UT Dave

11 hours ago, Digalicious said:

Thanks for the explanation.

The opacity of TT's dots is based on the signal strength. So, to be clear, when you say "granular", you're referring to opacity. Correct? 

Let's say that 76 ID is a penny with no ferrous co-mingling going on. Why would that 76 penny show on the ferrous axis?

 

No, I used the word granular in regards to how incredibly adjustable the Manticore ferrous limits are.  To a really granular level.  And they are graphically displayed on the TT and the relationship of a signal to those limits is evident on the TT but almost completely missing with just the ID number.

A clean copper penny with a 76 ID and with no co-mingling, ground and depth not withstanding, I would fully expect to land solidly on the non ferrous line.

There's not just one 76 though.  There is a whole range of 76's from the top of the upper ferrrous limits, down through the non-ferrous line to the bottom of the lower ferrous limits.  The ID only shows two of them, ferrous or non-ferrous.  There are two types of ferrous on the Manticore though and the TT shows which, or sometimes both, an ID is landing in.  The ID only shows it's one of the two types of ferrous - if, the signal lands in your ferrous limits.  Or TT shows if it's reporting a non-ferrous ID that is actually not on the non-ferrous line but between it and the upper or lower ferrous limits. 

It's just information, clues, whatever you want to call it that the ID, by itself, does not provide.  It's what the audio is also reporting.  But in a format that is easier to understand and especially easier to interpret how cross checks compare.  No magic.  But not what you keep saying it is as just a singular plot of a singular ID, either.  That's not how the Manticore works.  Might be helpful to think of TT as  providing a graphic representation of the FE number to go along with the CO number.  I'm finding TT to be a pretty darn good iron probability indicator.  Or a corroded copper or brass indicator.  Or a non coin shaped, coin sized indicator.

- Dave

9 hours ago, Digalicious said:

...a point I made earlier about TT actually showing less information than ID. For example, a target shows an ID of 76, so TT shows a dot on the nonferrous axis somewhere around the 76 range. In other words, TT is vague and ID is concise...it could be argued that TT is showing less accurate information than ID, because ID is assigning actual numbers. 

That's ignoring the second axis of TT.  Which the ID's give no indication of until fully ferrous.  A 76 may very well NOT land on the non ferrous axis.  It may plot above or below it, but still outside the ferrous limits that have been set.  A clue the ID does not provide.

Seeing where IDs land in relation to the very granular ferrous limits provided by the Manticore on TT and how they trend, up or down, left to right on successive interrogation passes, you see visual patterns and the reoccurrence of them starts to help quite a bit.  In my opinion.

TT combines audio and IDs.  Audio is quite subjective.  TT shows you what your settings on the machines filters have processed the signal to.  For myself, my hearing is poor.  I can't hear a Garrett Carrot for example - can't hear it at all.

There are obviously clues in the TT that can't be provided by the ID's alone.  Why that escapes you I don't know. 

- Dave

And, you can see two or three tight passes from different directions and the differences between them all at once.  As well as iron probability.  The diagonal direction of the smears have some meaning and I'm finding it easier to interpret that on the graph than with my ears.

For me, ID's on interrogation passes do indeed convey some clues as to size, shape, density.  But the TT makes it easier for me to process all that information.

I wasn't too enthusiastic about TT before I got it.  But I really like it now that I've used it a lot.

- Dave

To add to the "turned on when not meant to" theme.  I've found the power button almost too easy to engage.  More than a couple of times, my 105's have managed to turn themselves on while bouncing around in the back of my Jeep, while inside the provided case.  

Almost too common, that I've taken them out of the case to find them already powered on.  

Way too bloody hot to use the dang things right now anyway though.  Sure wish there was an elegant ear bud solution.  I'm learning to live with the speaker - and, it's fine, really.  Just hate to use it in public parks.  

- Dave

That you can't save custom discrimination patterns just irritates me.  The interface is all there.  It's a deliberate hold back of a feature.  And it irritates me.

Get to save one, by tying up a search mode as a favorite.  Lame.

- Dave

I had pretty low expectations for the Manticore, I think, compared to much of what I was reading from others before it shipped.  I expected zero depth gain over the 800.  Wasn't expecting more stable ID's (but wasn't expecting worse).  Was hoping (not expecting) noticeably improved EMI handling, that's the main reason I bought it and the Manticore has delivered on that and it's enough for me to call myself satisfied.

It is deeper in certain conditions, the salt beach particularly.

I use and like the target trace more than I though I would - I actually didn't care about it at all, pre-purchase.  But I do use it now and do like it.

It's all around nicer and better handling.

I just wasn't expecting to be "wowed" or expecting anything like a "game changer".  So the fact I'm not wowed and it's not a game changer didn't cause disappointment.

So, yeah, satisfied.  Didn't like the update though.  Can't see myself using the big red numbers or the stabilizer, but even with those turned off I didn't like the overall effect on the machine.  Rolled back and am happy with it again.

- Dave

Target ID's on deeper targets got noticeably worse, in my dirt.  Silver coins reporting as iron.

But, I had gotten used to the jumpy ID's and they don't bother me anymore.  For me, my targets and dirt, the big ID spread isn't across the whole range, either.  It's mostly limited to the US copper Memorial/clad dime range.  I can't reliably call a copper penny from a clad dime.  But below that, I can call a zinc.  Zincs are bouncy too, but they always have been with their range of corrosion - but they rarely cross into copper penny ID's.  Above clad dime, clad quarters are pretty solid and not too jumpy, typically not more than two numbers.  Going down to Jefferson nickels, the Manticore is rock solid for me, usually a single number.  Though that number isn't the same in all modes in all soil conditions.  But I can call nickels vs square tabs very, very well with the Manticore.

So, I dig copper penny/clad dime signals always, everywhere, anyway.  So have gotten to where I'm not bothered by the jumpy ID's in that range.

Silver, I don't find enough of it consistently, to be really claiming I can call it, but I have found about 15 silver coins and closer to 20 .925 items with the Manticore so far and they have been pretty solid ID's, relative to depth.

The other complaint I have heard most often is iron falseing.  And yes, I have experienced that with the Manticore since day one.  But, it's not any worse than I was used to with the Nox and I am not often fooled by it.  So, that has never bothered me.

I guess, the two big complaints, aren't ones that I have cared much about.  And it seems in my soil, the first stab at a cure is worse than the disease?

- Dave

2 hours ago, abenson said:

After going back to the previous software version on the Manticore, doing some testing and then updating to the most recent version, I apparently had a bad update the first go around. Because now the most recent download is much better than the first one I tried.

However, I'm still seeing some weird stuff with the update and one of them is depth issues in my soil. It's not as bad as the first try, but it's still very apparent to me after hours of testing. 

 

Very helpful.  Thanks Andrew!

What you were describing on your first update, was worse than what I was seeing.  But what you show in the video, after your second round, is exactly what I was seeing.  I'm back on the old version and liking it better too.  In ten hours of turf hunting on the update I didn't dig anything deeper than 4-1/2".  In two hours after rolling back I dug several coppers between 5 and 8-1/2".  I don't believe that is coincidence.  And, I didn't like the change in the audio with the update.   Even with stabilizer and filter turned off, the audio was not the same and I didn't like the change.  I could have adjusted to that but the feeling I was losing real depth is why I switched back and I'm satisfied in my own mind that it wasn't just my imagination or cognitive bias.

- Dave

38 minutes ago, phrunt said:

Have you just considered doing a factory reset to see if it changes it back?

I bet that would probably work.  Sounds too easy though 😂.

Besides, reinstalling the update let me try it on my difficult dime again, then rollback and try it again.  My machine hits that particular target better with the old version.  I don't know that I'm seeing the same, or as much of an issue as @abenson but I think I'm seeing some of it.

At some point I'll reinstall the update and do more testing.  But for now, I'm more confident and comfortable with the old version.

- Dave

Yes, looking at mine right now, 5.12.0-3.4.0 is what is installed now after rolling back.  I'm not really bothered by the red numbers but don't really like them either.  So I'm reinstalling the update to turn them off and then rolling back again 😂.

I'll double check that I have both the Stabilizer and Stabilizer filter turned off for all modes while I'm at it.  The filter isn't supposed to be active with the Stabilizer turned off, but, I thought the Stabilizer was supposed to default to Off, too, and it wasn't.

- Dave

54 minutes ago, abenson said:

That's weird because my numbers are not red. They have the red underline just like before. As far as I can tell it performs just like the old version. Hopefully I will have a chance to do more testing tonight.

I bet you had the red numbers turned off, on the update, before rolling back?  I had them turned on and didn't think about turning them off before rolling back.

What I'm guessing, is the red numbers feature was already there before the update, just toggled off and not visible.  The update toggled the feature on.  Turning the red numbers on, gets stored in a config file or user xml or settings table or something like that.  The setting was either "off" before the update or not written.  Using the feature on the update wrote the setting and now the machine is still reading the setting and showing the feature, but without the menu item to turn it off.

An abundance of paranoia, might lead one to make sure and turn the Stabilizer off on all the search modes before rolling back.

- Dave

50 minutes ago, TampaBayBrad said:

I think I remember reading a thread quite some time ago here about a guy's Manticore video on Youtube having red ID #'s.

Someone commented that he must be running a different software version than the rest of us because his #'s were red.

This was a ways back like maybe March or April.

I remember reading that.  I think I remember reading he had a crosshair on his target trace too.

- Dave

So after about ten hours of hunting on the update, I just rolled mine back, for a couple of reasons.  

Just now went out and tried the dime target that was giving me trouble and it - to me - is clearly hitting it better than with the update.

But, another observation, is that this is NOT the previous version, either.  Because, ferrous numbers are now red, as with the update, but there isn't a setting to turn that off anymore either.

So, can used the updater to revert to an older version, but it's not necessarily the same version you had before the update.  It certainly seems not to be on mine.

- Dave

19 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

People sometimes get chastised for not updating to the latest software but it's these kind of inexcusable oversights (again, if that's what we are actually seeing) that makes some of us wary. 

All of the most update averse people I know are software engineers.

- Dave

I'll feel that price in the shanks and resent it.  But, I need the M8, and so, I'll take it in the shanks and be unhappy about it.

I wanted the M15.  But not at that price.

I bet they not only don't come with lower shafts, but I bet lower shafts aren't even available with the coils.  I'm getting the Minelab Mindset.

- Dave

TLDR:  Inconsistent enough to be inconclusive.  But I think I'm probably not having depth issues.  Probably...

In my backyard.  A silver Rosie I buried 7" deep, in 2007.  It has migrated North about 4" from where I buried it.  There's a tree nearby that wasn't there when I buried the dime and I suspect the tree roots have moved the dime.  Whether it got any deeper, shallower, tilted, no idea.  But it has moved.  Another silver Rosie two feet away, buried 5" deep hasn't moved.

Manticore with the update and a Nox 800 on the latest update, both 11" coils.  Only one machine at a time turned on.  Both noise cancelled, then ground balanced, and re-ground balanced at every search mode change.  The Manticore got noise cancelled a few more times when got a tad noisy switching modes.  Ran sensitivity on both machines as high as they would go and remain quiet/stable and that was 26 - 27 on the Manticore and 24 on the 800.

Both machines all tones.  Recovery 4 on the Manticore and 2 on the 800.

Edit to add:  Default ferrous limits on Manticore except in ATG where I have lower opened up completely and upper at a flat 3 (that's my go to mode and I didn't feel like changing my regular Ferrous limits on it...).  FE2=2 on the 800.

First go with the Manticore.  I left the Stabilizer at 4, as it came out of the box with the update (ML video says default is off, but it's not).  Started with ATHC but all the AT modes were similar.  Could get "a signal" on every sweep, but it was not a good sounding signal.  Iron grunts mixed in with numbers mostly in the 50's but swinging from high 40's to high 90's.  Just not a dig me signal to my ears - I would not have stopped for it on a wild hunt.  Turning on default disc made it more broken up and worse.  It jumped all over the 5" dime though.  Goldfield gave strong signals but was ringing mostly 50's.  I probably wouldn't dig it on a turf coin hunt but most other types of hunts I would.

Tried the 800.  Only used P1, didn't have to try anything else.  It gave a good signal that I'd dig.  Little faint, little jumpy, but hitting in the sweet range and sounded pretty good to me and combined with the depth, I'll stop and dig that.

Went back to the Manticore.  Just swept it over the 7" dime, just to see, before changing the Stabilizer to 0 to see what difference that would make.  Dang Manticore was hitting pretty good on the dime this time?  Just turned it on, no change of any settings (it was in ATHC).  Just minutes earlier it was really struggling on that dime.  But now it was gave a signal that would cause me to investigate.  A soft but distinct beep in the high 60's on first sweep and circling it could get a pretty good 70-80's from one direction, with a pegged depth meter.  Still a few random iron grunts in AM, but this time it actually sounded better with default disc on.  I'd  dig that.  I still think the 800 hit on it a bit better though?  Turned off the Stabilizer, went back and forth off and on a few times - it sounds better on that dime with the Stabilizer turned off, for sure.

Edit to add:  The Manticore AT modes were all quite similar, but, ATHC did in fact provide the best signal on the 7" dime.  On the first go round with it, I wouldn't have stopped for any of them though.

I'll have to play with the Stabilizer in real iron, but seems like for a typical turf hunt for me, it's better left off.

And so that is so inconsistent, I'm not going to draw a conclusion.  I don't "think" I'm having depth issues.  Because the Manticore did hit on the dime.  But, then again, I do "think" the 800 hit on it better?  And there was that first try, where the Manticore just whiffed.

Sorry I'm not contributing any clarification here.

- Dave

I live pretty close to @abenson (I've run into him detecting a couple of times).  In a few hours I'll give my Manticore with the update a compare to my Nox 800 in my test garden which is likely very similar dirt to his.

- Dave

I'm not seeing any way to go back to the previous version either.

Not sure if I'm seeing any depth issues, but I might be.  I only got out for two hours last night with the new version and didn't get any good, deep signals and dug nothing deep.  On the way home, I was thinking that was kind of weird and wondering why there wasn't anything deeper at that school.  Was not thinking anything about the machine, just the site.  But, hmmm...

I have a 15+ year old coin garden in the back yard I can do some verification with this afternoon.  I'll report back.

- Dave

I'm not buying the "high demand" excuse.  Just, not, buying it.  It's not like they can come out and say "we just don't care" though, either.  But, that's what I'm hearing, when they say "high demand".

- Dave

I was already on the road and detecting when I "heard it here first" on the update.  Got home a couple hours ago and have only just installed the update.  Two thumbs up for the update install process though.  Went off without a hitch.  I've seen enough botched update installs of all sorts, and it's kind of the business I am in, I appreciate a silky smooth update.

- Dave

I'd expect any new break through in technology to come from the military and commercial world and eventually trickle down to recreational.  Just not enough money in recreational to motivate the R&D.

- Dave

Another Manticore nickel from yesterday, 1884 V.  Gave a solid two way 25 amongst the iron in ATG one region all tones.

- Dave

18 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

For those of you who may not think or believe that Minelab cares about their customers or that they pay attention to these forums, I had a very nice, lengthy phone call from one of the Equinox 700/900 design engineers tonight (4/28) in order to talk about the experiences I was having with the Equinox 900 that I own.  

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this topic and who kept it real, no nonsense and as factual as possible. Minelab does care about the experiences we are having especially with new models and also when they are reported in a level headed way.

For you GPX 6000 owners, I did give the gentleman that called me a huge thanks for the speaker/audio/EMI mod and I gave him and Minelab a special request for a small DD coil for the GPX 6000. Maybe it will happen.

later,

Jeff

Nice to see them talking to someone respectful and respected.  Instead of the youtube influencer types.

Wish you would have told them the Manticore guys are really hurting for the M8 coil though 😁.

- Dave

I don't watch many detecting vids at all, but I do watch Loren's.  And Abenson, and Rattlehead's too.  That's pretty much it.

I'm seeing just the same for EMI.  I was going to do that static test last week, but didn't because of rain.  Now I don't need to bother 😂.  But really, just using the Manticore in EMI riddled parks I'm familiar with using the Nox, it's very obvious the Manticore handles EMI better.

I do have a nit picky disagreement with Loren's overall assessment though.  For me, in parks - not a lot of iron my parks, but a lot of non ferrous trash, the Manticore absolutely is a turn it on and go machine.  Doing nothing but noise cancel, GB and adjust sensitivity, leaving ferrous limits and disc at defaults, it's tearing up the silver and clad in the trashy parks for me with very little learning curve.  Mostly just adjusting to the new VDI scheme.  It LOVES nickels, too.  I got in a 90 minute park hunt this afternoon and once again half my total coins were nickels and the only square tabs I dug I was expecting them to be square tabs.

- Dave

I faked a find a couple of months ago.  For a few hours anyway.  Dug what I thought was a Peace dollar at the beach.  Even showed to another forum member who was detecting there and told him I'd found a silver dollar.  Now, it was pretty encrusted, so it was larger than "life size" and details weren't really visible.  But I went around telling myself I'd found silver dollar for a few hours before I got home and started cleaning it up and realized it was a Walker half and not a dollar at all 😂.

- Dave