Bill (S. CA) Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 15 hours ago, UT Dave said: I only know a couple of competent Manticore users. But, for us, steel caps are a complete non issue, like not worthy of discussion. Aluminum caps, complete non issue. Even the dreaded Corona cap, which the Nox 800 loved to make me hate, the Manticore dutifully reports as a mixed allow and definitely not a coin or good ring. Digging caps is voluntary with the Manticore - if you don't want to dig any, then don't. If the Vortex does this too, awesome. But I'd really have to see it with my own eyes to believe that the Vortex does it better. The only caps that are even a little bit troublesome with the Manticore are aluminum screw caps. They report in the mid 70's typically. No single US coins typically report in that range. Zinc spills, mixed clad spills, junk jewelry, keys, dog tags, yes sometimes. But no single coin. Some small silver rings do report in the same ID range. But, the strength and size of the signal tells the tale in my experience. Aluminum screw caps are highly identifiable with the Manticore. Other, better targets that have the same TID range, have different size and strength of signal characteristics at a high enough rate of consistency to not worry about passing up the aluminum screw caps, while still finding plenty of small silver and mixed clad spills with the same TID. Again, if the Vortex can do this too, awesome. But it's not beating the Manticore. Not unless I see it with my own eyes. And, I have hunted alongside a Vortex in a park - and my Manticore kicked it's butt back to Texas. On everything. Vortex absolutely could not call a nickel from a tab. Easy peasy with the Manticore. Vortex absolutely could not hit a 9" copper Memorial. Easy peasy with the Manticore. Simply put in just my opinion. Maybe the Vortex can do these things as well as the Manticore. But at this point, I do not believe the Vortex is better. Really, I don't believe even nearly as good, but I'm open to the possibility. At 7+" depth? Forget about it. Vortex need not apply. - Dave UT Dave, I found your comments very interesting in that I have used both the Vortex and the Manticore. The Vortex, as you pointed out, simply cannot differentiate between a beaver tail and a nickel. The last time out with it I dug a dozen beaver tails and two nickels. Then I stopped digging 52's. Same with a dime and an aluminum screw cap. Solid 79 on both. If I can't even dig a dime I'm done. I put the detector back in the car and went home. I won't run the Vortex again until Garrett hopefully can expand the TID numbers. However, with my Manticore, which I am relatively new to, those aluminum screw caps are really tough. In my parks they read low 80's and I feel like I have to dig them. Can you expand a bit on how you recognize them with your Manticore? Thank you. Bill 3 Link to comment https://www.detectorprospector.com/topic/27390-garrett-vx9-nokta-legend-pricing-january-2nd-2025/page/3/#findComment-287832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBMe Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 2 hours ago, Chase Goldman said: You are the one who brought up Newton's Shell Theorem which is solely related to gravitational forces relative to an object's center of mass. As I stated in my response, I recognized that you might be talking about how the center of mass of the coil/target "system" as the coil moves but how the CM of that "system" moves has little to do with how a target is detected other than coil motion is required to create the induced magnetic field imbalance that results in target detection. Furthermore, coil distance and angle affect how the transmit coil's magnetic field induces eddy currents in the target and how the receive coil senses the weak magnetic field that results from those eddy currents. It's not a system center of mass thing it's a magnetic field strength and symmetry thing. The context of the Manticore discussion you cite is relative to the "movement" of weaker target ID (along the conductive ID scale) due to interactions of the eddy-current-generated magnetic fields between adjacent targets (and ground response), not actual relative movement of the CM of the targets or the coil itself. This is commonly referred to as TID upscaling or downscaling. The only role the coil plays is creating the time variant magnetic field that induces the eddy currents in those targets. While the coil itself can influence the magnetic field of a shallow objects, it has little to do with the mass of the coil, but is related to it's coil winding footprint (the mass of the coil comprises non-metallic materials abd other non-coil components that have no effect on the target signal). Furthermore, that motion effect alone is not necessarily causing the elongation you are perceiving when swinging your Vortex over low density, isolated targets. I'm glad you've discovered a trash tell with the Vortex that makes your park hunting more enjoyable. I don't dispute that. I only take issue with your theories on why it is happening, which appear to reflect that you may have some misperceptions of the physics principles involved. No problem with that as no one needs to understand the physics behind the operation of metal detectors to either enjoy or be proficient at the hobby. I welcome any critique from the forum members here that I know who have a much, much better understanding of metal detector tech and physical principles than I will ever attain. I welcome them to point out any errors I've made and will learn from those responses. However, I don't plan on responding further on this as it appears to be devolving into a spiraling "last word" exchange and the potential to inadvertently disseminate technical misinformation. Been there, done that and it benefits no one. So for the sake of those reading this thread, I will put my shovel down and stop digging myself a deeper hole. Happy Detecting in 2025 I agree to disagree. Link to comment https://www.detectorprospector.com/topic/27390-garrett-vx9-nokta-legend-pricing-january-2nd-2025/page/3/#findComment-287841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lama Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Bill (S. CA) said: UT Dave, I found your comments very interesting in that I have used both the Vortex and the Manticore. The Vortex, as you pointed out, simply cannot differentiate between a beaver tail and a nickel. The last time out with it I dug a dozen beaver tails and two nickels. Then I stopped digging 52's. Same with a dime and an aluminum screw cap. Solid 79 on both. If I can't even dig a dime I'm done. I put the detector back in the car and went home. I won't run the Vortex again until Garrett hopefully can expand the TID numbers. However, with my Manticore, which I am relatively new to, those aluminum screw caps are really tough. In my parks they read low 80's and I feel like I have to dig them. Can you expand a bit on how you recognize them with your Manticore? Thank you. Bill Hi Bill on a slightly different subject i plan on getting a Vortex but probably will wait until the reaper coil is available my question for you is do you think multi salt is even better than the Apex? i think ms on the Apex is as good or better than anything out there in fact i have parked 2 much more expensive detectors in favor of the Apex but i do have some situations i want to snorkel so i probably would eventually drown the Apex. 2 Link to comment https://www.detectorprospector.com/topic/27390-garrett-vx9-nokta-legend-pricing-january-2nd-2025/page/3/#findComment-287850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill (S. CA) Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 28 minutes ago, The Lama said: Hi Bill on a slightly different subject i plan on getting a Vortex but probably will wait until the reaper coil is available my question for you is do you think multi salt is even better than the Apex? i think ms on the Apex is as good or better than anything out there in fact i have parked 2 much more expensive detectors in favor of the Apex but i do have some situations i want to snorkel so i probably would eventually drown the Apex. Like you, I really like the Apex for the beach but as we both know the drowning possibility is an issue. The Vortex offered performance similar to the Apex with one noticeable difference. It does not false in the wash like the Apex does. The Apex required me to GB in the water which was a bit of a pain. Depth to me was similar but it's hard to judge when you are getting clad over a foot down in the wet. Deep is deep, right? It is also very good at bottle cap rejection using iron audio. The only difference is that on the Apex you push a button to turn it on/off; on the Vortex you have to go into settings to do that. Last thing, the stock coil gives very good coverage. Funny that I have a Reaper for my Apex but have done better with the Viper coil. Not really sure why, may just be luck. I hope this helps. Bill 4 Link to comment https://www.detectorprospector.com/topic/27390-garrett-vx9-nokta-legend-pricing-january-2nd-2025/page/3/#findComment-287852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lama Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Thanks Bill 1 Link to comment https://www.detectorprospector.com/topic/27390-garrett-vx9-nokta-legend-pricing-january-2nd-2025/page/3/#findComment-287857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff McClendon Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 Now, that was refreshing. Some first hand testimony about something that the Vortex does well=saltwater beach detecting. I just want to reiterate that I am not knocking the Vortex for its beach mode detecting, single frequency detecting or any feature that it has or doesn't have. My sole reason for giving the Vortex a well deserved black eye is for its Multi Frequency land based mode's whacky non-ferrous target ID system and non-ferrous notching system. Otherwise, the rest of the settings and functions of Multi Frequency are at least adequate for solid detecting. Iron separation, iron audio volume settings, iron bias with the V2.05 update, depth with its stock 11X8.5" coil, recovery speed settings, 3 or 5 tone audio and overall ground handling are all a step up from the Apex in my opinion. It would make a decent gold prospecting detector too. All of these aspects are very positive. I got blasted on another forum and on some YouTube channels for saying this but I am going to repeat it. The VX9 has real possibilities if Garrett fixes the Multi Frequency target ID/notch system. Everything else about the detector is very positive. So in my opinion the VX9 is just millimeters away from being a competitive detector with other detectors in its price range/feature set IF Garrett can fix the Multi Frequency non ferrous target ID/notch system. 6 Link to comment https://www.detectorprospector.com/topic/27390-garrett-vx9-nokta-legend-pricing-january-2nd-2025/page/3/#findComment-287866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UT Dave Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 6 hours ago, Bill (S. CA) said: However, with my Manticore, which I am relatively new to, those aluminum screw caps are really tough. In my parks they read low 80's and I feel like I have to dig them. Can you expand a bit on how you recognize them with your Manticore? Thank you. Bill Happy to try and relate how I recognize aluminum screw caps with the Manticore Bill. My typical park settings are ATG, Sensitivity 22, Recovery 5. I always run 1 Region All Tones and only very rarely notch anything. With those settings, in my park dirt, the aluminum screw caps don't report as high as the 80's. Generally solid mid 70's, 75-76 most of the time. The glaring exception is when they are flattened, then they report higher and often fool me. For me, 78-81 is where copper penny and clad dimes and some small silver rings report. The tells of an aluminum screw cap for me are the signal strength in relation to the size. They give a big bright report. For sizing I like to quickly do a ratchet pin point. If it's a big bright 75-56 and sizes bigger than a penny, it's usually a screw cap. If the same 75-76 is a bit more muted signal, and sizes either smaller than a screw cap, or, more often bigger, I know it probably isn't a screw cap and will dig or not depending on my mood, where I'm at and what I'm finding. If it's bigger, the situation is such that I'm perfectly happy to dig up a mixed clad spill, or investigate just what it is out of curiosity, I'll dig it. Mixed clad spills, keys, junk jewelry being common finds. If it sizes smaller, I always dig it. Usually, it's random junk, but often enough it's a small silver ring, so I dig those nearly always. But in a nutshell, if it's a 75-76 signal that sizes with ratchet pinpoint the size of a screw cap and sounds a bit strong for the size, I walk away. Some of my parks I get a LOT of those signals. And, just like any other signal that I "mostly" ignore, I dig one or two every time out, just to keep myself honest. And they are almost always what I thought - aluminum screw cap, and if not that, some other aluminum trash. It's similar to getting a fresh zinc signal at a depth where zincs are not going to be fresh, or a zinc signal that is too big and bright for a zinc. While I "mostly" ignore zinc signals, I dig those and they are almost never zincs. Usually, not anything good, either, but at least not zincs. - Dave 4 1 Link to comment https://www.detectorprospector.com/topic/27390-garrett-vx9-nokta-legend-pricing-january-2nd-2025/page/3/#findComment-287867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill (S. CA) Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 30 minutes ago, UT Dave said: Happy to try and relate how I recognize aluminum screw caps with the Manticore Bill. My typical park settings are ATG, Sensitivity 22, Recovery 5. I always run 1 Region All Tones and only very rarely notch anything. With those settings, in my park dirt, the aluminum screw caps don't report as high as the 80's. Generally solid mid 70's, 75-76 most of the time. The glaring exception is when they are flattened, then they report higher and often fool me. For me, 78-81 is where copper penny and clad dimes and some small silver rings report. The tells of an aluminum screw cap for me are the signal strength in relation to the size. They give a big bright report. For sizing I like to quickly do a ratchet pin point. If it's a big bright 75-56 and sizes bigger than a penny, it's usually a screw cap. If the same 75-76 is a bit more muted signal, and sizes either smaller than a screw cap, or, more often bigger, I know it probably isn't a screw cap and will dig or not depending on my mood, where I'm at and what I'm finding. If it's bigger, the situation is such that I'm perfectly happy to dig up a mixed clad spill, or investigate just what it is out of curiosity, I'll dig it. Mixed clad spills, keys, junk jewelry being common finds. If it sizes smaller, I always dig it. Usually, it's random junk, but often enough it's a small silver ring, so I dig those nearly always. But in a nutshell, if it's a 75-76 signal that sizes with ratchet pinpoint the size of a screw cap and sounds a bit strong for the size, I walk away. Some of my parks I get a LOT of those signals. And, just like any other signal that I "mostly" ignore, I dig one or two every time out, just to keep myself honest. And they are almost always what I thought - aluminum screw cap, and if not that, some other aluminum trash. It's similar to getting a fresh zinc signal at a depth where zincs are not going to be fresh, or a zinc signal that is too big and bright for a zinc. While I "mostly" ignore zinc signals, I dig those and they are almost never zincs. Usually, not anything good, either, but at least not zincs. - Dave Thanks for the tips, Dave. I'll have a talk with my ears and see if they agree to cooperate. Blll 1 1 Link to comment https://www.detectorprospector.com/topic/27390-garrett-vx9-nokta-legend-pricing-january-2nd-2025/page/3/#findComment-287872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardPack Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 1/2/2025 at 11:06 AM, Steve Herschbach said: Nokta has already pretty much bypassed both Fisher and Garrett, a position that will be cemented with a good PI that replaces anything built by those companies. At that point the only company that will be ahead of Nokta will be Minelab, and they are already nibbling on Minelabs heels. Given the price the Legend is a very viable alternative to the Deus 2 and Manticore, 90% of the bang for half the buck Let me ask this question framed in the realm of Garrett metal detectors, how does the Vortex stack up against the AT Pro/Gold/Max SF and the Apex MF? ( side note: best find was with a AT Pro, the target was a trade token laying on the surface covered by a flatten five gallon kerosene can then a second smaller flattened gallon can in an area with an abundance of iron trash. I don’t know if it was shell theory or not but within all those booming iron tones there was a good target tone.) 2 Link to comment https://www.detectorprospector.com/topic/27390-garrett-vx9-nokta-legend-pricing-january-2nd-2025/page/3/#findComment-287931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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