Clay Diggins

Hey Barry, have you had any luck getting mineral ownership data from the BLM? I've got a couple shapefiles from a few states like Colorado and New Mexico, but I can't seem to find anyone that has them for other states like AZ and NV. I know they have to have the data somewhere otherwise they couldn't make their mineral paper maps, but they just kept telling me they didn't have the data no matter who I spoke with until I just gave up trying.

 

Saw that you have them as a potential future map layer so was wondering if you had any more luck than I did and if so where a guy can get it. I'm also on that LR2000 bi-monthly distro so I have access to their servers where that data is hosted if it makes any difference, but its just LR2000 stuff in there from what I can tell.

We haven't had much time to work on that map Jasong. We've determined that most of what the BLM has offered for subsurface estate is out of date, inaccurate and not going to be shared in a usable form. We do have a long term plan in place to derive that information  from public land and patent information. That's a very big project but it will accomplish several other goals in the process so we've determined that it's worth the effort.

The bi-monthly extraction has a lot more information than the LR2000 website does. The whole database download amounts to more than 1 gig each two weeks and the information is presented in the original segregated table form unlike the aggregated LR2000 reporting service. Besides the ability to parse more extensive data and make innovative joins that are not possible with the LR2000 keeping each full database download allows us to do time and volume based analysis that isn't possible with the static data found in the LR2000 or single issue downloads from the bi monthly extract.

If you have the drive space, a fully time and spatially enabled database system and some good processing power there are several analysis you can accomplish that go well beyond the LR2000 or BLM static reports available. The Land Matters Claims Advantage Special Reports are a good example with a lot more sophisticated reports still to come as the full database accumulates over time.

Really appreciate the site, thanks a bunch. It's too bad the BLM (govt in general) can't outsource things like this to people who know how (and want) to make it user friendly for all of us to use, or maybe that's the point.

You are welcome Azavsfan. It's encouraging to know that you have found it useful.

The BLM and most other agencies have outsourced these projects for years to ESRI. Virtually every effort by that huge corporation, including the geocommunicator, has been a spectacular multi billion dollar failure.

Our own frustration at this situation led us to create Land Matters. Despite the multi billion dollar ongoing budget for the geocommunicator Land Matters has accomplished more in a year with two unpaid part time volunteers working on 6 year old consumer computers than ESRI has done with approximately 4.7 billion dollars and all the resources of the Federal government in more than 15 years. Clearly public information is better presented by the public than by huge mismanaged government programs.

The BLM is the least cooperative of the agencies we deal with. That's probably due to the culture that has built up there since the joining of the two agencies into the BLM in 1948. They are the least effective agency we've dealt with when it comes to their primary record keeping function. I think their substandard training and flawed record keeping systems lead to a "who cares" attitude. Add in the armed cop culture that was introduced in 1988 and you've got a generally substandard agency with a bad attitude towards the public they are supposed to serve.

That being said there are good people that do a good job within the BLM. We deal with several of them on a regular basis. We've had quite a few of them contact us privately to thank us for what we do and for providing the tools they have come to rely on.  I'm sure you would be surprised at who some of our government fans are. I hope we can encourage those individuals since years of hand slapping and shaming by Congress have done nothing to help the situation. In fact the result of Congress' efforts is generally the opposite of what you would expect.

It's time to try something different and for us at least we've decided that difference is in encouraging the good ones and helping them succeed. The alternative is virtually unthinkable. The BLM in their Land Office function are the record keepers for the nation - they must succeed if we are to prosper.

The fact is that we are stuck with these government agencies and their fruitless outsourcing contracts for the time being. We can make a difference but that's going to come down to individual effort. Trying to drum out the rot in these agencies by complaining is pretty much useless. Not everyone can take the reins with a project like Land Matters. We can however make a better future by encouraging the good, hardworking, competent individuals who work within these agencies every day. They have a thankless low paying job but they mostly persevere. Many eventually leave in frustration but with a little help, recognition and encouragement enough of them may stay and eventually create a helpful responsive government agency culture.

All public land users can participate in communicating with the BLM personnel and thanking those who help. That's pretty simple and basic but the current standard of avoiding or making enemies of our public employees has obviously been counterproductive.

The choice is always ours. We can curse and complain or we can encourage and enable. We've opted for a get it done attitude rather than waiting for these agencies to come around on their own. We may fail but no one will be able to say we didn't try.

Barry

As many of you know Land Matters updates their free online mining claims maps twice a month.

Normally we get updates from the BLM servers in Denver on the 2nd and the 16th of each month. We just received word today that the BLM has been having difficulty with their database updates for the last month or two and now it's affecting their partner delivery system. Best estimate right now is we will see updates by end of day tomorrow January 6th.

If you were wondering when the claims map update is coming or when the Claims Advantage Member reports will be available now you know. We will bring those updates to you as soon as we have the information.

Barry

Just a reminder:

Small Miners claim holders need to have their Affadavit of Labor or their Intent to Hold County Record copies filed with the BLM State office by end of day tomorrow Wednesday December 30th.

Don't be late or you will lose your claim.

Just a little Christmas poem from Ruby.

Wishing everyone a merry one.

Barry

I'll look forward to your new super detector Jasong!

On December 10, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Steve Herschbach said:

Bad Google translation at https://translate.google.com/translate?act=url&depth=2&hl=en&ie=UTF8&nv=1&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.tousapoele.fr/xp-deus-v4-et-nouveaux-accessoires/

That's a remote control Steve. It's been done. Could easily be done with a phone, probably even an old dial type if you can live without the display. Even the ad refers to it as a novelty accessory.

I thought you were talking about signal processing a transmitted coil signal on a phone. That's what a metal detector does (like I need to tell you that. ).

An App Based Detector. That's what I was addressing in my post.

It's not all about processor speed despite the hype. No way does an iPad have the processing power of a modern desktop computer. It doesn't even have a decent I/O interface much less the processor or bus speeds.

Neither the AMD phone chips nor the Android operating system have double precision floating point processing capability. Trying to crunch numbers on a pad is like molasses in January compared to a modern desktop. Crunching numbers is an important tool in my business and we have tried on our iPad.

The phones and pads are good at what they are designed for but so is the cheapest Bounty Hunter. Depends on what you want to accomplish it's not about the frequencies mentioned in the advertising. If you just want remote control from your phone that is very doable.

I've added the Sage Grouse proposed Mineral Withdrawal display to the Mining Claims Maps for the five affected states. It's a separate layer you will have to turn on to see.

This map has been heavily requested. Check it out while you can since the BLM is known for disappearing maps without notice.

This map was not easy to find. It's not going to be easy to use either because the BLM is serving it up in a light dirt color that blends with just about every base map layer. Now is a good time to learn to use the transparency tool found by right clicking the layer you want to change the transparency on.

The affected States Mining Claim Maps are linked here:

Oregon

Idaho

Wyoming

Nevada

Utah

Here's the description of the Map information from the BLM. As you can see the map isn't accurate because the boundaries of the final withdrawal won't be decided until after it's passed.
 

Quote

The areas recommended for locatable mineral withdrawal dataset were compiled from the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) National Greater Sage-Grouse (GRSG) Conservation Strategy, which includes Environmental Impact Statements (EIS) for the revision or amendment of 98 Forest Service and BLM land use plans.  Data reflect the areas of Sagebrush Focal Areas, a subset of GRSG Priority Habitat Management Areas, which are recommended for withdrawal from the Mining Law of 1872 in the Records of Decisions for the Approved Resource Management Plans and Amendments.

DISCLAIMER: No warranty is made by the BLM or FS for the use of this data. The GIS data included on this page is intended for broad planning purposes only and should not be solely relied upon for any decision making.  Accuracy of the GIS is limited to the accuracy of the data available to create these layers at the time of this project.  The information contained on the map is used to generally locate and identify the lands that are proposed for withdrawal in the sage brush focal areas and is for reference purposes only.  They should not be construed or used as legal descriptions.  Detailed maps and legal descriptions will be developed at a later date.

We are trying to figure out a way to get a list of the affected claims from this information. If we succeed we will make a list and share it on the Land Matters website.

Please pass these maps around. It's your Land and it Matters.

Barry

On December 7, 2015 at 9:52 AM, Steve Herschbach said:

Whoever does this right is going to score. Most old line companies will avoid it because it will eat into what most mainly sell you, which is the control box and what is in it. But XP has proven the working guts can all be in the coil, and the box is just a control and display interface.

Hey, I am the old fashioned give me a wired coil guy here. But I can see a big seller when I see it. Even if it were just a basic park coin shooter it would appeal to a very large market. I know this Russian detector is not it but the concept is a gold mine for the outfit that does it right.

Sell me the coil and make the app open source so we can all modify if we wish and watch the combined ingenuity of the community take over.

Of course the world would be better with open source "apps" that do whatever we want for free. That model is breaking down at present due to lack of incentive on the part of the folks who write the code but that could change. As long as consumers are willing to pay 100s of dollars for a marginal computing device but want free or low cost "apps" to get use out of their purchase the quality of "apps" is going to be stuck at Candy Crush and Minelab's 20 year old XChange 2 format. Relying on "free" for your software does have it's drawbacks.

It's really ultimately going to be up to the "old line" companies to come up with an "app". Either they need to pony up on the R&D costs or license their technology because the actual final results are determined by the processing of the raw signal no matter what method was used to produce it. Those processing systems are proprietary and are what distinguish the capabilities of one detector from another, all else being equal.

I don't think phones, in their present form, are capable of handling that processing, but they are getting closer. The big octa-core processors can now handle the math involved but the bus speeds are still a stumbling block. The new iPhone upped the bus speed, and performance, considerably but with it's dual core processor it's about the slowest of the "smart" phones when it comes to math.

Breaking the multi core, bus speed, graphics, battery capacity, heat circle is the big task ahead for phones. They've got a long way to go to catch up with even your average home computer much less the purpose built processing of a device like a modern pi detector. Their small size and low power radio requirements just don't allow the use of the latest speed technologies.

Other than bus speed improvements coprocessors are probably the best way to get the capability needed. The Apple M7 coprocessor and the Motorola 8 core split show that coprocessors can lead the way to faster computing on phones but they also demonstrate that phone makers are more interested in adding more locational ability, better graphics and games than they are in making a computer like device.

The smart phone is, after all is said and done, a walkie talkie with interesting and sometimes useful features added. As long as the bulk of the buying public finds that formula desirable the processing power advances that might lead to a sophisticated and responsive phone app based detector are going to be incidental at best.

Eventually we will break out of the concept of phones and detectors being different machines just as most people today see email as a cell phone or web technology (it isn't). When that time comes I doubt we will be waving smart phones at our detectors but I'm not a prophet and stuff happens in the future that I haven't lived yet. It's always "anything can happen day".

WOW first Detector Prospector Man of the Year!

Congratulations Paul you certainly deserve it. 

Excellent choice Steve and a great idea. Paul's generosity and good will is well known by his friends.

Thanks for recognizing Paul and setting an example for good forum juju Steve.

You are welcome Spencer!

I think the withdrawal map is doable if they have settled on a defined area. I'll look around and see if that info is available yet.

It sounds like they are declaring the Plan abandoned and revoked. That's a big difference from closing a claim.

From what you write here maybe he didn't complete his work and reclamation timely within the terms of the Plan of Operation? That would cause a POO to be revoked. 43 CFR 3809.602

If he agreed to do the work then he may lose his bond and have his plan revoked but his claim can't be closed for not mining it.

We've been saving up data for Land Matters for a while now. We have a lot of sources for the data we are compiling but the biggest part, most months, is the twice monthly BLM database copies we archive from the BLM server in Denver.

We download more than 3 Gb of database files each month in updates and that allows us to do time based comparisons of the information. That's a whole other dimension of analysis than looking around the LR2000 database.

Besides our twice monthly Mining Claims Maps updates and twice monthly Claims Advantage Closed Claims Reports we have started to publish Special Reports that leverage our database to answer questions that can't be answered by just looking through the public information. That's where we are getting the information to make the charts I've been posting here and the very popular Mining Claims Maps on the Land Matters website.

The latest Special Report answers the question:

How many Placer Claim locations were held for more than 20 years and are now unclaimed?

The basic answer is pretty amazing:



Yeah... that many, that old and that long. That many old historical Placer Claims are not now claimed. Makes you wonder if we are missing something or if in the old days they mined mud for fun. :icon_scratch:

To get the final result we broke these claims down by Quarter Section and took out the obvious withdrawn and now private areas. We checked against current active claims locations. Then we made a 15 page report, broken down by State and County, of each and every one of those claims. These report tables are sortable and each claim has a link to the Serial Register page for their closed case file.

Since we had to use GIS software to make the report we ended up with a map that gives a basic outline of these areas. Even though we are still putting the finishing touches to the report I thought I would put up that map and let you take a quick look around at what 18,835 open claims look like.

Here's the link to the map:

Special Report #3 Map

Look around. There might be something in your backyard! 

Yeah Paul, this is the report you've been waiting on. It should be in your box by morning  ...er hippy time.
 
Barry

You are right jasong. I misunderstood.

I was confused because you applied the concept of a right to pursue a discovery to actual possession of land.

Of course the right to try to do something does not automatically translate to a right to succeed. There is no right to enjoy the fruits of success without out actually accomplishing the task at hand.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Your 700 million acres of locatable federally managed public lands is very close to the actual figure jasong. We are working on presenting those lands in map form in the upcoming months at Land Matters. It will be a first. You can speculate why that would be while we create that rather obviously needed map.

I don't have a calculation for actual mineral deposit discoveries possible because by their very nature those are still unknown. As a general round figure I can accept 1% of locateable public land as a working hypothesis.
 
Where you are mistaken is that the right is "granted to ALL people". The American Grants are by their very nature earned not given.
 
It is well established in law and history that the right to a mineral grant is earned by the discovery and perfection of a valuable mineral deposit. There is no such thing as a collective right to to a grant or even a claim on public lands. The vast majority of the public will never discover a valuable mineral deposit nor will they earn any form of patent grant.
 
All of the American Patent Grants were earned grants. Some actual action by claimants with well defined parameters have been required to earn every patent ever granted in the United States.
 
Most of those patents were earned with much less effort and risk than any mineral patent grant. Those other patent grants were also less expensive per acre to purchase once the grant requirements were completed and the grant was earned. You and everyone in the west live on those granted, formerly public, lands.
 
This recent concept that all Americans should share equally in the results of the labors of the few was never supported in the many forms of patent grants offered in the past. To try to apply such a standard today would result in severe inequality and hypocrisy, as you have already clearly demonstrated in your math.

Here's my take on the value and place of mineral patents.

First the facts:

The minerals belong to the claim locator, or his successors and assigns, whether it's kept as a perfected mining claim or patented as private land.

As far as the public is concerned it's a difference without a distinction.

There is no requirement to patent a mining claim just as there is no requirement to mine an unpatented mining claim.

The ownership of the minerals is in the locator once the claim is perfected. The only long term difference is you would have nowhere to live if there had been no patents granted for the private land you now live on.

_________________________

Now the opinion with supporting facts:

There seems to be a vast misunderstanding of just what a patent grant is these days. I guess we could blame public education for not making it clear in their curriculum that the public lands are not owned by the government.

The public lands are held in trust, by Congress, for the people. They have already been bought and paid for with the sweat and blood of our ancestors. The people of the nation own the public lands collectively and the express intent of those owners has always been to distribute those lands to the citizens willing to develop them for the collective good of the nation.

This nation was impoverished until the multiple gold and silver discoveries were made in the 1840's and 1850's. There was no national coinage, the coin of the realm was the Spanish dolar or piece of eight. We didn't have enough gold and silver of our own to mint coins for general circulation. Mining made this country wealthy, not cotton, not pork bellies and not Microsoft.

Even today this country is third in the world in the production of mined minerals. Not much has changed about the effects of mining on our wealth in those 160 years since we discovered our own world class mineral deposits.

Not much except since the 1980's the Mining Acts that rewarded those who risked their lives and fortunes have had a good portion of the incentive to continue mining wealth from the ground removed. Mining has been stymied by those who believe it's unfair for miners to be rewarded for enriching this nation and it's people. Add in micromanagement by a misdirected populace and the threat to mining is clearly cultural.

Since that change of public perception of historical fact has caused our present desires to override our present, and historical, need to produce real wealth we now are faced with paying the price to have others mine for us.

Only the claim owner perceives the loss of the promise of a reward of patent for his risk and labor. The public is happy as long as they get their metals and minerals from somewhere.

Removing the promise of a patent at the end of the long road of proving a valuable mineral deposit affects the independent miner far more than the big mining companies. It's been decades since mining companies saw a financial advantage to a patent over simple claim maintenance fees.

Big mining companies now work large, low grade deposits with purpose built corporations that are dismantled, along with any future liabilities, once a deposit is worked out and reclaimed enough to recover their bonds. They have no incentive to patent those worked out deposits. If they need to return with new technology to mine again in the future they need only relocate with a new corporation - unless an independent miner has obtained a patent in the meantime.

Once you understand that fact of business you might better understand just why there is a moratorium on the funding for mineral patent processing. It has nothing to do with fairness or justice and everything to do with perceived investor value.

Greed is the driving force behind these changes. That greed is not the traditional reward of a patent to a hard working miner. That greed is in the endless calls of the "investor" for greater stock values rather than reliable dividends from a well managed mining business.

Why that greed has been bred into finance in this country is another rant for a different forum. Suffice it to say I believe abusing the right to a patent with a moratorium on processing those patents is a direct affront to the industriousness and courage of individual miners.

I seem to recall there are about 24 more to go Steve.

The funding moratorium goes away when Congress fails to vote to approve the next one. Every budget vote brings that possibility.

Mike, I'd like to hear more about that Mineral Survey you worked on. Mineral Surveys are still possible despite the moratorium and the BLM still processes that portion of the paperwork. Unfortunately certified Mineral Surveyors are getting older. The last Mineral Surveyor Examination graduates were passed in 1986 so even the "new" ones are getting near retirement.

I'm surprised more claim owners don't complete their proof to patent. When Congress lifts the moratorium the wise claim owner would be prepared to submit their application in my opinion.

We have several one eyed girls that don't smell too good lined up for you Paul. Will that do?

You may have gotten a good opportunity this week to prospect some of that big mining company land.

The BLM recently closed 2,681 lode claims in Nevada. That another 55,075 acres to poke around on!

Nevada is a BIG State. I'm wondering how much of it you could cover with a 14 inch coil in a lifetime?

Wishing you all nuggets that require wenches winches for the Holidays.

Sorry Paul I couldn't resist.   

Whoops! Seems like BLM isn't liking the attention. I took the link out for now. PM me if you would like to see the Serial Register page or just look up ORMC86146 on the LR2000.

On 12/2/2015 at 5:37 AM, goldbrick said:

I joined too! Any one that works as hard as Barry deserves our support.

Thanks for your support and kind words goldbrick!

Don't tell anybody but Leigh does all the work. I'm just the pretty face spokes model.

Barry

On 12/2/2015 at 2:27 AM, vanursepaul said:

^{What town should I be sitting in when the report comes out Barry????}  

 

^{Stakes in hand.....GPS on hip..... feels like the OK Land Rush.... hahaha...}

The 1893 claim is in the last (11/15/2015) Claims Advantage Report Paul.

Just sort the tables by Date Located and it should pop right up. I'm not going to post which State it's in here because some folks are a lot closer and I want to give you a fighting chance. 

That claim will also be in the upcoming Special Report #3 along with a whole bunch of others like it. Maybe you could just plan on carrying stakes and a pile of Location Notices and going nomad for the next month or so? A pile of cheese sandwiches, a few blankets and a convenience pail. It would be just like the old days eh?

You could be the proud new owner of more claims than you could ever mine!

p.s. Your latest Claims Advantage Report is in your email box. It went out tonight.

Barry

Congratulations to our fellow miners in Oregon!

The patent for the Garden Spot placer mining claim was finally issued.

Some hard working miners now have their own 50 acres of private land in the Siskyou National Forest and BLM managed lands.

The final cert was awarded in 1990 so it only took the BLM 25 years to get that stamp to the ink pad, stamp and sign the Patent and mail it out. Our fine employees at work!

ORMC86146 is now closed and private patented mineral property. The beauty is the proud "new" owners live on Galice Creek.

Barry

On 12/2/2015 at 7:50 PM, Rick Kempf said:

Barry.

When folks are willing to spend $10k on a detector - they would have to be soft in the head not to pony up $100 a year for your service.

Folks like you who actually DO something are so important to what we used to call civilization. Now sasdy, most are like me, just commenting.

Well done.

Thanks Rick, that means a lot coming from you.

We'll be sending out everybody's reports first thing in the morning. It's been a very long day.

Thanks to everyone who is helping make Land Matters a reliable resource for information.

More coming soon!

Barry

Paul you and Steve have been big supporters of Land Matters from the beginning. Without support like yours I don't think Land Matters could have been more than a dream.

You picked a good time to join Paul. Our limited time special ends soon so you will be getting all the Closed Claims Reports back to September 1st as well as all the Special Reports. I suspect our upcoming Closed Claims open to location Special Report #3 will be more valuable the earlier you get it too.

By joining early in the month you also get a bonus because your membership runs through the month following your sign up, in effect giving you 13 months of reports during your year long membership.

Thank you Paul for your continued support. It looks like it was your membership that put us over the top so we can now double the memory on the Land Matters server. This was sorely needed because although use of Land Matters website is exploding we have been reaching the limits of our server for over a month now.

Barry

There is something very interesting in the report above. OK there are several interesting things but this one really made the point about how sometimes things are right there in front of us but we need a little different point of view to notice them.

The oldest claim in the report above was located in 1893. I got curious about just what sort of claim folks would hold for 123 years?

That claim was located in a small valley well known for good placer gold.

It appears to be relatively unworked unlike it's neighboring claims.

It has good access with a road though the claim.

Running water through the center of the claim.

Sounds like a great claim right?

... It's still unclaimed since the original 1893 claim was closed!

Guess what the next Special Report is going to cover? Yep old closed claims still open to location.

We are still working out the details but we hope to be able to send this report out to Claims Advantage members by the end of the week.

In the meantime we will be working through the latest BLM database download tomorrow to send members the first of this months two Closed Claims Reports. These Closed Claims Reports are time based comparisons to past database downloads so you won't be able to get this updated information from the LR2000.

Barry