn? Or are the advantages of moving to AA or built-in lithiums less clear than one might think? It wouldn't surprise me if it's the former. I used to work in an industry that did things very inefficiently because that's how they always did it, even when it resulted in significant lost income.

This isn't the only message board I visit, but I haven't see any "detector war" skirmishes at all. I guess everyone is being civil.

1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

It’s more like driving a car me. They are all different but I can rent anything and drive off the lot without crashing. 

That seems to be a good analogy and you're right, with so many people using different brands, it's probably true.

There are so many other hobbies or contexts where brand loyalty exists, especially when it involves skills and/or experience with the item. I'm thinking radio control (at least back in the 90s and 2000s), musical instruments, anything involving engines, tools and video game systems. I know the industries aren't the same, so it's not a perfect comparison, but as a relative newbie to metal detectors I'm surprised by a few "quirks" about the hobby and am trying to learn more about them.

I try to be brand loyal, but only up to a point. If they have certain social causes they support that I disagree with, are WAY overpriced or produce anything that uses a 9V battery (j/k), then I tend to look for alternatives.

Good to know, thanks!

1 hour ago, Noah (FL) said:

So many variables in tones and general operation from brand to brand that it really comes down to what you “click” with.  

That's a major reason why I'm so surprised people use so many different brands of metal detectors. 

I assume that those beeps and tones in my Fisher F2 will mean the same thing in a Fisher F75. And if I picked up a Garrett's AT Pro, I would have to spend a ton of time "retuning my ear" to the new machine. But I don't know if this assumption is true, hence this thread.

Thanks for the suggestion. I may do that if I can't find a suitable donor soon. I'd like to avoid that though, to keep myself from funding counterfeiters but more importantly, to not worry about the slight internal differences that may exist.

1 hour ago, EL NINO77 said:

The 9V battery is still one of the industry standard heads for low current devices ... The only disadvantage I see in 9V Ni-MH rechargeable batteries is the smaller power capacity of 170-mAh up to max. 250 mAh .Classic Alkaline or Lithium 9V batteries - having 3x to 5x higher capacity energy - 600 to 1000 -1200 mAh.

But I believe this difference in power capacity in the near future with the help of li-ion or li-pol technology will quickly equalize ..

But why? Sure, there's the low noise advantage, but even then, why not design a device so it doesn't need voltage boosting from the batteries?

I wouldn't be surprised if metal detecting tech naturally wants higher voltage. But even if true, lithium batteries are so cheap and easily available  that just a 2 or 3 cell Li-ion or LiPo pack that's built into the device should be easy to design. And another advantage will be forced obsolescence, as lithium rechargeables have limited cycle lifespans. Alternatively, manufacturers could offer battery replacement services for these devices and use it as another money making opportunity.

On 3/23/2019 at 4:27 PM, phrunt said:

Noise on a circuit can cause false signals, metal detectors have noise suppression built into them as much as possible but noise is always an issue with sensitive electronics, pinpointers don't have a lot of space for bulky circuits. 

I will leave it up to manufacturers to decide what battery is best for what application, it's easy to criticize being an end user.

You can buy an F-pulse for your pinpointer if you prefer AA's, it's a good pinpointer and they made it run off AA with a reported 25 hour battery life.

I guess we have to remember the 9v shape is just a form factor, they can use whatever battery storage technology they like in the battery. 

How do you propose you're going to make a 3 x 1.5 volt batteries work in a pinpointer designed for a 9 volt battery? You're going to make your own noiseless booster circuit for in your little battery package and somehow make it fit into the pinpointer along with the batteries and make it perform as well. It would have to perform better or it's a futile exercise.  It just makes no sense.  You'd be better off just buying the F-pulse and you've got what you want without having to make any unusual modifications.

The problem with the F-Pulse is the growing pains its had. Supposedly they're gone, though, but I'm not 100% convinced, especially with so many other options out there (although they use 9V batteries).

There are voltage boosters out there that can easily take 3.6 or 4.8 volts and up it to 9V with about 80-85% efficiency. As for how clean it does so, I don't know and is not something I had thought about. It may fail miserably, kind of like those first edition F-Pulses, or it could work just as well as 9V batteries, but give users the ability to use alkaline, NiMH or lithium (primary) AAA cells in their pinpointers. 

Assuming the noise isn't an issue, making a 3 cell AAA adapter will be a walk in the park. The hard part will figuring out how to fit in in the pinpointer with the least amount of modifications to the battery compartment or end cap. Ideally this can be done with no modifications to the pinpointer itself, but I'm not optimistic. However, I won' t know until I try, hence my WTB post in the classifieds section asking people for busted or broken pinpointers for me to tinker with. Even if I have to McGyver an endcap extension, if it allows me to avoid the 9V battery (and keep the same performance), I'll take it - I hate 9V batteries that much.

Thanks for the detailed and informative post - I learned a lot.

I think your point about the low noise circuitry might be one of the best reasons I've ever heard for using 9V batteries. I can imagine how a pinpointer could really benefit from low noise.

The leak issue is also a good reason, but easily remedied by using NiMH or lithiums and most modern devices are capable of handing cells with 1.2 to 1.7 nominal voltages.

9 minutes ago, phrunt said:

One of the reasons NiCd batteries haven’t been retired yet is their general toughness and resistance to impact, as well as both high and low temperatures. Also, their cycle life measures at around 1,000 charges, which is really impressive. In addition to that, they deliver a better flow of electric current. Although keeping the battery in a state of deep discharge is far from recommended, if you do so with NiCd batteries, they will not damage as easily as their Li-Ion or NiMH cousins. If you look at the whole thing from an economic standpoint, NiCd batteries are also significantly less expensive than the other options.

They're still pretty common in power tools and I'm sure you'll find them in a lot of other products too.

https://www.drillsanddrivers.com/batteries/

I'm not going to argue with you, all I'm saying is make the most of what you've got.   Fisher aren't going to take your F2 back and change it's battery type for you.

 

Maybe it's a southern hemisphere thing, but I haven't seen a power tool using NiCd technology in several years.

And I'm not asking for Fisher Research Labs to take my F2 back. I'm asking for them to make their F2 replacement use something other than a 9V battery. Huh, low and behold, they have with the F22. Now if only pinpoint manufacturers could figure things out...

4 minutes ago, phrunt said:

Maybe I'm lazy, but I'd prefer to have one battery than four or eight, to me paying $14 for a battery is a non-issue, and I think in our money they were $21 but I found it to be very cheap for batteries that are going to last me a few years.  I spend more on some lunch.

You don't know what expensive batteries are until you have to buy them for your GPX detector, I think from memory it cost about $450 for my last battery pack ?

When I first got my GBP I tried an Energizer single use battery in it, lasted about 2 days of detecting and cost about 1/4 of the cost of my Powerex batteries which have now lasted well over a year so far and give just as good life during their usage lasting around 2 full days also.

There is no right or wrong, no battery is antiquated.  Smoke alarms and the remote control cars and so on didn't move off 9v onto AA, in most cases they'd now use a Lipo or Lithium-ion.  Some might say AA's are old antique rubbish and everything should be using Lithium-ion battery packs.  You have to deal with what you've got, and if your detector takes 9v you just buy the best 9v battery you can get to make the most of it, and for me that's been the Powerex batteries.

But that's false. There's a reason no consumer product in widespread sale uses a NiCd battery, for example.

And yes, I have to deal with what I've got. So for the time being, I use my F2. But that logic doesn't apply to everything. For example, I don't yet have a quality pinpointer. So battery type is a very strong factor in what my future one will be.

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

You can calm down your dislike for 9v batteries by buying these Rechargables, you may in fact start to like them ?

https://www.mahaenergy.com/powerex-9-6v-230mah-1-pack/

For those that have discovered the joys of being an Eneloop owner with their AA batteries, these are basically the 9v counterpart.

Those seem like a decent option, except for the fact that:

1) They have about 50% of the capacity of an alkaline 9V battery. They might be able to handle relatively high current draws better, though.

2) They still require the user to have an additional battery type on hand, keep track of and support.

3) Price: that's $14 for one battery. Even collector's edition eneloops aren't that expensive on a per-cell cost basis.

When I was a growing up* I had so many things that ran on 9V batteries. The smoke detectors in my home, my walkie talkies, multiple R/C transmitters for my cars, trucks and boats and at least two radios. Today (several decades later), do you know how many devices I have that run off of 9V batteries? Just two: My Fisher F2 and its accompanying aftermarket pinpointer - both of these are used in the metal detecting hobby. Practically everything else I own that runs off of AAA or AA batteries. If it uses C or D batteries, I have special adapters for those where I can use my AA eneloops. And if something is absolutely mission critical and requires very low-temp performance, I also have a few Energizer Lithium AA batteries.

In this day and age, why the heck would anyone make a device that uses such an antiquated, inefficient and borderline useless battery type, unless there was a very special reason for doing so? Do I really want to use a battery that has internal resistance that's multiple orders of magnitude higher? The only thing I can think of (using pinpointers as an example) is that when Garrett designed their carrots, they wanted to keep research, development and production costs down so they stuck with the 9V battery. But that's a lousy excuse given how the newest pinpointers are compatible with AA batteries or use built-in lithiums. I'm suspecting it was laziness or arrogance of a manufacturer and that both scares and disappoints me as a consumer.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that your unintentional use of a red herring adds further support that there's almost no need for anything designed within the last 15 years (and for use with metal detectors) to use a 9V battery. I know you are trying to help and I appreciate your suggestion. If it weren't for the price, I'd probably buy what you linked to for use in my F2.

*One could argue I'm still growing up

So I'm doing a lot of research here and other message boards about making the most of your time while metal detecting. One thing I knew (and have subsequently seen confirmed online) is that you REALLY need to know your machine well (features, how it responds in different conditions, etc.) to make the most of it.

Given this, how many of you factor in similarity among metal detectors when upgrading (aka: staying within the ecosystem)? For example, I will eventually upgrade from the F2 (assuming I stay in this hobby). Most likely, that will be several years from now because I've told myself any new machine must be funded from finds made by the F2. By that point, I'll know my F2 like it's nobody's business. I imagine it would be "best" for me to stay within the Fisher Labs ecosystem due to my anticipated familiarity with the F2. So given inherent time limitations in learning a new machine, I figure I'd be making finds faster with say an F44 or F75 than a Minelab CTX-3030.

Is this true and if so, how many of you out there take this into consideration when upgrading your machine? I ask because I'm surprised by how little "brand loyalty" I see among metal detectors users. Not that this is a problem, but I just figured more people would find one or two brands and stick with them. Luckily, I have plenty of time to figure out whether I'll stay with Fisher or move on to Garrett, Minelab, White's or some other brand.

1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I have no idea. I use Duracell rechargeable NiMH batteries.

If they came precharged, then they're the LSD type. Even if they're not, if a regular NiMH works, so will the LSD NiMH.

Thanks! 

Thanks to both of you!

6 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I am sure somebody does. They are great pinpointer but reliability has always been mediocre. To drop in your package would have to be exactly the same size as a 9V battery.

Both Fisher and Whites have pinpointers that use AA batteries for those that want to get away from 9V. I imagine the vast majority of people just don’t care.

Yeah, from pictures I've gleaned so far, it looks like the length of the 3xAAA drop in will be an issue. I guess it'll depend on the amount of space that exists between the end cap and the bottom of the 9V battery.

I noticed that Fisher and the Whites TRX can use AA batteries, but I'm worry about the F-Pulse's ability to use eneloops and the TRX's price.

Keep in mind that having your pinpointer go off just a few extra seconds during each use can have a drastic effect on the battery. I doubt I'm going that far out on a limb to suggest that the vibrate feature and beeping are the two biggest battery guzzling features of any decent propointer. I'd spitball that a pinpointer that's on but not detecting anything pulls anywhere from 1/2 to 1/10 of the current of a pinpointer that's beeping and vibrating.

18 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I hear you. I hate the bloody things. I went 9V rechargeable but mainly have tried to get rid of anything using a 9V. I think the only thing I have left that uses one is my Garrett Pro-Pointer AT. Which may be why I grab my F-Pulse now. None of my detectors use a 9V now.

That's why I hope to develop a 3xAAA upgrade to convert popular 9V battery pinpointers. I know I can make the conversion for less than $10. The only question is whether I can make it a drop in upgrade or one where modification to the endcap or battery compartment is necessary. I just need some broken pinpointers to work on.

You wouldn't happen to have a broken 9V Garrett pinpointer, would you?

Thanks!

Does the F-Pulse work well with LSD NiMH AA batteries?

Why do so many metal detecting companies use 9V batteries for their products? What is this, 1979? 9V batteries aren't even used exclusively in smoke detectors anymore.

I want a new pinpointer but I'm absolutely appalled that so many of them use 9V batteries. Is there a logical or engineering reason for this?