mh9162013

2 minutes ago, F350Platinum said:

A good trick for me is to clear a small area of all targets, big enough for the coil with some space around it. I ground balance in that spot. Useful when there is iron everywhere.

But that doesn't address the situation where your ground conditions are changing as you move around during your hunt. Reground balancing in your new location may not be possible due to heavy concentrations of trash. This is a problem I face, at least. I've assumed there's nothing I could do about it, but now that I realize tracking GB might be an option...

7 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

On Equinox ground noise manifests as continuous or machine gun hits in the -9 to -7 range.  When ferrous is discriminated out, it might not be noticeable though you might experience some slight depth loss but target IDs should not be affected.

Hold up. I must be confused or missing something here.

If my Equinox 600 is not ground balanced properly, my target IDs should still be unchanged?

I've noticed that the same type of coin will read differently depending on the soil conditions with respect to mineralization and moisture levels (conductivity?).

Sometimes, a copper penny is 20. But other times, I've had a copper penny ring up as high as the mid 20s. I assumed this variation was, at least in part, due to diffferences in how my machine was ground balanced for given soil conditions. Then there's the fact that without proper ground balancing, my MIQ machines have had a habit of chasing ghost signals deep in my clay soil after a recent rain...

6 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

Simple, if you are hearing ground noise then you should rebalance.

What do you mean, ground noise? Like iron grunts? I normally hunt in Park 1 or 2, so those are discriminated out.

I thought ground conditions could change such that there's no noticeable change in the sounds you're hearing. Except the tones and VDIs will start corresponding to targets of different conductivity levels. 

So in one section of a field, copper pennies might ring up as a 22, but in another part of the field, the same pennies might ring up as a 24. However, reground balancing could avoid this shift in VDIs (or tones, depending on how your tones "bins" are set up).

Or am I missing something?

Another issue with reground balancing is many places I hunt are so trashy, finding a clear spot in the ground is difficult. I can't just stop a hunt and reground balance. It might take several minutes of walking around to find a spot that's trash free to reground balance...and this location could be far away from the place I was originally hunting at.

5 hours ago, longbow62 said:

. I do not trust ground tracking when I can just do a auto GB when I think I need to.

But how can you always be sure when you need to adjust your GB or not?

I've never used the tracking GB on the Equinox 600, but on my next hunt, I will. The reason is because I think my soil conditions change even if it's not obvious.

If I'm hunting a curb strip, then cross the street to hunt a grassy field at my local park, I'll know to adjust my GB or deal with the consequences, w/e they might be. But when moving from one part of a grassy field to another, there's no obvious way (short of digging targets and noticing a pattern b/w VDIs and targets) to know that your ground conditions could be changing in a way to alter your VDIs. And if there is a way, I don't what it is.

I've noticed in yards and in parks that a given area might look the same on the surface, but the soil profile is changing depending on where you are. For example, the amount of milder brown/black soil above my mineralized clay lay gets thicker or thinner as you move across a yard or field at a park. Or, older soil is replaced with fill dirt. It's these changing underground conditions (even though the surface seems unchanged) that I think the tracking GB might be helpful for me. We shall see.

I'm fine with the XP's price too. In no way am I condemning what XP is charging...unlike other companies *cough* Garrett *cough*.

I'm just saying that for me, XP's higher price is a turn off. But I know I'm just a single potential customer and XP couldn't care less as to what I think. And I know that for many of you who decide not to buy a Deus II, it won't be the price that stops you.

People have different ideas as to what something should cost, whether it's golf equipment, gasoline, hamburgers, metal detectors or healthcare.

6 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

That’s an arbitrary number. Some would say $500, so now you are the high price elitist. 

Some people consider boating or riding dirt bikes a hobby. It’s all relative.

Good points and I agree 100%!

We all have our "price ceilings" for various things in life. For me and metal detectors, it's $1,000 (give or take).

3 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Yeah, delay due to last minute changes requested by testers? Why? We know there will be more updates, so not like delaying it will make it “done.” We know XP will issue updates also. But may as well take early user comments and feedback into account, and update later after we have machines. It’s going to happen, no doubt about it. And still will happen with Legend, just like it did and continues to happen with Simplex. Bottom line is simple - they are not ready to ship yet, and the reasons do not matter. Like Yoda said:

Just speculation, but maybe the changes from the testers are hardware related?

10 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

The full Deus 1 setup broke the $1000 barrier at its original release and the prices have stayed well above $1000 for the full setup since. Paying a few hundred dollars more for a full Deus 2 is a no brainer for people who have experienced Deus 1 or even the ORX.

You're probably right. Except I have never considered a Deus (original) due to its high price.

From my perspective, it's not just whether the detector is worth it or not (it'll find more than its worth). It's that I consider this a hobby and at a fundamental level, it should only cost "hobby-level prices." In my mind, going over $1,000 turns something from a hobby into a job or a necessity (like a car, fridge, house, etc.).

It's like some people will never guy a hamburger than costs $50, no matter how good it tastes. Unless it can cure cancer or is the fountain of youth, most people will just pass and settle for something from a chain restaurant (a la Garrett Ace) or local hamburger shop for a few bucks more (Equinox 600).

26 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

XP charging what they are for the Deus II actually makes me more interested in it, not less.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm the exact opposite.

For the Deus II's MSRP, there's almost no way I'd consider using it given how and where I currently hunt. Even if I somehow won the lottery, I probably wouldn't buy it. Or if found some naive seller who was letting a Deus II go for $200, I wouldn't keep it; I'd flip it.

Once a machine breaks the $1,000 barrier, it's really hard for me to justify buying it unless I have a really special (and profitable) application for it.

This is just me, though.

18 minutes ago, Flydog said:

That being said, in your 1st post test results, the "down position" is a tough one and the Vaquero smoked the Equinox.

Probably because of the averaging, though.

The problem with averaging is that the Tesoro is beeping off on an "averaged" target. It's going to be higher than the iron nail, but lower than the clad dime. But how much lower? I guess I could mess with the Discrimination Knob to find out, but I would imagine it's lower than the Zincoln range and would depend on the orientation of the targets, soil conditions, and depth differences b/w the ideal target and the rejected target.

A machine going off on an "averaged" target doesn't mean much to a coin shooter like me. That's b/c it could be chunk of aluminum trash as much as it is a clad dime next to an iron nail. 

And here's the kicker that convinced me to sell the Tesoros: I buried a clad dime next to an iron nail in my backyard about 6 inches down, so well into the highly mineralized clay. The AT Max could pick it up, even in non All Metal mode. The numbers were all over the place, but it picked up on the items in the ground. My Equinox picks up on them too. It also had some variable numbers, although they're more consistent than the AT Max. As for the Vaquero? Unless it was in All Metal mode, it picked up nothing.

30 minutes ago, midalake said:

Possible it might be ferrous targets that are very degraded with large halo effect. Then when one digs the whole item just disappears? 

It's possible, although when I still had my Vanquish 540, it would chase ghost signals in my mineralized soil consistently, after it had rained. And these were good signals (a distinct high tone in perpendicular directions) and a VDI in the upper 20s to lower 30s. That's exactly what I had here.

11 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

The Cibola, Vaquero and other 10 kHz and higher Tesoros were never considered to be slow detectors. They could separate and unmask targets very well in milder dirt. I am not surprised that they did well since they have a much smaller number of filters compared to the Equinox along with much less complicated processing of the return signal.

Most older simultaneous multi frequency detectors suffered from slower or snail's pace recovery speed, below average target separation, minimal unmasking in iron and struggled in moderate to high iron mineralization including those offered by Minelab. Minelab's Multi IQ simultaneous multi frequency technology vastly improved the performance of the Equinox as far as recovery speed, target separation, unmasking in iron and achieving good target ID and depth in moderate to high iron mineralization. Unmasking in aluminum or other targets with similar conductivity is another issue entirely. The bread and butter target range on the Equinox due to its higher operating frequencies is the entire aluminum range from about 2 to 26 or so depending on the size of the aluminum. The Equinox will hit targets in that range really hard.

That definitely explains a lot, Jeff. Thank you for your insight.

Just as an FYI, when I usually hunt, due to the Equinox separation ability, the only thing I have notched out is iron. So when I swing over a moderately trashing area due to aluminum, I often get the classic "machine gun" series of beeps from my machine. But since I'm hearing individual sounds, I'm capable of listening for the high tone of a coin and can hone in on one if I should hear it.

These tests show that if I want to continue hunting in trashy yards and parks (assuming much of the trash is aluminum), I should continue hunting this way and NOT notch out aluminum (as to avoid masking).

11 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I'm surprised the Cibola and Vaquero perform so much differently on your modified MNB, given they are very similar detectors (both operate at 14.5 +- 0.2 kHz and both use the same ED120 Silent Search Discriminator circuit.  It sounds like both had the same coil in your tests (stock 8"x9" concentric).

BTW, it wouldn't be a bad idea to run the tests with no coins present.  I've been surprised in the past when my in-ground testbed was giving a good high tone with a pulltab right next to a coin, thinking I was getting the coin without interference from the pulltab.  But when I took the coin away I got the same high tone!!  (This was ML Equionox in 4 kHz.)

I think the differences in performance b/w the Cibola and Vaquero were due to the analog nature of the machines. There's also the fact that there could have been some slight variations in the Discrimination Knob position. I'm not saying that the Vaquero and Cibola should in theory, have performed identically (I don't know that). But what I am saying is that any differences could have been amplified by the simple nature in how the Tesoros work and are adjusted.

I did do the tests with no coin present. Neither Tesoro could individually pick up each iron nail consistently. When I lowered the discrimination past Iron, all I usually got was a single beep when swinging over Monte's Modified Nail Board.

12 hours ago, Flydog said:

Keep the bias out of scientific experiments. What I mean is you sound as if, in your mind, that the Equinox is the better detector.   Could that old analog detector from the last century beat a modern, digital, multifreq, WhizzBangXLT?

It's not bias, it's a hypothesis. When I did some preliminary test on the Monte's Modified Nail Board, I was impressed with the results. I was even debating whether I should keep the Vaquero or Cibola and sell the Equinox! But then I realized it was the coil and most likely, an averaging of the nail and coin values producing the tone. not either Tesoro machine actually having the unmasking and separation ability that exceeds the Equinox.

But like Jeff mentioned, these Tesoros seem to do hold their own when it comes to separating targets and unmasking, especially considering how old their tech is. 

1 hour ago, steveg said:

For what it's worth, I am in the process of building a couple of carbon-fiber S-shaft prototypes right now, for the Equinox.

I'm sure I speak for many others when I say:

 

16 minutes ago, Tahts-a-dats-ago said:

Very interesting test results. I think the lesson gleaned (for me anyway) is that coil choice, for the conditions, is very important. Maybe I missed something?

That's the lesson I learned from my battery of tests. I still don't understand how the Cibola matched the Equinox in terms of target masking when discriminating, though.

I did a short hunt a few days ago with my 600 in a part of my backyard that I hadn't hunted yet. I ground balanced it and the reading was in the upper 20s or lower 30s, if I recall correctly. This was after a rain, the the soil was damp/wet. 

One target rang up as a dime or so (mid to upper 20s) and it was 4 or 5 arrows down. I dug a hole about 10-12 inches down and there was plenty of that dreaded sopping wet clay. This is the stuff that will make my F-Pulse false on medium sensitivity unless I turn it on with the tip touching the clay. Anyhoo, I swung the coil over the hole and it said that target was still in the hole. I dug some more...and more, but still no target and still the same signal from my Equinox and the F-Pulse said I was no closer to the "target." I then decided to ground balance my Equinox 600 over the hole. It went up more than 20 points and into the 50s. I then checked the hole with the 600 and got no signal.

For the rest of the hunt, I got no more deep, high tone signals, but still had no trouble finding a few pennies and other aluminum junk (I was hoping they'd be nickels).

Did I ground balance out a dime, quarter or other high tone? Maybe. Or maybe I better ground balanced my 600 to the more mineralized clay that's deeper in my ground? These are just my observations that may contribute to the discussion here. I'm also open the suggestions/thoughts, of course.

Update: I just completed the Modified Monte's Nail Board test with the Cibola and Vaquero, but used the Mars Tiger (DD) coil on each. I also adjusted the discrimination so it was one tick mark past Tab (when moving clockwise). Sensitivity remained at 4. This made it possible to pick up the clad dime, but reject the iron (consistently, w/o any chirps or small blips). Here are the results for both:

Coin Position 1 (Up):

Sweep 1: 2

Sweep 2: 1

Sweep 3: 1

Sweep 4: 1

 

Coin Position 1 (Down):

Sweep 1: 1

Sweep 2: 1

Sweep 3: 1

Sweep 4: 1

 

Coin Position 2 (Up):

Sweep 1: 1

Sweep 2: 1

Sweep 3: 1

Sweep 4: 1

 

Coin Position 2 (Down):

Sweep 1: 1

Sweep 2: 1

Sweep 3: 1

Sweep 4: 1

 

Now that's "more like it."

I have a modified Monte's Nail Board that I used recently to compare the Equinox 600 to the Fisher F2, Garrett AT Max and Vanquish 340. You can see my post discussing my results here.

I recently acquired a Tesoro Cibola and Tesoro Vaquero. Both are in great shape and both have the stock 8x9 "monolithic" coils (are these concentric?). I tested both on the same Modified Monte's Nail Board using the same parameters as my previous test. Just as a refresher:

Coin Position 1 (Up) = the dime is in the middle coin position, but the dime is on the same plane as the nails. 

Coin Position 1 (Down) = the dime is in the middle coin position, but the dime is below the plane (about 2.5 inches) the nails are on.

Coin Position 2 (Up) = the dime is in the side coin position, but the dime is on the same the plane nails are on.

Coin Position 2 (Down) = the dime is in the side coin position, but the dime is below the plane (about 2.5 inches) the nails are on.

4 = The metal detector gave a tone and/or VDI response that would definitely result in me digging the target.

3 = The metal detector gave a tone and/or VDI response that would likely result in me digging the target.

2 = The metal detector gave a tone and/or VDI response that would likely result in me NOT digging the target.

1 = The metal detector gave a tone and/or VDI response that would definitely result in me NOT digging the target.

 

Here are the Equinox 600's results and settings: The Equinox 600 was set up in Park 1 where everything was stock, except I adjusted F2 = 0. Sensitivity was at 10 (out of 25). The Equinox 600 was using the stock (11") coil.

Coin Position 1 (Up):

Sweep 1: 4

Sweep 2: 1

Sweep 3: 3

Sweep 4: 4

 

Coin Position 1 (Down):

Sweep 1: 4

Sweep 2: 1

Sweep 3: 1

Sweep 4: 1

 

Coin Position 2 (Up):

Sweep 1: 4

Sweep 2: 2

Sweep 3: 2

Sweep 4: 2

 

Coin Position 2 (Down):

Sweep 1: 4

Sweep 2: 1

Sweep 3: 1

Sweep 4: 1

 

 

Here are the Vaquero's results and settings: Discrimination nob was set to Iron, sensitivity was set to 4 and I was using the stock 8x9 coil.

Coin Position 1 (Up):

Sweep 1: 4

Sweep 2: 4

Sweep 3: 4

Sweep 4: 4

 

Coin Position 1 (Down):

Sweep 1: 4

Sweep 2: 3

Sweep 3: 4

Sweep 4: 3

 

Coin Position 2 (Up):

Sweep 1: 4

Sweep 2: 2

Sweep 3: 4

Sweep 4: 4

 

Coin Position 2 (Down):

Sweep 1: 2

Sweep 2: 3

Sweep 3: 4

Sweep 4: 3

 

 

Here are the Cibola's results and settings: Discrimination nob was set to Iron, sensitivity was set to 4 and I was using the stock 8x9 coil.

Coin Position 1 (Up):

Sweep 1: 4

Sweep 2: 4

Sweep 3: 4

Sweep 4: 4

 

Coin Position 1 (Down):

Sweep 1: 1

Sweep 2: 1

Sweep 3: 1

Sweep 4: 2

 

Coin Position 2 (Up):

Sweep 1: 3

Sweep 2: 1

Sweep 3: 1

Sweep 4: 3

 

Coin Position 2 (Down):

Sweep 1: 1

Sweep 2: 1

Sweep 3: 1

Sweep 4: 2

 

Pretty impressive, eh? Yet the Equinox 600 had clearly superior recovery speed. But what I found interesting was that when I compared the Equinox 600 and Cibola, they were similar in regards to target masking. Here's my rough test:

The Equinox 600 was set up in Park 2, F2=0, sensitivty was 10 and I notched out everything below 17 (everything else was stock). I placed a Zincoln between two modern aluminum can pulltabs. I placed the Zincoln between the 2 pulltabs in a straight line with equal distance b/w the pulltabs and coin. I then swung my Equinox coil over the line and saw if it detected the coin and discriminated out the pulltabs. I then moved both pulltabs in closer to the Zincoln while keeping all 3 pieces of metal in a straight line. There was a point where, during the swing, the Equinox failed to beep on the coin. I'd estimate this was when the pulltabs were about 5 inches (maybe?) on each side of the coin. However. if I honed in the on coin and did those mini "wiggle" swings, the coil could detect the coin (so the separation was there with the coil, but the recovery speed wasn't, apparently).

Anyways, I did the same test with the Cibola and sets the discrimination so that the coin could be clearly detected and the pulltabs not detected (discriminated out). When I did the same above test with the Cibola, it performed virtually the same as the Equinox 600, ie the pulltabs masked out the coin at almost the exact same point and the coil could still be "wiggled" over the coin only and still detect it, but not during a "full" swing.

I still need to test the Tesoros more, and I'll be selling at least one of them (if not both). But I wanted to hear your thoughts as to what I could do differently to get better results with either the Vaquero, Cibola or Equinox 600.

Don't my results with Monte's Modified Nail Board seem a little...too good to be true for the Tesoros? What am I missing? Is it b/c I'm using a "monolithic" stock coil (is this a concentric coil?) and the coil is averaging the nail and coin values, which still come up above iron? I think I answered this question; see below/updated post.

And same for the target masking when comparing the Cibola to the Equinox 600 using the Zincoln and pulltabs. I'm not surprised by the Cibola's results, but the Equinox 600? What could I adjust on the Equinox 600 to reduce this target masking (besides getting a smaller coil)?

This link is now broken.

Is there an updated link or source for Tesoro parts?

That should help. But it might still slide more than I want. But it's definitely worth trying, thanks!

13 minutes ago, F350Platinum said:

I'm just spoiled by the Equinox and its magnetic PD port. 😀 I could probably take bungeeing the battery to it in a pinch, but only if the connector was external. I'll just have to make sure I have the Carrot in my truck with a lithium battery in it, or add another 190g to my belt, but I like to travel light🤣

Maybe it's just my Garrett Carrot, but I've noticed that this will lead to unreliable operation due to the 9V battery contacts pushing down on the battery terminals of the Carrot (then they get "stuck" that way, requiring extra spacers to be used in the battery cap. This is similar to the issue of storing gun magazines fully loaded and weakening the springs). Also, while I haven't confirmed it, I think the Carrot has a small bit of parastic draw. So if your battery is in storage for a while (12+ months), it could be closer to dead than full when you finally need it.

Another option is to install the 9V battery upside down, but the cap won't fully close (although it closes far enough to create a waterproof seal).

1 hour ago, F350Platinum said:

Interesting update:

Just for the heck of it I decided to try the pointer with an external battery plugged in as if in an emergency.

Sadly the Xpointer will not turn on when a battery is plugged in. This is why an external fast charging (PD) magnetic connector would add a significant feature.

I wonder if that is deliberate. Using a pinpointer like that would probably be asking for trouble with all the dirt and moisture that can potentially come inside.

On second thought,they advertise being able to use it with headphones without the rear cap/speaker on...

3 minutes ago, F350Platinum said:

I found out the battery life is 14 hours, so maybe 2 6-hour days

That's a bit better. I normally detect in 1-4 hour "sessions," so it seems like it would last me several hunting sessions.

I also like how it has different colored lights for the different type of targets it detects (ferrous v. nonferrous).