Condor

Steve,

I see your point on using a specific tone assigned to typical goldfield trash rather than true discrimination.  Running zero or even negative discrimination then setting the range of typical goldfield ferrous trash to the lowest tolerable tone, gold and other non-ferrous come in at a user preference higher pitch tone.  Sounds good in theory.  A great place to try it would be that hydraulic pit we hiked summer before last.  

Hopefully we see the new elliptical coil before I leave for N. CA.  My trip has been delayed for a couple weeks.  I should be up that way by the end of June now. 

I know this topic has appeared off and on over the years, but I'd like to better understanding on the theory and principle of using one over the other, ie. depth, and target id and what compromises do I induce.  The reason I ask is the new V4 for XP Deus has the ability to set a minus discrimination.  It kills the ability to use the "horseshoe" screen for ferrous target ID, but VID numbers are tolerable.  What theoretically happens if I set a negative discrimination, but use Notch to handle ordinary ferrous trash? 

Hey Norv,

He's hard to understand under the best of circumstances, even for us.   He comes from a part of the country where they have people who are their own uncle. 

In retrospect, Steve should probably close this topic.  I don't think any good can come from a topic about "bashing" Minelab, it goes against the grain of this forum.  Keep it real, keep it current and keep it tasteful.  I want to read real world tests without some preconceived notion of the adverse outcome.  My bad!

I just read one report by an Aussie dissatisfied customer.  What a surprise.  We heard the same things about the initial release of the SDC 2300 and the GPZ 7000.  As I recall our moderator took a fair amount of bashing from his reviews of the previous machines as well. 

For Pete's sake, it's a VLF and in OZ it cannot hope to equal pulse induction in hot ground, nor does it claim to.  It's an entry level machine ostensibly targeting the African gold rush.  Its price point and turn on and go features have a place.

As Steve as said time and again, when considering VLF, there really are no groundbreaking technology innovations available for this platform other than ergonomics and simplicity of use.  I've tried my hand at VLFs over the years and I liked the Gold Bug II for a very narrow purpose, small, shallow gold in relatively quiet ground.  I sold it in favor of the Deus.  I don't think the Deus, at least the 54Khz 9" round, is better than or even equal to the GBII for that purpose, but it is more versatile and I'm sticking with it. 

Get ready for the Minelab bashing to begin. 

Hey Brett,

They'll be there, ordinary flatlanders would need a helicopter to get to that spot.  The only roads were washed in the late '50s.  I'm pretty sure I'm the only modern detector ever been in there, but it really is the fringe of placer gold country.  The area produced a lot of lead and silver, gold as a by-product.  I have to keep thinking I'm going to find that isolated ledge of gold, it's not the probabilities, but the possibilities that keeps me going, plus I need the adventure.   

OK, after all the kind words and get well wishes from my incautious adventuring on Outing IV, I went back out in the wilds of Sunny Yuma.  Stitches out, hand still sore, groin injury tolerable.  I left for the local Colorado River area on Wed afternoon to catch a few sundown largemouth bass with plans to hike what passes for mountains down here on Thur morning.  Bass fishing was great, but I just couldn't get comfortable in a kayak with a bum knee and aching hamstring.  I persevered and caught a couple nice bass.  I slept on the boat, not the kayak mind you,  and started hiking at sunup.  I set the Deus HF up a little bit different thinking there would be no trash.  I used the standard "Fast" program but added "negative" Discrimination available in the V4 update, Sens at 85, Freq 54, Reactivity 2.  Right away I hit a couple ferrous trash targets that easily registered between 2 and 4 on the VID.  Both modern type nails but the VID was spot on.  Next I hit an old .22 shell casing with a VID of 74.  I then hit the first nugget, the smallest of the two.  It showed a solid VID of 58 and weighs .28 gram.  Great start for the morning.  I then hit a few more ferrous targets registering in the 2 to 4 VID and I didn't bother to dig.  Next came the bigger nugget just shy of 1 gram.  It was probably 4 to 6 inches deep and showed a solid VID of 55.  When I rounded the next bend in the wash I found a small section of old drywash tailings up on the shoulder of the wash.  Full of 1950's era trash, nails, screws and wire, apparently the source of the trash in the wash.  One thing fooled me though, a deep tobacco tin registering in the high 60's and mid 70's on the VID.  By then 2 hrs on,  it was getting hot, mid 80's temps and I had a long walk back.  I decided to take a short-cut, over the top of the mountains.  Rarely a good idea, especially with an already bum knee and sore hamstring.  Nevertheless I packed the Deus in my pack and broke out the trekking poles for the hike.  I ended up finding a decent Mountain Sheep trail that wound me through the hills and out to within a 1/2 mile of my destination.  When I got home and unpacked my gear I realized that I am a "Maroon"  (Nurse Paul/Nevada Chris saying)  and had left the Deus Control Unit and Earphones laying on a rock ledge while I packed the pack for the trek back.  So tomorrow I'm headed back out there, although I think I'll take the GPZ 7000 and look for some deeper nuggets. 

I think I'm really getting the hang of this Deus.  There is no threshold and over hot ground it clips and chirps.  I'm sure that would affect depth ultimately, but it does what is expected for discriminating the ferrous trash.  I think, although I can't be certain, the "negative" Discrimination makes the targets much more reactive on the VID screen.  The "Horseshoe" screen was useless at these settings, however the VID was quite helpful.  This machine is not bump sensitive and weighs next to nothing, after dragging that Z around, no kidding.  I'm sure the Minelab Monster is going to be a great unit, but I'm sticking with this Deus.  It's ultimately packable and reasonably forgiving on its settings.  A great addition for the kind of detecting I do.  

Until the next time kids, Condor out.

Thanks for all the kind words boys.  There is a minor upside to this mishap.  I broke down and bought myself a Kindle Paperwhite E reader to pass the time.  A marvelous product for us shut-ins.  You don't need a reading lamp and I can adjust the font so that reading glasses are unnecessary.  I had cataract surgery this spring and while my distance vision is now extraordinary, the implants can't really correct for close up work.  I have reading glasses scattered around the house, never where I need them.  I have been enjoying the fabulous works of Patrick O'Brien, Lucky Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin series.  Over the past 10 years I have read this series at least 3 times through and enjoy it more each time I read. 

I am packing my gear for an overnighter with a little largemouth bass fishing and minor gold prospecting on tap here on the Colorado River.  I did an evening 1/2 mile walk with some discomfort in the stitched knee and tolerable pain in the groin strain.  Fresh air and sunshine are sure to speed my recovery. 

By mid June I'll be heading up north to CA gold country and probably Rye Patch.  Hopefully, I'll catch up with some of you then. 

Last week we had a brief cooling spell in sunny Yuma so I took the opportunity to get out with the Deus again.  I was scouting a new area wearing my typical Yuma attire, shorts and T-Shirt and had not yet put on my gear and most regrettably had not put on my knee pads.  I was pushing up through some steep terrain with loose gravel and big rocks.  I took a wrong step and had one of those slow motion thoughts about this not ending well.  It seems that gravity has some fairly predictable adverse effects on short, chubby, 62 yr old detectorists traversing tricky ground.  I made roughly 3 rotations on the way down, coming to rest against some nasty rocks.  As I lay there gathering my wits and waiting for pain to alert me to any major injuries, I wondered, not for the first time, why I do this, especially all alone.  Nevertheless, I picked myself up and found I was bleeding pretty good from a puncture in fat part of my right palm.  Then, I felt a searing pain from my right hamstring across my butt cheek to my scotumus maximus.  Not cut mind you, just internal wrenching.  I assume that's what the NFL calls a "groin strain".  So I hobbled to safety and set about to stop the bleeding in my palm.  It was only then that I noticed my left knee bleeding pretty good as well.  I got some wound wash and squirted the knee clean, muttering "that's going to leave a mark".  Since I didn't have the services of our favorite medic VANursePaul, I figured I better let the professionals at this one.  I had my son take me to Sunny Yuma Regional Medical Center ER.  Fairly quick work, XRays all negative, hand, knee and hip.  10 stitches in the knee, a script for Vicodin and I was on my way in just over 2 hrs.  I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to mix my favorite analgesic "Dago Red" with the Vicodin, but the words "alcohol my intensify effect" seemed to suggest otherwise. 

So, last night I removed the last of the stitches and the knee feels fine, if not a little tender.  The palm wound is still really sore and the "groin strain" is a killer.  I walked a 1/4 mile this morning on flat blacktop in my neighborhood and the hamstring feels like an ice pick punching through my butt cheek to my nether regions.  I'm losing my mind being hobbled and not outside outsmarting some gold nuggets.  We have a bit of a cooling trend over the next few days, highs in the low 90's, so I'll be back at it, albeit a little slower and a little more careful. 

Hopefully, good news later this week on the rescheduled outing 4 with the Deus HF.  So until then, as Sgt Esterhaus on Hill Street Blues used to say,  "let's be careful out there". 

I'm pretty sure I can match that performance with a glass eye in a duck's anus.  Just my opinion mind you, I wouldn't want to impugn the integrity of a fortune 500 company with a boatload of peer reviewed test results. 

Awhile back I was in a local prospecting shop and some "flatlander greenhorns" were discussing the various technologies available for gold prospecting.  One turned to me announced that the $39.00 divining  rods were the way to go, that the clerk of the store had found lots of gold with them.  I simply asked why she was working here if it were that simple.  All I heard were crickets, somewhere way out there in the distance. Might have been AZ mole crickets, ugly scoundrels they are, nevertheless with all the available information not only here, but the entire web, how does anyone not know this stuff.  No offense intended for all owners of "magnetic bracelets", "Long Range Locators" and "Skin so Soft" insect repellent.   No sh**t, that stuff works. 

Jasong,

When I can get a good VDI, they range from mid 40 to mid 50's at 54KHZ. The tiny nuggets produce a good clear tone, but they will hardly register a VDI.  I didn't show the backsides of a couple nuggets.  Clearly specimen type nuggets.

Hey Fred,

I wheeled and dealed using some of my gold to find a replacement 7000.  I had actually found almost 9 oz of gold with the original 7000, so it in essence paid for itself.  Now I'm starting over, sad face, but glad face that I'm back in the saddle.  I'll looking to head up North when the heat runs me out of Yuma.

Rob is spot on, in a trashy area the Deus will excel on shallow gold. 

Jasong,

This is my 2nd time out with the Deus and I purposely left the 7000 behind so that I would stick to the Deus and give it a decent workout.  I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the Deus.  I sold my GB II, my GBPro and now have a buyer for my 2300, the Deus is filling the niche as a backup to my 7000 and go to for shallow bedrock.  It's feather light, collapses down for packing and wireless to boot.  I would really like to give it a go in the old hydraulic pits up north.  It's not going to help on bullets and lead fragments, but on square nails it should really give me an advantage.  I just don't have the fortitude to dig the trash that Steve H and others are willing to endure. 

I took the Deus out for a test run with the brand new 9" round HF coil.  I've been a dedicated GPZ user so naturally anything less is bound to seem anemic.  I ran the Deus over some fairly mild ground here in Sunny Yuma for about 3 hrs this morning.  I started with the standard V4 Goldfield program in the 58 khz and the unit ran really smooth.  I went over some ground where the Z had found some shallow tiny bits of gold a few months ago.  No Joy, but I can't rule out operator error.  I took along a .3 gram test nugget that tested well in air tests at home.  Of course we all know how reliable air testing can be.  My limited testing left me slightly underwhelmed.  At 1.5 inches in the ground, the coil will not pick up the test piece on either lateral edges of the coil.  That was not unexpected with the Double D coil, but a little disappointing.   The coil will pick up the test piece as soon as it crosses the center line of the coil windings, with the loudest signal practically dead center.  The front edge of the coil didn't give a noticeable tone until about 1" into the centerline.  I detected all manner of typical goldfield trash and it accurately ID'd most of it.  Naturally, lead bullet shards were indistinguishable from gold.  

Just for grins I switched to the V4 "Hot" program in the same ground at 58 khz.  I actually preferred the "Hot" program for a little better tone ID.  I moved the Discrimination levels around and tried the -6.4 that's available in the V4.  The machine got pretty noisy in the negative Discrim.  I played around with the Reactivity levels, but didn't find anything earthshaking.  My only real experience with VLF machines was the Gold Bug II which I ran maxed out.  The Bug just seemed to have more tone "punch" over tiny gold, but that is just my recollection without any current means to compare.  I should have waited for the elliptical coil with the higher frequency like the Bug II.   I have one good place with shallow bedrock and a lot of trash that I mean to try next.  That should be a better trial for this machine.  I really want to like this machine for use in trashy areas that make the Z tiresome. 

As I was working along a rut in a washed out road I put the coil right over a young rattlesnake apparently out for a little sun.  He never buzzed until he got safely under a bush.  Just a reminder that springtime is snake season. 

Hey Steve,

I can't remember whether the new HF coils are Double D or Concentric.  Now might be a good time to refresh our knowledge base on the relative strengths and weaknesses of DD vs Concentric as they pertain to VLF detectors.  As I recall there has been some discussion of this topic scattered in various posts from the past.  Can you give us a quick refresher?

I'm hoping to do the same thing with the XP Deus once we get the V4 coils.  That thing will weigh almost nothing with no control box to add weight and bulk.

Paul checked out that ad and ended up buying the detector.  It was all very legitimate. 

For those not following VaNursePaul's Facebook page we had a major theft at my house this morning.  Paul had his travel trailer parked in my driveway and our detectors in his Toyota Sequoia parked next to the trailer.  Sometime in the wee hours someone stole the Toyota parked right next to the trailer where Paul was sleeping.  While we were making a police report they found the Toyota a mile away abandoned, no detectors.  The homeowners policy only covers property stolen from my vehicle, not a visitor's vehicle.  Paul is checking his renters policy, we're not too confident that the insurance company will make good.  You know how it is with insurance, they like those premiums but hate to pay claims. 

The cops have the serial numbers and we'll be checking craigslist etc..  Anybody hearing of a really good deal on used GPZ let me know.

The fact is "Big Red" has been one of the most reliable pieces of equipment I've owned and I'm hard on equipment.  My son is the mechanic of the family and he keeps up on the maintenance, me I just drive the crap out of em.  I'll go back out later this week and finish my exploration as well as explore the side gullys and hillsides where these nuggets came from.  They obviously haven't traveled far from the source, but in this part of AZ alluvial movement is scarce.  These nuggets were scattered over nearly 1/2 mile of shallow overburden gully, most of them tucked into the side banks where they haven't moved in many years.  I sure wish I had found this before the oldtimers and the VLF detector had gone over them. 

Hey Fred and Brett,

Give me a call or text when you are ready to meet up.  As far as the lions, a couple years ago I found the carcass of a full grown mountain sheep ram the lion had killed and drug the remains up and into the low branches of a Palo Verde tree.  Based on the decomposition and gnaw marks, he had visited the carcass a number of times over a couple weeks.  A friend of mine shot one in an archery hunt but lost the trail at twilight.  When he resumed the search next morning he found that it had not only died, but another lion was already eating it.   I see a fair number of bobcats, but they are really shy and don't weigh more than 20 lbs.  I'm a tough old bird, only two things scare me.  Women and the Police.  One might take all your money, the other take your freedom.  It pays to be wary of varmints of all sorts particularly them two legged varieties.  

I've been running the GPZ, here in Yuma by the Sea, with the In Ear Monitors (Etymotic)+ 75 ohm Impedance adapter + mini stereo amp.  My settings have been HY, Normal, Sens of 20, Low Smoothing.  The main difference for the past 2 weeks has been full stop minimum Threshold.  What I have found is that with more volume from the mini amp, I am hearing everything the machine has to offer with no threshold.  Mind you, this is all pretty quiet ground and I really make an effort to avoid the trashy areas.  Occasionally I hit the zones of red clay and the machine will heehaw to beat the band.  No bueno for these settings.  I end up running Difficult in those clay zones. 

As you can see from the the photos (past 2 mornings), I am finding some really tiny gold.  All I can say is without threshold, the Z's background chatter smooths to a hum over tiny gold.  They're a bugger to recover and I've walked away from quite a few that I just couldn't get into the scoop.  They are obviously so small that it's not worth the effort.  The big ones take care of themselves.  The 6 gram piece was down about 14 inches on a small terrace above the normal dry desert wash. 

This system is working for me because with 0 threshold I'm not bombarding my hearing with constant noise.  The Ety's are super noise isolating so I am hearing all changes in the background chatter of the Z.  The down side is I will have trouble hearing that Lion or rattlesnake if he gets after me.  Well, until that becomes a problem I'll stick to what's working. 

Disclaimer:  My testing is not rigorous nor scientific in any way.  Individual hearing is highly subjective and what works for me may not work for you.  As always your mileage may vary.

Detector: Minelab 7000 - HY, Normal, Sens 20, Volume max

Earphones:  Etymotic 4s  100 ohm impedance

Adapter: APureSound 75 ohm impedance 1/4 inch headphone jack conversion to 1/8 earphone jack.

Amplifier:  FiiO A3

I have always used the Ety earphones in all my previous GPX detectors.  Headphones are just too hot and cumbersome for me.  The Ety's are top of the line In Ear Monitors with balanced armatures.  Ety was primarily a hearing aid manufacturer and got into the earphone market for high end earphones.  The 4s cost in the neighborhood of $300.00.  Their 3 flange silicone ear piece is super noise isolating, but not particularly comfortable.  If you are worried about hearing snakes, cougars, bears and such, you won't like this much noise isolation. 

Until I went out with Lucky Lundy I was very happy with using the WM12 external speaker for all my detecting.  But after seeing his results with really good headphones, I was convinced I was missing some of the super faint targets.  I switched to another brand of earphone while I was out there at Rye Patch and was getting decent results but the audio was harsh giving me more of an audio fatigue.  

So, for the past couple days I've been playing around with different audio setups trying to find a good balance.  After locating a few undug faint targets, I switched back and forth between audio setups over these targets.  My results were interesting but not particularly life changing. 

Adding 75 ohms of impedance bringing my total impedance to 175 lowered the available volume sufficiently for my 62 yr old impaired hearing that I added the mini music amplifier to give me more volume.  My unscientific impression of adding more impedance felt like adding audio "smoothing".  The audio seemed a little more stable and less jittery.  Again, I switched back and forth over the same targets adding impedance and then without it.   I even switched between the wireless WM12 and a direct connection to the detector, which did not seem to make any difference in the quality of the tone.  I also ran Beats sports earphones with 27 ohms impedance.  The audio sounded really harsh with too much uncomfortable scratchy highs.  Adding the impedance made them tolerable, but not great.   Results: Running 175 ohms impedance produced a smoother, more stable background but lowered audio volume. 

The most significant thing I found in my testing was playing around with the Threshold.  I had been running Threshold at low 30's with the external speaker, but with the earphones that's just too much "noise" too close to the earbones.   With these In Ear setups I found that I could run the Threshold at 0 and get perfectly identifiable target tones over these tiny, tiny targets.  The best I can describe it is the detector has a rhythm of background beeps and bleeps, but over a tiny target the beeps stretch into a faint hum.   A good target will come through loud and clear without any confusion.

My target results are impressive.  The smallest nugget is .09 gram.  I found all these over the past 2 mornings in ground that I've been over dozens of times.  I am certain that the earphones with their noise isolation improved my results, but adding the impedance probably just made the audio a little more comfortable.  Bottom line, good aftermarket headphones already have between 100 and 200 ohms of impedance.  Frankly, I don't think adding more than that will produce much benefit.  Adding the mini amp helped me, especially running with 0 Threshold. 

There is an electronics company in Hong Kong called APureSound that makes impedance adapters for use with high end stereo headphones.  I bought a 1/4 adapter from them that adds 75 ohms of impedance.  I'm going to try it with my 100 ohm IEMs on the Z7000 and see if it makes any difference.  In theory it's going to lower the noise floor and reduce volume.  They will make custom adapters with any amount of impedance you want.