GhostMiner

6 hours ago, Mike_Hillis said:

This is a very informative and addicting story.     Its almost like a primer for placer mining.   Thank you for sharing it with us.

Good luck with your highgraders.   You'll  need to get identifiable pictures to prosecute, so you'll have to get clever with your cameras.  They won't quit until it costs too much in sweat or in personal injury.   

HH
Mike  

 

   Thanks. We got them handled. They won't be high grading us again. My younger partners had there way and it got ugly LOL. 

1 minute ago, Gerry in Idaho said:

I've known Gary for at least 15 yrs. and have detected beaches with him.  Yes he's a King on the beach in FL.  He's getting better at hunting Relics.  He would not be the guy to get for hunting gold nuggets as we use different detectors.

 

I had a chance to work with Fred Dodge a yr ago on one of our claims. They were on our mining website and called me. I didn't do it. 

6 minutes ago, GhostMiner said:

   Does anyone out there watch the cable show Oak Island? If so, I am always fascinated by their metal detecting guy Gary Drayton. It's probably the only reason I still watch the show as he is the only one finding anything. I know nothing about detecting but what would you experts here have to say about him and his techniques? Is he as good as they make him out to be? 

Uh Oh. That bad?

   Does anyone out there watch the cable show Oak Island? If so, I am always fascinated by their metal detecting guy Gary Drayton. It's probably the only reason I still watch the show as he is the only one finding anything. I know nothing about detecting but what would you experts here have to say about him and his techniques? Is he as good as they make him out to be? 

5 hours ago, rvpopeye said:

Stick around GM we're on your side !  😏  Nobody's pickin' on ya,,,,,well , yet anyway. 

Besides now we're all wantin' ta hear more of that Story about a man named Jed  !

Ya didn't even get to the Ellie May part yet........😜

(I have a feeling you will have some of the crew here camping out up there when it warms up after reading that Log Book ?...)  

Sorry - I had a bad morning. Apologies to Steve. 

12 minutes ago, GotAU? said:

That’s what I thought too, and reading some of the old stories and such people who mined someone else’s claim were high graders, a label used as a noun.  A lot of people use “claim jumpers” though, it’s gonna be hard to correct them all!

Claim jumper just sounds so "OLD WEST" LOL.

18 minutes ago, Clay Diggins said:

Claim Jumping is the act of challenging another locator's prior mineral rights by overclaiming them and challenging their paperwork in court. Claim jumping is traditionally heavily frowned upon by the courts.

Higrading or High Grading is the act of taking minerals from a mineral property without the permission of the owners. Higrading is a problem in virtually all operating mines and it's rampant in small placer operations. Although higrading also applies to uninvited prospectors most convictions are of employees who were caught higrading gold or gemstone operations.

Higrading is theft of minerals. Claim jumping doesn't involve theft of minerals but instead is an attempt to invalidate another's right to the minerals. In essence Claim Jumping is the attempted theft of mineral title.

Here's the most common legal definition of "Claim Jumping":

The location on ground, knowing it to be excess ground, within the staked boundaries of another claim initiated prior thereto, because law governing manner of making location had not been complied with, so that location covers the workings of the prior locators, is what in mining circles is known as “claim jumping.”

https://cite.case.law/nev/42/302/

There used to be a lot of problems with unsavory characters trying to steal claims with paperwork schemes. Some people still try it today to intimidate but they aren't going to be successful in court. The courts really shut all that down years ago. I think that and movies are reason the term "Claim jumping" is so misunderstood today.

 

Thanks Clay. I guess that I misused the term as many do but you clarified it. High Grading would be the appropriate term for me to use on what was happening. We have people taking turns watching the claim for now. We also may have identified the suspect. He will get a good talking to. 

35 minutes ago, Gerry in Idaho said:

You being on this forum with your claims and knowledge of mining could be a win win for a group of people.

If you are serious about getting some experienced nugget hunters on your ground, I recommend you have a predetermined amount of people sign up.  Try to get both experienced PI/ZED and VLF users so you have all aspects of detectable gold covered.  Try to make it at least a 2 day event since you have so much ground.

I know for a fact I have helped claim owners in the past by showing them where I was finding gold with my detectors.  I've even had my photos used to help sell claims.

This could be a fun eventful trip for a lucky few folks.

As for as size and depth of pickers, the VLF detectors can find some really small pickers in bedrock, but depth is lacking.  1/10 grain less than an inch and 1/10 of a gram 2 to 3", 1 gram 4 to 8" is possible.

With big detectors, we have found solid nuggets of 2 gram near 18" and bigger gold down over 3 feet.

Very interesting. We have a number of dumps where the old long toms deposited all the rejects. The old timers lost a lot of gold with the wooden boxes. Might be interesting to have a 2 day event. Maybe i'd catch the detecting bug. 

2 hours ago, aufarmer said:

I own 8.  Some of them are now 3 or 4 deep in being over filed on.  Used to stress over it but have pretty much given up on dealing with it.  Tired of spending all my time reclaiming other peoples holes to stay out of trouble with the BLM, and now with the BLM on a mission to save the sage grouse (and being in prime sage grouse habitat) it probably won’t matter in a few years anyways.

It's the yellow bellied mountain frog in northern Cal. If you have them in a creek you have a problem. They must be protected. The BLM will accept any filing. However, it has to go through adjudication which can take a year or more. That's where a top filing should be caught. 

1 hour ago, Gerry in Idaho said:

That's mighty kind of you GhostMiner and I just might do that down the road.  My goal for 2022 is to find Gold with a detector in California and Colorado.

I know nothing about detecting for gold LOL. It would be great to get a group of experienced people out there and see what they find. How deep can you detect a picker? I've got many tons of hand stacked rock that are probably full of them.

5 minutes ago, Gerry in Idaho said:

I've always associated the 2 as the same, but I would assume (that's scary at times...assuming) they technically have different meanings.

I too have been informed I was Claim Jumping and it was when I had a detector in hand.  I was able to help the guy with my knowledge of previous discovered gold from many years ago when it was not claimed.  In hind site, I guess I could have claimed it up?

Being a dealer who offers Field Training, I used to have all kinds of areas to detect and train on.  I even had a couple permissions on claims for a few years.  Then when gold prices started breaking over $1000 many of my permissions were taken away.  Some, because of others who actually Claim Jumped and were caught.  A few because the new claim owners felt their claim had serious nugget potential and I could be a threat.  It's really hard to get permission for a group anymore so that's why I stick with Rye Patch for most of the Training.  

Some folks say I should claim an area just to do my Field Training.  I guess I could, but since so many people know me, anything with my name on it would certainly draw attention.  I could be sneaky... my thought is to claim a really good gold area I know of that has more trash than I prefer or care to deal with or hunt.  After some time I'm hoping the majority of folks will get all the surface trash clean up and removed for me.  I can then go in and get all the deep gold most folks seem to miss.

As Steve had mentioned earlier, the majority of folks swinging a gold detector are not much of a threat.  I think it's kind of funny, but true.

 

Come to our claims. I have 520 acres of them. It's mostly leased but I retain prospector rights on the leases. Bring your crew & just give me 25% of what you find.

5 minutes ago, GotAU? said:

Question: Is it Claim Jumpers or High Graders, and what’s the difference? Seems like the terms have been reversed from what they historically used to be.

It's claim jumpers that are high grading gravels. 

6 minutes ago, Cascade Steven said:

I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts, insight and input on this subject.  Practical experience is a wonderful teacher and we each have a different set of experiences to share and from which to learn.  GM thank you for your detailed description.  It will be useful to many readers now and future readers who come to this site.

That's all I meant to do. Thanks. It is all info I learned over many yrs and hoping to help others avoid costly mistakes.

1 minute ago, jasong said:

I ran into that one too. Doing a NOI level operation you are allowed 1000 tons of disturbed or processed "ore" or similar verbiage. So I calculated based on that, and it was fine. Another BLM office decided the 1000 yards is any disturbed ground including road, and my road alone would have made it infeasible to do a NOI level and they required a full POO to be submitted. Yet in the same state I saw them allow another operation to disturb many times more than 1000 tons of ground total, including roads, and that very same office said nothing...

Their opinions and facts often change based on what they had for breakfast, it seems anyways.

Where we are at they won't let us do anything involving heavy equipment without a POO. They coctantly invent their own rules as well.

-

19 minutes ago, Swegin said:

I will say that those are two good looking pans.  How much material was processed for those pans?

 

Its the same pan cleaned up. This is near Jed's dig site and very high grade. 

6 minutes ago, jasong said:

Since the BLM and sheriffs have shirked their law enforcement responsibilities regarding mineral trespass, and to be clear, mineral trespass is a criminal infraction (up to a felony depending on the law) which can and should be enforced - it's up to a claim owner to pursue civil litigation. A time consuming and costly process since law enforcement has failed miners in this respect. 

One should be very aware that in civil litigation you not only need to prove who the party is, but also the quantity of damages they caused. 

In other words, you can file a suit, prove there was a trespass, prove it was X person. And it won't mean anything in civil litigation if you can't prove what they took and what your compensation should be. So, it's not good enough just to get their picture, you need to document proof of exactly what they took and any other damages they caused.

As mentioned by others, this is why people hire caretakers or just monitor their claims in person daily. Document any claim jumpers in the process, not just for ID but also to show what damages have occurred. 

It's also another in a long list of reasons why recreationalists shouldn't file mining claims, an instrument which Congress and the law intends specifically for commercial usage only.

Agree. We are commercial & will resolve the issue. My beef is with the Sheriffs Dept. I am supposed to identify and take stolen property from thieves which should be their job. I can see it now - walking up to a claim jumper with a notepad and asking for his name and address and how much gold did he steel LOL.

1 minute ago, Steve Herschbach said:

And I said I appreciated your answer. No need to get all sensitive about it.

Just taking time to explain things to those who don't have any info on this subject. I didn't see anyone else doing that. 

1 minute ago, Steve Herschbach said:

 

There are more people here who own claims and know about them than you seem to think. But I appreciate your thoughtful and in-depth answer.

Still sitting on nine in Alaska. Just got the annual lease payment in fact. Claims are a pain in the posterior sometimes, but I made a lot of money, and great memories, with mining claims, so can't complain.

   I never said I thought there were people here who didn't own claims. My post gave insight as to what I think are valid reasons to either own a claim or not. I posted information which is sorely lacking on this topic. I did it to help others, not be a know it all. If my thoughts are not welcome I will leave.

   MAY 13   1836

   Today I worked the gravels in a U pattern starting at my new hole and going east into the fault and slowly turning south back towards the kettle. Fractured rock is abundant but I haven't seen a sign of country yet. I've panned some of the dig to test and there is a lack of much color. Somehow I have run completely out of the pay area. There were no good gravels to take down to the tom and this is the first day here with no gold.

   My theory is to go deeper into the fault and lower the excavation to find country. This will require the most effort i've had to put in since I started. I am convinced there must be a vast amount of gold still trapped in the channel in this area near the played out kettle. The old river must have brought more gold near it. If I can find another pot hole or an area of raised country rock it may prove rich in gold and we will be high on the hog once again. John is a bit discouraged but I am keeping his spirits up and saying look at what we have accomplished so far and surely we will find more.

  TO BE CONTINUED ......................

7 minutes ago, Gerry in Idaho said:

GhostMiner,  I appreciate your knowledge, writing skills and answering the question of owning a claim.  You and your team sound like pretty fair, hard working and honest folks.  Just to be clean, I had and or have no intention of trying to smear your issue at all.  I have very good friends who own claims and we have stopped counting how many times we've ran into Claim Jumpers.  Even one guy with an AR-15 strapped to his back (I have pics to prove it), but no need to show the world.

It seems so frustrating for those who try to do the right thing and then find out someone else already filed (as mentioned above).  It also is a business operation to some folks as you mentioned and I know from guys who are in the business.  Then there is the family owned claims for weekend recreation and each has their +/-.

Thanks for adding your input and I am especially glad to see your group allows panning/detecting as the majority of folks doing that couldn't remove enough gold from the site to pay their gas to get there.  That certainly shows true character and realizing most folks are just out on weekends trying to have fun.

Well said.

Thank you Gerry. I never took any offense & welcome the opportunity to post on this issue. I just posted one of the bad stories we ran into. I suppose the mining business is no different than any other, there are good & bad people. I try to treat everyone as I would want to be treated. I remember being green and learning lessons the hard way at times. Cheers.

   Here is one story on what can happen when you buy a claim without doing your homework. A few yrs ago our company made a deal with a guy who had purchased a mining claim from a geologist. The person who purchased the claim was as green as green gets and had a bad case of gold fever. He paid top dollar for the claim and then paid top dolar for a person to put in a Plan of Operation for him. He could have done this himself for nothing with just a little help. Anyway, he had bought $300K worth of equipment to mine with. Problem was he had no crew & owned a business and had little time to mine himself except occasional weekends. So we made a deal to use his equipment for a test on one of our claims after we did a test of his claim.

   We got there and took a look around. It was the remnants of an old hydraulic operation. We did some research. This claim had been mined on multiple occasions. We couldn't find any virgin gravels, just tailings. We asked him if he tested the claim or did any research? He hadn't - just took the person's word who sold him the claim. I asked if he had even walked up the mountain to take a look at all the old workings & what had been done. He said no. The claim was completely mined out. We ran tailings for him which did have a little gold in them but nothing worth mining and paying your costs with. That's one of many horor stories we run into all the time. Be careful out there.

I'd like to respond to this question as someone who actualy owns mining claims. I know this was posted as a response to my claim jumper post. First of all, this is the first time in all the years of owning claims i've had an issue like this and rest assured we will resolve it. Our claims have 2 creeks on them & we allow panning. We also don't care about the people who come in with detectors digging holes all over the place and never asking permission. They may be digging up pickers or artifacts, I have no way of  knowing and couldn't care less because that isn't mining. High grading ounces of gold is and that's why I posted my concern.

Anyway, asking whether it's worth owning a mining claim depends on what you are planning on doing with it. If you are just doing recreasional prospecting it may not be worth it. If you are serous about getting gold it may be worth it. When you file a legal claim with the county & BLM you are getting the mineral rights transferred to you by the Federal government who owns them. They are now legally yours as long as you do the yearly filings with the county & BLM. The filings with the county are free but you will need to pay their recording fees each year, The BLM filings can get expensive or they can be cheap depending on the acreage of the claim & what you are doing with the claim or claims. The BLM charges an annual maintenance fee of $165 per 20 acres. So if you own a 40 acre claim that will cost you $330. However, if you are active on your claims working them & improving them then you can file a Small Miners Waiver form. All it requires is that you perform $100 worth of work on your claim each yr. You can price that by the value of anything you put in there as well as the value of your labor. That reduces the annual fee to $15. This is the way the government discourages people who just want to own mining claims and have them sit dormant for yrs. You will also need to pay taxes to the county the claims are in. Our taxes run about $1.15 per acre so it's not a big deal. If you don't do your annual filings the mineral rights will go back to the Federal government. However, since you filed at the county they will still hold you responsible for the taxes until you file a simple one page claim abandonment form with them. Then you are done with the claim.

   Now what would be good reasons to own mining claims? If you were out prospecting and made a significant discovery that could be worth lots of money you may want to lock in those mineral rights. Another reason is if you want to do a commercial operation to make money from the claims. In my case I am the president of a small gold mining exploration & leasing company. I have partners and investors. We go into old placer mine operations and explore them to see what the potential for mining them again might be. We file formal Plans of Operation with the Forest Service & post a reclamation bond. Then we go in with heavy equipment and explore them by running hundreds of cubic yards of gravels & doing valuations. Sometimes we do it by grab samples or bucket samples in more remote locations. It all depends & every situation is unique. I absolutely love what I do. Exploration to me is more fun than mining which gets monotonous. 

   Once we prove the ground we may do some small scale mining ourselves or lease out the claim to someone who wants to mine it with his own Plan of Operation. We always assist the lessee with that. Those can be done at no cost if you are capable of doing them yourself. If you hire someone to do them it gets expensive. We also lease areas of claims for smaller projects to people who want to work ground without heavy equipment. We never ever lease unproven ground. Period. Before you file a claim, lease a claim, or buy a claim, always test it either yourself or find a prospector who knows what he is doing. I could start another thread on green horns who have gold fever and been taken advantage of. It's sad. 

   So there is no simple answer to this question, it depends on your plan for the claim. In our case we have to own the claims and mineral rights. Hopefully this clears up some of the myth about mining claims and why or why not owning one is a good fit for you. Cheers.

   I'd like to take a brief pause & dedicate this song to Jed Stevens & John.

   If anyone isn't familier with this mine and claim jumpers and worse you might want to check the miners journal from 1936 i'm posting here called "LOST GOLD AT THE DEAD MAN'S MINE ** A MINERS JOURNAL". I haven't got it all up yet but have been posting entries every day.