mh9162013

6 minutes ago, CPT_GhostLight said:

Hmmm... a hybrid Nox and CTX maybe?

That's what it looks like to me.

I loved my E-Trac, but it killed my shoulder. I can't imagine an Equinox with the target ID accuracy (for silver, at least) of an FBS II machine...

Great post, thanks for sharing.

Hypothetical question for you: If the Equinox 600 had vibration and waterproofness that equaled what the Legend offered, would you still choose the Legend over the 600?

30 minutes ago, Tahoegold said:

The only thing they say is to use a 2amp charger. Nothimg about storage, break in, or not running it all the way down. So, There really was a need for me in my mind to gather a little more info. I only am familiar with Nimh batteries. So, seems I would have had bad habits for the Lipo.

Those definitely benefit from break-ins...

24 minutes ago, Tahoegold said:

I won't trash the battery 1st thing! 

If you followed a company's recommendations, the only way this could happen is if there's a defect with the product. 

31 minutes ago, Tahoegold said:

The guy I quoted gave results after this process showing it lowered the internal resistance. Also, Lipo battery makers have recommended a break in period for some reason.

After break in I will use a 2amp charger. However, I wonder, you say that because of the battery size, a 2amp should charge ot in 1.5hrs? So, they must have some kind of controller inside limiting the input. I'm also thinking, if RC batteries are Lipo and guys do this for them to reduce resistance, why not this Lipo battery?

   Either way, It seems this process won't do any harm to the battery. And, yes, it's just a little hobby fun too. I can't detect due to weather. I'm stuck at home for a few days and this gives me something to stave off the cabin fever! Thanks again! TG

More power to ya! 

And yes, I do think there's something in the charger or connected to the battery that's limiting the current sent to the battery.

You talk about R/C hobbyists doing these things to reduce internal resistance. But that's not the same thing as increasing a battery's life span. As PimentoUK already mentioned, these R/C applications require top performance where drivers are willing to sacrifice a battery's longevity to get a few extra mahs and tenths of a volt from their battery packs. So what they're doing may not necessarily lead to a longer battery life for low-drain applications like metal detecting.

Lithium batteries might benefit from being broken in. But I don't know what that benefit is. Also, even if that benefit relates to increasing cell life, I don't know what the exact procedure needs to be. For example, assuming your "partially charge, then rest..." method increases cell life, how do you know how long the rest and charge periods need to be? I assume you're making educated guesses, so there's no way to confirm that any benefits you're gaining are outweighing the drawbacks.

23 minutes ago, Tahoegold said:

Ok, so I've simplified this info. Here's the steps without the technical wording:

 

1) Charge the first time with a 1amp charger until full (not the recomended 2amp). Unplug charger, Allow battery to rest and settle for 20-30min. Then charge again to top off. Once 2nd charge is complete, unplug charger and let it rest 4-12hrs. LiPo MUST be fully charged, topped off, and allowed to settle in a environment with standard room temperature of 70-80°F.

2) Turn on detector and maybe plug in head phones or turn volume down to quiet the machine. Discharge to 80%, unplug charger and let battery rest for 20-30min, then resume discharge to 40%. Unplug charger and let battery rest for 4-12hrs.

3) Slowly charge to 100% again,  unplug and allow 30 mins to settle, re-run charge then unplug and allow 4-12 hrs. rest.

4) This time, discharge more than step 2. Discharge to 60%. Unplug, let rest for 30 min, then resume discharge to 40%.

5) Slow charge again until full. Unplug and let rest 30min then charge again to top off. Unplug, let rest 4-12 hrs.

6) Discharge to 40%. Let rest 30 min. Then discharge again, turn on detector, the power meter should have increased a little, let it run run until back down to 40%. Unplug and Let rest 4-12 hrs.

7) Slow charge to full, unplug, let rest 30 min, then charge again to top off. Let rest 4-12hrs

😎 After resting for 4-12hrs you can discharge to 40-60% for proper storage. When it's time to use the detector again, use the same slow charging method, allow to settle 30 min, then re-run charge to top off.

Do this process 3-5 times. And after that, you can use the 2amp charger recomended in the Notka/Makro Simplex+ user manual.

 leaving a LiPo fully charged for a few hours at a time does no harm to it. Usually, once you leave a LiPo fully charged or discharged for about 48-72 hours, THEN you will begin to see slight degredation in the life of the battery. If you leave it fully charged for weeks or a month (a mistake often made by people new to the hobby) then that might be enough to finally seriously damage or kill the battery. If leaving a LiPo fully charged for just a few hours won't hurt them.

Finally never charge when the battery has beel cooled to 32°F/0°C or heated to temperatures over 95°F/ 35°C

Don’t “store” the detector for prolonged periods (several weeks or months) with a fully charged battery.  Store it with the battery at 80% or less.  Don’t need to worry about this for overnight storage or weekly/bi-weekly usage.

 

 

In my opinion, most of that is necessary and it might even shorten the overall life of the battery.

I can MAYBE see using the 1amp charger for the first few charges to help with the "break in," but I'd be surprised if that makes a difference. Also, in my experience and from what I've read, the life of a lithium is primarily dependent on the number of charge cycles. This assumes you're not charging or discharging it at extreme temps or at extreme rates (1C or greater).

So it's my thought that all this "unplug and rest...then plug in" will actually hurt the battery more than it will help. I could be wrong, but that's my opinion.

You imply this can be done with the 1amp charger, but are you sure that makes a difference? Most consumer chargers without any adjustability will only give what the device/battery can take. For instance, if you have a 10watt USB charger for phones, but a phone and its battery are designed to be charged at a rate of 500ma, then that USB charger effectively becomes a 2.5watt charger when plugged into that phone.

I don't know how N/M's chargers work, but I imagine they work on a similar principle where the charger only gives the battery what the battery is willing to accept. I guess it's possible the Simplex's battery is designed to accept a charge at a 2amp rate, but I doubt it, as the battery is rated as having a 2,300 mah capacity. This would mean the battery can be fully charged (from empty) is less than 1.5 hours. This is NOT good for the long-term health of a rechargeable lithium battery. 

All of this to say, I don't think switching between a 1amp and 2amp charger will make a difference in the current sent to the Simplex's battery.

So here's what I would do: just follow N/M's recommendations. 

If doing the above is enjoyable for you, knock yourself out! You bought the Simplex to have fun with and if that's fun for you, I'm not one to judge. But if you're doing it ONLY to help your battery last longer, I'd be surprised if you're accomplishing those results.

30 minutes ago, Tahoegold said:

Thank you gentleman,

   This helps! Just to make a note about my doing this. Yes, it may seem this is over thinking this or worrying too much about it. However, this is my hobbie. It's actually fun to learn about all the little details for me. And, knowing I'm doing the very best I can is satisfying for me. It takes my mind off of things for a while when I get into the nuts and bolts of this hobby.

   Also, it's nice to know this info. as there's so little about this process. I didnt know about the 40% low discharge on the first 5 cycles. That is good to know.

   You see, this process, once finished will let me feel like I've done something to keep my gear in top shape going forward. Regardless if it is overkill or something, it's just fun for me and I appreciate your sharing your experience and expertise! TG

I completely understand. I get the desire to figure things out and how some of the "maintenance tasks" associated with a hobby can be part of the fun. For example, one reason I enjoy metal detecting is that it gives me an excuse to play with my batteries (which are almost all serial numbered by me so I can keep track of their histories). 

All that being said, it's usually best to follow a manufacturer's guidelines as to how to charge and maintain their batteries. This doesn't mean they're 100% right in 100% of situations. But it's safe to assume that it's a good "general rule of thumb" that balances out various competing interests (long run time, long-term health of the battery, convenience, etc.).

Now, if you learn of something that says a company's recommendations on how to charge or store a battery are wrong (as well as the reason why that company is spreading incorrect information), but all means let us know! But I'm not aware of any of that information currently existing with the major metal detecting companies.

4 hours ago, Skookum said:

I keep thinking the next level of MF is going to come from increases in processing power that allow application of AI algorithms within the machine.  What if a processor analyzes how a target responds to multiple frequencies or technologies at the same time and then it extrapolates that information to identify other targets at your location?  No doubt this already happens in R&D labs, but could there be fresh gains having the process occur in real-time, on the ground?  Perhaps, its another potentially cool application of artificial intelligence.

I've had similar thoughts.

For example why can't the metal detector be programmed for the user to tell the machine what was found? After the user does this enough, the detector will have "learned" how to identfy targets in the ground based on what it was detecting and what was ultimately dug up.

It can be limited to just American coins, for instance. Let's say a user (I'm gonna used Minelab's MIQ scale here) finds a target that rings up as a 25 and is 4 inches down. The user thinks it might be a copper penny. The user carefully digs it and notes how deep it was, its orientation in the soil (if that's possible to discern...it sometimes is when the coin is neatly stuck to the side or bottom of the plug) and what the object actually was.

So in my hypothetical, it turns out to be a 2004 Zincoln, not a copper penny. The detector will make a "mental note" of the find and several variables that corresponded with it (including the GPS coords of the find). If a user is willing to take the time to teach its detector to do this, the machine would be pretty darn good after just a dozen or so digs in the same general location.

The problem I see with this approach is threefold. First, it requires a lot of time and patience. Second, there's the problem of "garbage in, garbage out." If the user is wrong in the data it gives the machine (gives the wrong depth of the coin, for instance, when the user swings the coil higher off the ground than is recommended), then the detector can't properly learn. Third, you're basically teaching a machine to do what a neurotypical human being who's really into metal detecting is doing anyways. Basically, this hypothetical machine isn't just a metal detector, but a notetaker and pattern finder. But humans are already pretty good at seeing patterns. They're just lousy with memory and tend to be lazy in their habits. So it's too easy for them to incorrectly remember: the find, the settings used and the ground conditions at that time.

A simpler process would just be to use the machine, tell the machine to note a given signal, then after digging it up, simply telling the machine if it was a "good" or "bad" target. This boolean "process" could also teach the detector about what's a potential good find or not. For coin shooters (gven how standardized the desired targets tend to be), this could be pretty effective. I think in its ideal form, it would still give a tone and VDI like any other detector, but it would have a "confidence bar" to go along with it. It's this confidence bar that would be constantly altered as the machine learns from the user.

Presumably the price hikes are due to inflation, supply-chain and COVID-related pressures. But I agree that there's probably more going on, like the psycological effect it would have on potential customers or mainting a particular "image" with a certain price level.

I think Garrett's price hike is especially atrocious. I don't care if their costs of production have gone up...their machines were already overpriced by 50-200%. So these higher costs of production are just "economic karma" in my opinion.

28 minutes ago, ☠ Cipher said:

Minelab’s ads are just ok. The worst ads have been Nokta Makros. Not only bad, but cringeworthy. Simplex and Legend take the cake for worst ads for a metal detector I’ve ever seen. Of course, when they are especially bad and corny they stick in your head nonetheless. 

I know it's subjective, but in my opinion, Minelab, Garrett and N/M all have equally cringeworthy or eyeroll-y marketing videos.

1 hour ago, Cal_Cobra said:

We'll there's this 🤔 

Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot is that thing?!

1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Why don’t they make more rotary phones? Always worked, never needed an update, or replacement every few years, and best of all, never got lost! 

I'm currently looking for one that I can get for cheap just so I can use it as my over-sized fidget toy. Those things are so fun to use...

If all I hunted were tot lots and mild soils, I think my detector of choice might be a Tesoro. Those knobs are fun to use, I won't deny that.

Tesoros are like metal detectors and fidget toys built into a single device.

Probably because it's a niche type of tech in a hobby with an already low number of potential customers.

4 minutes ago, cjc said:

The sense I get is that these ultra light machines try to substitute digital wizardry for pure processing power. 

Are you saying that's a bad thing?

18 hours ago, phrunt said:

The Equinox is an entirely different animal, the CTX really shines on deep silver, in my opinion in my soil destroys the Equinox on deep silver, although prior to owning the CTX I thought the Equinox was the greatest machine on deep silver as compared to my others it was king, mainly because of it's ability to ID silver deeper than my other detectors, until the CTX came along to my collection and did an even better job of it.

The Equinox is more of an all round detector, it can do it all, while the CTX can do most things for me it's a deep silver hunter, or even a superior coin machine overall and I do love target trace and it's enhanced ID's over the Nox.

Agreed.

When I use my E-Trac and it gives me that nice high-tone and Fe:Co shows me that 13:47 or so signal, it's safe to assume it's a clad or silver dime. Or it might be a copper penny. But it's unlikely to be trash. But I get that 24-28 on my Equinox? It could be anything from aluminum trash to a piece of iron to a silver dime.

So yeah, a CTX 4040 v. Equinox 1000? Assuming they cost and weigh the same (they probably won't, I know), I'd use the former.

I think FBS/FBS2's ability to better ID silver coins is a given (compared to MIQ). The problem is the sluggishness of the FBS/FBS2 machines, in terms of both weight and recovery speed (compared to the Equinox).

Honestly, I can live with the slower recovery speed of the E-Trac. But that weight...my shoulder now has what seems like a bit of soreness that hasn't gone away since I first used the E-Trac for several hours.

My shoulder would get sore when using the AT Max or Vanquish 540. But after a day or 2, it went back to normal. But ever since I used the E-Trac, I have a chronic shoulder problem. Ugh.

Sweet snag!

1 hour ago, stevejhgla said:

The equinox IDs targets just out of range as iron. 

How is that possible? If the Equinox can't detect a target, how does it know it's there, let alone know to give it a particular ID # or tone?

Or are you saying that the Equinox will lower a VDI or tone for a target it can detect, but is at the limits of its range? 

I think I saw that video...it was Phil who found that silver Merc, right? A one way tone and a blanking threshold the other way (swing direction)?

When you run a threshold, you'll hear a constant hum. When your threshold breaks (or blanks), you hear silence. This occurs when your detector detetects something, but it's something you discriminated out. Some people like to hunt this way, as it helps you catch those deeper or partially masked targets.

7 minutes ago, CPT_GhostLight said:

I think the phone detector is still a little way out there yet.

Yeah, it seems that way. I think another factor is that so many people get new phones every few years (if not every year).

50 minutes ago, ☠ Cipher said:

According to Daniel, whose been testing it for a while for his magazine in the UK, there have been no updates to the machine, nor to any the backers hold, nor have they fulfilled their obligations to the remainder of backers. I agree that this could hurt the reputation of Serious Detecting once they reach users hands. From what I gather they lack any serious depth, yet chatter away, and can’t be properly ground balanced. The GB function seems not to work at all. The depth people are getting is not what was promised, but more akin to a bounty Hunter Gold Digger. Since this happened after a necessary hardware change, it’s even more concerning that a complete overhaul is needed. Also concerning is that the phone grip has been dropping peoples phones and the bad ergonomic design can be felt straight away.

Any mention of Bluetooth lag?

Oh, and I just saw that this is made in the Ukraine. So there could be support or supply issues (understably so) given the ongoing situation there.

6 minutes ago, kac said:

Spec's don't look bad, curious on performance and control features.

https://www.seriousdetecting.com/product/air-metal-detector-the-smart-bluetooth-metal-detector/?goal=0_0b451a6847-e8b7bd7836-159565445&mc_cid=e8b7bd7836&mc_eid=1b80072cca

So the wireless comes through bluetooth tech in the phone? Didn't see anything about apt LL or other low latency tech being used, though.

13 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

Yes.  NM decided not to put a mineralization meter on Legend.  Perhaps a future add but if you look at the screen layout, there really isn’t any spare room.

When ground balancing the Legend, will it give some sort of "value" like the AT Max or Equinox does? I understand this isn't an actual measurement of ground conditions, but would allow some sort of objective comparison between people using Legend units.

43 minutes ago, strick said:

My main requirement for any pin pointer is that you must be able to grab it out of the holster and be able feel the on/off button without looking at the pinpointer ...that way you don't have to take your eyes off the target in the ground. 

strick

That's a good requirement.

I think getting a pinpointer that turns on quickly and/or can stay without setting off a lost alarm are also underrated features.