Tom_in_CA

There is no doubt that a PI will get coins that a VLF is "not going to hit on".   That does not need to be "read and re-read"  It is undisputed.  The question is :  Can that ability be parlayed into junky park turf hunting ?  Or is "The devil in the details" ?

Also :  Greg is one of two dealers in CA who thinks they can tell aluminum apart from gold .  With certain machines.  Not sure if he's now including the TDI in this claim.   But if you challenge them to "show this ability" in actual field tests, you will hear the sound of crickets.  

Here's the trick of the mind they are falling for :  If you wave a few gold rings, and a few tabs and foil wads, in front of a detector in an air test, THEN YES:  Each one will give a "different sound".   So at first blush, it might *seem* that a person can tell "aluminum apart from gold".  Right ?   But no :  What this fails to realize is that SO TOO does every gold ring sound different from each other.   And SO TOO does every random aluminum blob or tab-type sound different from each other.   Any attempt to alert them to this mind trick falls on deaf ears.  So you have the poor buyers, who have seen this air-test-parlor trick. Who are convinced that if they "ascend to this master sage level", that they can somehow tell aluminum apart from gold.

Mind you, no one's asking to leave "all the gold behind" and dig "only gold".  Heck, most of us would be happy if the odds were 50 to 1, or 100 to 1, etc....   So when you try to pin these guys down on what the ratios would be (assuming their claims are true ) in junky urban parks, you begin to realize that this nothing more than random eventual odds.  Or simple ring-enhancement programs of sorts.  

20 hours ago, Glenn in CO said:

I couldn't think of his name of the top of my head, so I did a little research and his name is Greg Moscini. ....

Greg M. will NOT be able to use a TDI, or any pulse, and pull more old coins from park-turf-hunting.  I have dueled with him before.   He's a nice guy, and a known reputable dealer.  But no .... he would not be able to use a pulse to out-do a standard machine in the turf , with anyone who is of an on-par level.

If someone wanted to compare machines with him, they would need to be *very careful* on stating what "successful" means, ahead of time.   To me, it means:  most old coins .  But if someone wants to lower his disc. and strip-mine, and gets on a V-nickel or something, that the other guy (who was cherry-picking) would have passed, then.... that needs to be stated ahead of time.   So that BOTH of them can lower their disc. 

If my desire were for gold rings, then I wouldn't be strip-mining junky urban turfed parks. I'd simply go to the beach.  

I know that some people think that by entering into a 'strip-mine' mindset, that they'll have the "best of all worlds".  But it never works like that for junky urban turfed park hunting.  At the end of the day, the person who was strip-mining will have a pouch full of junk, clad, a possible wheatie or two, and a .... yes ..... V nickel.   Because he spent all his time digging non-old-coin-signals.  While the other guy has 10 or 15 wheaties, a few silvers, and ... yes ... no V-nickels.   Ok, you tell me :  Who got the most oldies ?  See ?

So the objective will need to be stated ahead of time. 

6 minutes ago, Tom_in_CA said:

....  I would love to meet and compare over flagged signals with him.

But if you're referring to the fellow who thinks he can tell aluminum apart from gold, then ... no ... his technique is to "strip-mine".  And then ... sure anyone who strip-mines turf will, yes, eventually get a ring or a V-nickel that the cherry-picker (who was angling for deep high conductors) will miss.  This is a given.  So the goal would need to be pre-stated.  If it's "who comes in with the most old silver at the end of the day", then THAT is the test I'm curious about.    Not "who can strip-mine and get a nickel or tinsel thin chain", etc.....  If that were my objective, then sure:  I'd enter into relic mindset, and then I too can strip-mine.  

18 minutes ago, Glenn in CO said:

Never advocated or recommend using a TDI in a iron riddle site or area.

If I remember correctly there was a White’s dealer in the Bay Area using a TDI and was very successful in parks.

I guess if we happen to meet sometime in the future you will be wondering!

No.  There is no Whites dealer in the Bay area using a TDI in park-turf, and being "very successful", that I know of. 

You're not talking about the clown that thinks he can tell aluminum apart from gold ?  With "sounds and tones", are you ?  If so, his claims go silent in a heartbeat (and  you hear the sounds of crickets), when you invite him out to the nearest blighted urban park.  And say "show me how much gold you can get, while passing any amount of aluminum".   And if you ask him for ratios of gold vs aluminum when his supposed "art of differentiation" is applied:  It becomes immediately apparent that he's just doing random odds.  Or old-fashioned ring enhancement strategy.  And is NOT "telling aluminum apart from gold".   Did you mean that guy ?

I know of no one in CA  using the TDI for turf .  And when you say "successful", are you talking about gold jewelry ?  If so, sure, you can't beat a TDI for ability @ low conductors.   But ... heck ... since when did ANY machine lack for low conductors in junky turf ?  You can turn down the disc. knob on ANY machine, and "fill your apron" full of low conductors , non-stop, in CA parks.

Or did you mean "successful" as in deep old silver ?  If so, I know of no one in CA who is "successful with the TDI" for that.  If you know who this fellow is, I would love to meet and compare over flagged signals with him.

4 minutes ago, Glenn in CO said:

Tom,

I would like to respond to your post with my experience of using the TDI. I got one of the first production run of the TDI’s. My main intention in using the detector was for nugget hunting. Unfortunately the type of gold in the area we hunt the TDI was useless as well as other PI’s. So the TDI basically sat in the closet fo years. Basically using nothing but a VLF type detectors over the years the TDI wasn’t an easy detector to use and understand. This issue of using and understanding was more my fault as it was easier to use a VLF detector and enjoy detecting without second guessing what the detector was telling me.

I finally retired and decided to spend more time and learn how to use the TDI. I met with Reg Sniff a few times local parks and listen and watch how was using the TDI. For some reason I didn’t click with TDI right way and it became a very slow and sometimes difficult learning process. But I was determine to learn how to use the detector and have the success that Reg Sniff had.

I have detected with friends and club members where I hear a potential deep target with the TDI and then have them see if they can get a response. This is what I base my comments on the depth capabilities of the TDI over a VLF detector. Again this based on conditions in local parks in my area, they my not work in other areas.

I’m glad I committed to learning on how to use the TDI and continue to learn the more I use it. My reward is finding older coins each time I use it.

I'm not disputing your experience.  In concluding that your TDI, with the proper ears and training, can spank a normal coin-machine in turf.   I'm just saying that:  I'd love to see it in actual action. 

To see in action (versus claims) is typically when ANY of us "switches machines", eh ?  Ie.: When you see your buddy spank you, then you "perk up" and take note, eh ?   And if he shows you a flagged signal that you have to admit "I wouldn't have heard".  And then he proceeds to dig a barber or seated at a foot, then .... no more talk or claims.   Then there's actual in-field-comparisons.   And this "in-field-comparisons" is what has driven-the-market for 60+ yrs.   BFO to TR all-metal.  TR all-metal to TR disc.  TR disc. to motion disc.   and so forth, up-to-the-present.    Each time/evolution, if/when you talk to the old-timers, it is invariably that they saw the limitations of their own gear, with actual in-field-results.  Not just claims, but actual side-by-side results.

For example :  When the Explorers (back in the XS and II days ~20 yrs. ago) were still unheard of in CA, a particular fellow was posting his show & tell from certain hammered parks, in his particular city.   That I happened to know, for a fact, were hammered.   Such that I'd knock myself silly to get another few wheaties or a silver there.  Yet he'd routinely post "3 silver dimes and a dozen wheaties".  HHhhmmmm.  You can bet several of us, uh....  "took note".

We were able to get the guy to agree to meet us in a certain park . Where silver *starts* at 8" (7" or less is typically clad).   And the results were earth-shattering:   He could show us signals (to our Whites, Fishers, etc...) that we had to admit we would not have heard (or couldn't have made a proper "call" over).  Yet he was getting them with ease, and correctly "calling" them time after time .   You can bet that within 3 or 4 short years, the ONLY thing you saw being swung in CA, was Minelab.  Doh !

If someone sees a claim like this, and goes to buy his own pulse and rush to the urban blighted park, he might fail and hate it.   But guess what ?  The proponents would merely say : "You didn't practice long enough". Or "You didn't have it set right", etc.....   See ?   So it's NEVER conclusive for someone to try it on their own and say "this sucks".   The better way is to get two acknowledged pro's, and let them do some flagged testing.   And yes, there's ways to prevent bias in such tests (the subject of another post).

There was a fellow here at the beach swinging a TDI on an eroded beach zone, that was RIDDLED with iron.  And ... granted, he no doubt got deep.  And ... granted, he could no doubt get tinsel thin chains.   And .... granted, he could no doubt cut nasty black sand.  Yet at the end of each day, we had 3x or 4x his goodie-count.   By the end of that erosion episode, we spotted him sporting a conventional machine.  But I suppose the push-back would be to say he was doing it wrong, or needed more practice, right ?

44 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

It's a nice narrative you have Tom, so just roll with it. If you doubt a GPX 5000 can hit coins deeper than your VLF there is not much that can be done for you. If you actually thought that to be true, then you might be able to envision situations where that might be used to advantage. Your mistake is in thinking that I and others are advocating a PI as a direct replacement for a VLF. You make it clear why that would be silly, and in turn that's why I'd not advocate for it. The entire premise is classic red herring, and I don't want to play.

You should haul your VLF to Diggin in Virginia for a lesson in PI vs VLF, if it is something you actually cared enough about to open your mind. Talk to those folks that have exhausted what a VLF can do, and have turned to PI as a result. Do they dig junk? Yes. What of it? I truly think you are missing the point of it all.

On the contrary, I know-for-a-fact that a GPX 5000 can hit coins deeper than any standard discriminator coin/relic machine can.   Heck, they can get a coin to 1.5 ft. with ease.  Right ?  Versus a standard discriminator that starts to waffle on dimes over 8 or 9" deep.  And starts to waffle on quarters at 10" deep, etc....   No dispute there !

If simple "balls to the walls depth" were the issue-at-hand, then what you are saying is true.  No questions asked.  Ok, then why aren't we seeing guys take the GPX 5000 to junky urban turfed parks and digging those deeper silver coins ?  Why were the guys I saw with GPX 5000 "nowhere to be found" at the iron-ridden cellar hole locations in the VA hunt ?

And if you are not advocating the PI as a park machine that can spank a standard machine, then I stand corrected.  Someone on this thread made the claim.  I thought you were confirming it.  If not, I stand corrected.

17 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Got nothing to prove to anyone else, ...

Sure.  Yes.  And so the claim goes on to exist as just that :  A claim.  😕  It Might be true, it might not.  Because the claimant says just what you're saying:  "I've got nothing to prove".   🙄

But the moment any "claim" goes to be shown as meritorious (in actual field tests by known aces in-those-fields), then:  The world rushes to avail themselves of the new and proven mousetraps.  They can not argue with side-by-side flagged testing results.   It's no longer "just a claim" now.

And such has been the case of all the leaps of tech. in md'ing that we've seen in our mutual decades .   When the older school folk see their #sses get kicked, then :  News spreads like wildfire .  And everyone else rushes to avail themselves of the better mousetraps.   

But if there is never any such tests going on, then alas:  These steps never come to fruition 😞

And when I read your above quote, I couldn't help but wonder "where have I heard that come-back-line before ?".   🤔  Then I remembered :  It was with dowsing:  The same fall-back line occurs from the dowser-faithful:   When the dowser is challenged to "show me" and "let's test it" and "let's compare", then:   His fall-back lines are identical.

That's not to say that the claimant's claims aren't true and meritorious !  It's just that:  You have to wonder why they aren't "chomping at the bit" to show the silly-old-schoolers that it can indeed be done.   I understand that you're busy, you're hours away, you don't care, etc.... I get it .  But it's odd that, if this is true, that *someone*, *somewhere* (even if not you), isn't simply introducing this new and better mousetrap to the world.  Instead, it's exactly the opposite :  Those that have tried to insist it can work to outpace standard machines in all relic and park-turf scenarios, generally disappear and are never heard from again, the moment a nail-ridden or trash-ridden location presents itself. 

Perhaps these persons simply didn't "practice long enough" or "didn't have their settings done correctly" or "didn't have the right machine", etc.....   Ok, sure .  But then :   you gotta wonder.

3 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

It's always fun watching VLF people talk about pulse machines and what they can't do. Gives me warm fuzzies, it does. 

Steve, one of these days let's meet in an appointed Sacramento park .  That's only a few hours drive from both you and me.  And let's do some turf hunting :  You with a pulse, and me with a standard machine.   Would LOVE to see the results.  Ok ?  🧐

52 minutes ago, Glenn in CO said:

 Tom in my area the answer is no. I and my friend who uses a TDI Pro get a clear audio response where someone using a Equinox or CTX3030 get a iffy or no response.

 

My TDI is very stable in Ground Balance mode, Ground Balance mode off is very annoying.

 

Yep and a lot of my detecting friends that got spanked!

My TDI was modified as well as my friend’s TDI Pro was modified by Reg Sniff.

Thanx for answering all that.   If you ever make your way out to CA, I would LOVE to do some side-by-side flag-testing. 

20 hours ago, Glenn in CO said:

 

My main detector for parks is the TDI. I will list the settings I use and why I use them. With these settings I

Glenn,

It's no secret that the TDI can be made to ID nails (down to a certain depth anyhow), and also discern high vs low conductors.  HOWEVER :  The moment anyone goes to avail himself of these settings-tricks, is the moment that his depth is now reduced to that of normal standard machines.   Right ?

When I toyed with the TDI,  I chose a particular school yard where I knew that some more deep wheatie/silver type signals existed.  I went out and flagged some suspected deep wheat/silver type signals with my Exp. II.   And then proceeded with all the "tricks" on the TDI, over these flagged signals.   And also over nearby flagged *obvious* foil, tabs, iron, etc... which I also flagged and tested with both machines and settings.  Mind you :  With my Exp. II, I can generally, reliably, get 8 or even up to 9" on a penny/dime type object (in this particular turf that's not too junky).

I came away with the conclusion that the moment I set the TDI to work like a normal discriminating machine (cherry picking for deep silver) is the moment that I might as well use a standard machine.   Not to mention the fact that the TDI is a SQUIRRELLY son of a gun.  Very annoying fishy audio.  

So do tell:  In your opinion, do you think that you can spank the user of a normal standard machine, with your TDI, in regular park-turf hunting ?  If the objective is deeper older coins (and not simply strip-mining clad, blah blah) ?

39 minutes ago, CVISChris said:

Super nice nickel.  I just bought a DEUS so ready to give it a try.  

Chris, one thing you might dislike, on the Deus (if  you're accustomed to other machines), is that the Deus will "ring the bells of Notre Dame" over things like rusty crown caps, domino sized portions of flat-tin, large rusty bolts , etc....  Whereas other machines easily reject such iron, right ?

After much hair-pulling and digging 1000 such cr*p items, I have come to understand what tones a person *could* pass, if they wanted to cut down on the iron-falses.  HOWEVER, I am NOT convinced of this :  If a person is getting the Deus because it's the "cat's meow in seeing through iron-masking", then :  How can he be sure that the iron that he's "passing" isn't masking a goodie below it ? 

In other words, the moment you begin to "be picky" and only dig the signals that are for-sure a conductive target, then :  It seems to me that that means you had a "clear line of sight" to that conductive target.  Such that it had the right audio clues, eh ?  Well gee, if we all had to wait till we had a "clear line of site" to a target, then ... Gee, even my explorer will likewise get a "nice-clean signal" on targets to which aren't masked.  So what's the point of even switching then ?  Aaarrghhh.

So to that extent, I'm a little frustrated with this.   So thus far, I'm only using it for specialized occasions (extreme relicky pursuits), where I'm game to dig a bunch of iron-falses .  It's just the "cost to  pay" to not miss stuff I guess.

And it's kind of site-specific :  If the location was in play up to the 1920s (the throw-away era of rusty soldered can tops, flat tin, etc....), then it can be very punishing.   Yet at another site I hit (which was vacated by 1850-ish), then very little of these type iron items exist, in the first place. 

Anyhow, if you need any coaching , I'll convey what I've learned, the settings, etc...

18 hours ago, CVISChris said:

....  but damn those aching muscles.   

I'll be a sherpa for you.  To carry your tools, dig your holes, etc....  My sherpa rates are very reasonable. Ok ?  😘

9 hours ago, kac said:

.... you can sort of tell iron from non iron as the signal is a bit louder and slightly different ...

Here is where the devil is in the details, if you ask me .  

I have heard many many pulse users say such a thing.  That they can tell the nails (yes, even bent ones) by a "slightly different sound", blah blah.    But when we see these guys show up on nail-riddled beaches, they last all of 20 minutes.  And then we have the beach all to ourselves again   😕

GB :  I know there are some coin/relic guys who will try to use those balls-to-the-walls pulse machines , for coins/relics.  Since, sure, you can "get a coin to 1.5 ft. deep", blah blah.  I saw a few of them guys at the Virginia relic shootout a few years ago.  And asked them "Don't nails give you fits ?"   They only gave rambling feeble replies.

Lo & behold, at a few cellar-home antebellum home sites (which were a THICK carpet of nails), those guys were nowhere to be found.   They steered FAR from any such area.  Meanwhile, guys with standard machines (discriminators) were able to go fish some coins and relics from the mess.

So I can't see the sense.   Unless you're nugget hunting, or hunting the beach (where you're not likely to have ghost-townsy-conditions ), or some such exception.  

And as far as what kac says:  Yes there's some "tricks" you can use to ID nails of some of those type machines.  But guess what ?  The moment you off-tune and start using those tricks, you can now kiss that fabled depth goodbye.  You are left with no-more depth than a standard coin machine. So why bother ?   Any iron-ID trick on those will only work for the top 6 or 8" or whatever (at best) .  Everything beyond that starts to sound the same.  

Chris, you are just KILLING it !   Have you figured out what this site was used for ?   Like, was it some sort of known camp-center type location ?   Or traveler stopping spot ?  Or just random cellar hole that has no text-history that you can figure out the purpose/name of the location ?

Or ... if it will make it more simple for you, just give me the GPS location, and I'll do all the research for ya !  😍

I never get tired of beach black toast silver   😍

mn90403, What are you specifically asking ?  To see pictures of beaches in the old days, versus now ?  I've taken a bunch of pictures in the last 10 to 15 yrs, whenever I've been hunting erosion events up here where I'm at (Monterey bay beaches).   And sure, if you took a picture now, the "cut" (or scallop or slope, etc...) is now gone.   I can show you pix of some erosion event lay-of-land, but unless I went and took the same vantage point now, you wouldn't really know what you were looking at (ie.: it wouldn't be a before and after pix, unless I went to the same spots today with camera).

I regret not getting pictures of the 1982-83 El Nino (6 ft cuts that stretched for blocks long in some cases !).  And I regret not getting pix during the 1996-97 El Nino.  But go figure, that was before digital cameras.    I'm sure you can find google images of erosion on CA beaches (including So. CA) during past heavy storm years.

From what I hear, a lot of So. CA beaches, are so enormous like you see them now (where the water is seeminly a 5 minute walk from the parking lot, doh !), Because in the 1940s and '50s, the army corps of engineers made scores of jetties all up and down the So. CA coast.  And those "trap sand", making enormous beaches.   I guess to protect against erosion.

So if you ever find old pictures from, say, before the 1940s, of your So. CA beaches, you'll notice that many of them were quite a bit narrower.  Such that, back then, high-water storm events might bring waves all the way back to what is now parking lots and beach side streets and cliffs.  But today, you could never in a million years imagine the water reaching that far back.  Eh ?

A micro-example of that, in my area, is Santa Cruz Main beach (the "Boardwalk") :  In the mid 1960s they made the downstream Twin Lakes Yacht harbor jetty, so that the pleasure boats could come and go through the channel that the jetty protects.   That had the affect of "backing up" the sand, for all the beaches north of that (since wet sand "migrates" with the tides and swells).   So if you look at 1950s photo of Santa Cruz main beach, versus now, it's pretty sad.  And it's the reason why silver and old coins is rarely found now on those beaches.  Even after storm erosion.   Because it's simply never getting down to yester-year levels anymore.

There's been never ending talk, for years, about supposed machines that will have the best of pulse-world , while at the same time, TID/Disc. ability like standard coin-machines.    So that you can effortlessly go into jet-black wet-salt sand, getting fabled depth, ... AND be able to pass nails and bobby pins *all at the same time*.   Who can argue with that, eh ?  It's no secret that some beach pulse machines can get a dime to a foot deep, so it's merely a matter of adding the ability to disc. out iron, and presto, you have the perfect machine.  Right ?

But alas, any efforts to do this is always as kac says:   Any such disc. (ability to pass nails, or discern TID's) is only good for the top half of the depth (down to 4 or 5" tops ?).  Beyond that, everything sounds the same.  So if you want the fabled depth, you kiss discrimination goodbye.  

Are these from the same location as all the other recent goodies ?  Sheesk you are kicking b#tt !   Is the spring grass growth heights starting to be a problem up in G.R. country about now ?

You "stopped by the police dept. and asked them 'where can I detect' ?"

I wonder what would happen if I asked my local police dept. (or nearest beach agency rep) that question.  

I never get tired of seeing the charcoal grey silver disks in my scoop !  Great pix.

14 hours ago, kac said:

... Some the parks here close at sunset but most of the time people don't care....

I notice that you add the suffix that " .... most people don't care".  

I lived in a home across the street from a city park in my city for many years.  That had the obligatory sign "Park closes at sunset".    Yet it wasn't uncommon to see people who still (gasp) walked their dog after sunset.  Or a couple on a romantic late-night stroll, or whatever.   The park connected two separate neighborhoods in our part of the city.  So the sidewalk going through needed to be walked on, if you were going one neighborhood to the other.  

So it was exactly as you say:  "No one cared".

The ONLY time I ever saw the sign enforced, was one night when some teenagers were having a keg party down there.   Some neighbor (whose back-yard fence was right adjacent) apparently called the cops to all the yipping and a lights of the teens frolicking around.   The cops came, and sent the teens packing.  That was the ONLY time I ever saw this "obligatory" sign enforced.

So in my opinion, that's the purpose of signs like that.  So that no one thinks they're going to homestead the park and camp out overnight.  Or to break of a late night party, etc.....   But for a singular dude md'ing ?  I highly doubt anyone gives 2 sh#ts.  

The reason I bring this up, is often-time, when I say that I do nice manicured turf at "2 am" (so as to keep gripers at bay), someone else is sure to point out the "park closes as sunset" type signs issue.   Ok, sure, let them languish at home.  Be my guest.  But I agree with you that any such boiler-plate sign is typically only enforced in cases of someone(s) being an utter nuisance, attracting attention, garnering someone else calling the cops, etc......  

Nice going Andrew !

I do all of my "nice manicured turf" park-hunting @ > 9pm.  Because that's when restaurants close, traffic on streets dies down.  People are done walking their dogs, etc...   Full moon nights.   So peaceful.  So serene.