Jump to content

Argyris

Member
  • Posts

    71
  • Joined

  • Last visited

1 Follower

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

Argyris's Achievements

Contributor

Contributor (2/6)

124

Reputation

  1. Thanks my friend! Fingers crossed it will! 🙂 Will share experiences soon!
  2. Hey Joe...since theory is the same, I'm expecting it to apply regardless the machine. And I found numerous posts and guys using this trick...especially old timers.... However, which offset you will apply (negative or positive) has to do with the conditions first, and of course the reason you wanna mess with it. Common application is slightly negative when inland to run just a little hotter and help detect deep silver coins in hot grounds for example, or slightly positive when in salt to not completelly eliminate the tiny gold signals that are overlaping with salt itself. I have kept a phrase that I found while searching for this which tells it all "Negative offset for minerals/bad dirt/depth - positive offset for smaller low conductors.....old school stuff that still has merit" (more can be found here in an interesting thread started by tnsharpshooter in the DD forum: https://www.dankowskidetectors.com/discussions/read.php?2,33662,33674 ) ps. made a little self explanatory scale in my excel to help me visualize the GB offset apllication (for Kruzer GB scales)
  3. Kac yes, the last video is with an Impact indeed. However, if you remember the 1st video of this thread (which caused my curiosity), the same guy was using this GB positive offset trick with a Multi Kruzer @19khz in beach mode...not with an Impact! The Impact video above just shows how GB Offset works in more detail and helps to understand this easier. Also, it's obvious that as he also states, a slightly possitive offset (to allow small gold signals to not be cancelled), means a slight increase of the GB value from whatever the auto GB value is for salt in our area....so if auto GB shows a 3-5, a slightly positive offset would be some additional points higher (eg 7-9)...and of course will only work if machine is still stable in salt. Same case if we needed negative offset while inland to run a little hotter for those deep silver coins...some points lower from whatever phase value GB would be. Interesting is that, since starting this thread and started searching about it, I also found other guys that use positive GB offseting with their Kruzers or other VLFs in salt...and of course numerous old timers that use GB offseting when inland (negative offset in this case). In any case, the theory behind this is always the same regardless what machine....GB offseting it's not something new.... and of course doesn't mean that will work in all conditions! But I think it's nice to understand the Hows & Whys for our machines instead of just following "common" settings...At least for me, it helped me better understand how the "substractive nature" of GB works in general 🙂
  4. Thanks 🙂 Your "squelch control" similarity pretty much describes the actual GB outcome. At a moment, I thought that I forced this thread on the "overthinking" side a bit, but in the end I'm really glad that I understood how this GB offset thing could work for my benefit if conditions allow, especially in salt underwater where I'm after every possible gold piece... Glad you liked it 🙂
  5. A little update for anyone interested: the video below shows that my final conclusions some posts ago for the GB positive offset while in salt were correct, and can be used for our benefit if conditions allow. When auto ground balancing in salt water, seems that the detector performs a pretty aggressive (more than needed) auto salt cancelling in order to completely eliminate the salt signal, usually settling down to the lowest GB value of 00. As we know, tiny low conductive targets (small gold...chains, earrings etc) overlap within the salt range, so when we completelly eliminating the salt signal this also elimitates these tiny low conductors. Depending on the salinity levels of our beaches, we can possibly manually set our GB value a little less aggresive while in salt (=slightly positive offset, eg 07 instead of 00), which will slightly reposition the "fine limit line" between salt signals vs tiny gold signals, allowing these weak gold signals to introduce themsleves while still running fairly stable & eliminating most of the salt. (It's the same logic like when inland hunting, we set our GB slightly lower -negative offset this time since we're in the high side of the scale- to strengthen a deep coin's signal while still barrely hear ground noise). I think everything makes sense now 🙂 Enjoy the vid, it's pretty self explanatory.
  6. Kac, Rick, many thanks for your replies guys....much appreciated. Hope to have a new MK soon in my hands to clear everything out...theory is nice (especially in quarantine time) & learned a lot already through our converstations to shorten my learning curve some (I always do this "learning preparation" while I wait for a new detector...you can call it excitement!), but nothing compares to real testing of our new toys 🙂 Have a nice weekend
  7. ps....nice to know that Tracking will work ok on the beach...will definetely try that, (but will also check if there's any risk of cancelling staff when using it), thanks
  8. Oh...if that's the case, it could explain my frustration (and will also correlate with the manual)... maybe I had missunderstood some posts from the other sources and got it backwards indeed...thanks! So...if wanna give a little depth boost for fringe deep targets (especially for high conductors like silver coins) => put GB in a slightly lower value (this is "negative GB offset" & ground noise will increase when raising the coil of the ground). Exactly like Kac was experiencing with his AT Pro as mentioned above, and as I also remember experiencing with my Deus....slightly lower (negative) for a slight depth increase and boost in fringe depth targets. Based on this, and to end the confusion, the guy in the "DetectorComparisons" video who raised the GB value while in salt water (positive offset) instead of lowering it, wasn't doing it to gain some extra depth... but to somehow help the gold chain's signal stand out better. Now, how this "positive offset" while in salt water helps with low conductors, I can only assume that a slightly higher GB (positive offset) while in salt, allows to include some salt signal back in (instead of completely cancelling it), which helps detecting very week gold signals since tiny gold signals from chains, earrings etc are really close/embeded to the salt's range itself...if that's the case, seems interesting enough. Thank you both
  9. Thanks Kac & Rick Yes, I quited overthinking about it since I don't see further interest in this thread... Was just this Kruzer's salt water-gold chain test video which made me curious to search about it, and wanted to understand why he increased his ground balance value. Based on your replies and some further reading from multiple resources, I thought I've grabed the basics of the GB offset...Most seems to conclude that: - negative offset (lower value than actual ground phase) means slight increase in noise as the coil approaches the ground => some extra depth abilities but more ground noise...... - positive offset (higher value than actual ground phase) means slight increase in noise as the coil is lifted off the ground => less ground noise while sweeping so tiny signals would standout more.... Is just that the Kruzer's manual statement on "positive vs negative" confused me... manual states that "if the sound gets higher when lowering the search coil to the ground, the ground balance value is too high, in other words, the effect from the ground is positive"... which is the exact opposite from what I've read and wrote above...I expected this do be the "negative" offset instead. Anyway, I'll wait till I have my new M.Kruzer in my hands to do some real testing with it, but in any case it seems that it isn't something to overthink about. Thank you all for participating...I guess that this Covid & Quarantine situation leaves me with enough free time to overthink about things...not good!!! ðŸĪŠ
  10. Based on all the above info, and in order to conclude: - slightly negative GB offset => slight increase in noise as the coil approaches the ground => machine runs hotter => more depth in bad hot soils - slightly positive GB offset => slight increase in noise as the coil is lifted off the ground => machine more quiet/steady => increased detectability of smaller low conductors Makes sense? Lastly, Multi Kruzer's manual states that: "If the sound gets higher when lifting off the search coil above the ground, the ground balance value is too low, in other words, the effect from the ground is negative and the ground balance value needs to be increased by using the ( + ) button. On the other hand, if the sound gets higher when lowering the search coil to the ground, the ground balance value is too high, in other words, the effect from the ground is positive and the ground balance value needs to decreased by using the ( - ) button." So based on the manual, it seems to me that for the Kruzer everything is vice-versa??? negative is above ground phase & positive is below ground phase? pfff....I thought that I almost got it but it's way more complicated for my head right now... ðŸĪŠ gonna grab a beer and call it solved!
  11. I will also add some interesting comments via other sources (DD forum) regarding the same subject, that I just found and may solve the Ground Balance offset mistery: From Keith Southern: "I adjust my ground balance negative in disc mode till I get some ground noise feed back then set it back up slightly till it just barely makes noise....this helps when running it in disc mode to obtain more depth.... Do a simple test in your yard...bury a target to the fring depth so you just cant hear it on your machine when properly ground balanced.....say a dime at 9 - 10 inches..then turn you ground bal back CCW till you get some ground noise coming in on a sweep or even a coil bob...the go back a tad CW till it gets rid of the ground noise...do this in disc mode not all metal mode.... Now go across the dime and there should be a marked increase in the ability to all of a sudden hear it... now this works best with a DD coil especially of the elliptical type in the 5x10 range up to say a f75 size 7x11... The Elliptical DD's see less ground and allow for more negative ground bal than a concentric...yet still have excellent depth ... Now the target's when heard will sound a little different than what you are accustom to maybe...what happens is when you get a signal it opens the gate and allows the ground noise to come in at the same time of the target so if you are running 2 tone you will hear more of say a iron buzz on the edges of the target.. on the approach and the departure..get used to it.. you might think it's deep iron to begin with ..There is other techniques also for hunting bad dirt maybe I will list one in another thread.. Keith" Further comments in the same thread: "Negative offset for minerals/bad dirt/depth - positive offset for smaller low conductors.....old school stuff that still has merit" "This is an old rule of thumb in detecting circles. By balancing the machine slightly "hot", meaning a slight increase in threshold as the coil approaches the ground during ground balancing, some believe it will give you a bit more depth. A filter is set up in conventional ground balancing to ignore the ground signal (filter it out) and sound off to anything that goes above that filter. By balancing with the ground signal almost breaking through (slight increase in threshold as the coil approaches the ground during balancing) you can push the ground signal right to the edge of the filter and so a target is more readily able to trip over the edge of that filter and sound off. Now, there is a fine line here. Too "hot" of a balance and now the machine will false too much, and so you might ignore or miss a real deep coin as being ground chatter." ***All comments above are from this source for anyone that needs further reading (and I hope that it's allowed to post here): http://www.dankowskidetectors.com/discussions/read.php?2,33662,33674
  12. Truth is that I wouldn't even remember this Ground Balance Offset thing if I hadn't watch the formentioned video...but as I was seeking for Multi Kruzer reviews, the video that I posted earlier with this positive GB Offset trick in the salt water grabed my attention, so I brought it on the table for further discussion and explanations. I would also suggest to watch another video (attached below) where the same guy (!!!) shows what happens in salt water when he doesn't ground balance his ATX for salt, vs what happens when he does ground balance it to substract the salt signal...result is he looses detectability!....I guess that this video is also very much correlated to the subject....but not 100% sure since it's for a completely different machine (pulse induction). However, I'll copy a Steve's comment from the same thread which includes the ATX video: "...in very low mineral ground savvy VLF operators can sometimes gain depth by purposefully offsetting the ground balance control. If the ground is not signaling over a wide range when you change the setting, is it better to set lower or higher? It depends on the targets sought and knowing how your machine performs inside and out." original thread below: Food for thought!
  13. I know that for many old timers, GB offset (positive/negative) was a common practice from what I've read so far... my experience is really limited but I do recall different results when messing with the ground phase value with some of my previously owned machines in difficult targets (like the 9'' dime detectability in hot ground as stated in my first post). Anyway, thank you all for you answers & comments. It's not a very popular subject but would be good to know the theory behind Ground Balance Offseting...at least the basics of it. As I understand it, is like fooling the machine (via positive/negative GB offset) to believe that the ground is hotter/milder than what the actual ground phase is telling... For very deep targets or tiny low conductors that may blend with the surrounding ground due to their depth or their low conductivity, this minor GB tweeking maybe is just a little trick to make those target signals stand out more against the ground signals... but really don't know how and if that works. All I know is that, since I'm expecting my multi kruzer soon, it would be nice to be able to understand on my own the reason behing GB tweeking, like the one shown in the attached video where the guy set a slight positive (higher) GB offset in his Multi Kruzer while in salt water to detect the gold chain.
  14. That's exactly the effect I remember having with my old XP Deus when using GB manual offset from the real ground phase. Setting a little higher from the actual ground phase (eg from 70 to 75 as in my example for the Kruzer) was causing less noise but a 9'' silver dime had much more difficulties to be detected. Instead, when setting the GB a little lower than actual ground phase (eg from 70 to 65 as in my example for the kruzer) the 9'' Dime would become crystal clear and strong, but I had a little more ground noise and sound spikes... So, taking into account the first part of your answer, Multi Kruzer would behave the same (correlating with my experience as described above with the Deus)...meaning that, a GB offset higher than actual ground phase => less noise but less depth....and a GB offset lower than actual ground phase => more noise but increased sensitivity/detectability. Based on that, the guy in the video who was trying to hear a gold chain while in salt water, Raised his Multi Kruzer's GB value a little higher than the actual (from 0 to 7 as you will see) in order to have a less noisy machine, and not to run the machine hotter & increase its sensitivity to the gold chain...right? *I'm attaching the video for reference.....watch at 3:10 when he says "I'm gonna put the GB slightly positive like I also did with the Makro Impact" Thanks for the answer PimentoUk 🙂
  15. Hey guys, Can someone explain to me in simple terms what is it and what we accomplish by using a slight ground balance offset (either positive or negative) on our machines? I remember for example that when using an Xp Deus in the past, whenever I needed some little extra depth boost I was manually set the GB a little lower than the actual ground phase of my area but in the expense of greater ground noise and instability...the opposite when I needed a more quiet run....However I never deep dived into this concept and never understood how and why this really worked. Would be great to understand this now, and in order to help me (and because each machine has a different GB scale), let's assume a Ground Balance scale of a Makro Multi Kruzer (which I'm expecting soon). So...In a Makro M. Kruzer, let's say that machine grabs (via pumping) a Ground Phase of 70 in our area... 1) What if I manually set my GB slightly HIGHER than 70 (eg at 75) regarding ground noise, depth abilities and targets detection? Will the effects be the same for both low & high conductors or tiny & large targets? 2) Same as above, what if I manually set my GB slightly LOWER than 70 (eg at 65) regarding ground noise, depth abilities and targets detection? Will the effects be the same for both low & high conductors or tiny & large targets? 3) Will this GB offset apply also in the salt water the same way? (I recently whatched a guy reviewing and using a Multi kruzer in the salt water, and he manually increased his GB value on purpose while he was trying to detect a small gold chain underwater...never understood why he did such a thing and how this works) 4) Lastly, please define which side is "positive GB offset" and which side is "negative GB offset" in Makro machines..... May sound obvious but, in some machines higher GB Phase means hotter ground but in some other machines higher GB Phase means milder ground (the opposite). So to tell me that "a Positive offset means moving the GB value to the hotter side of scale & the effects wil be that..." may mean nothing if I don't know which side is hot and which side is mild...hope that makes sense. I don't have a clue which side is hot & which is mild in Makro GB Scales so would be nice to enlighten me and correlate your answers with this! Hope my questions makes sense... Regards, Argyris
×
×
  • Create New...