cjc

With all these multi FQ machines I've  come round to the fact that the lower FQ settings such as B2 and P1 do give you a much more stable platform to work with.  This  alllows for open screen or higher Sens. Also much better with the big coils.  You pay a price for the hair trigger micro  gold capability especially where there is any black sand at all.  I only run them when Im specifically looking for a chain.

cjc

On 9/18/2023 at 9:14 AM, Joe Beechnut OBN said:

I did a compare of the Whites Surfmaster TDI vs The AQ Limited, and the TDI had the 14.8 battery upgrade. The AQ was a good 3+ inches deeper on all targets tested. After using both you can tell the AQ is nothing more than a TDI on steroids. Now the TDI does run a lot smoother and I would say more adaptable to all locations.

Better on the 22k as well.  I think that a TDI Pro might have the edge though--just that with the coil submerged it has to be detuned so much that any advantage is  lost.  TDI  lacks a SAT control.

cjc

This is a very smooth running and processing detector.  In a way it's like the Manticore in that when you  have some basic skills to work with these detectors will give you  a lot of information.  With both  the key is to listen for peaked souding responses.  This means the machine is processing something within it's ideal, optimized range ("clean metal" with the Manti).  "Emenating" responsed (ones  that are connected to the ground more) such as a hairpin don't re-acquire in  the same consistent way.  A target that's blended with the ground like a cap is a much wider response.  (SAT notwithstanding). got this one yesterday  down deep its 18k, 10.1 grams.  

cjc

Your'e welcome.

cjc

the relationship between detector, ground and targets is  always a tradeoff.  when you change how the machine reponds to iron, tihis  affects how it responds to alloys.  The relationship between iron, ground  and targets is an alloy in effect. just as when the F2 was added to the NOX there is  a downside in how the machine reaches down into mineralized ground.  overalll, the update looks good and if you chose to work with the whole detector (instead of looking for quick push button fixes) a way can  be found to balance out these effects. 

cjc

10/ Ratchet Pinpoint, Sizing and “Constancy”

Ratchet Pinpointing takes your signal down in size with each subsequent coil pass.  This is aimed at localizing responses down to a small, manageable dig area.  At the same time, information is lost as to the target’s actual physical size.  Here’s how to offset this:  Always begin your Pinpoint pass the same distance from what your Discriminate passes have shown to be the centre of the signal.   Move the coil off about 8 or 10 inches and smoothly, evenly back in.  This way you have created a “constant.”  By a “constant” I mean a single, certain piece of information against which others can now be compared.  So against this “constant” a larger target will give a loud, high pitched tone.  Smaller targets will be weaker, lower pitched tones.  The problem with Ratchet Pinpointing though is that very weak signals may disappear altogether.  This will require a second attempt with a closer initial Pinpointing pass.  After about three sweeps over a target the size begins to reduce. You can then choose to dig or start the process again for a clearer picture. 

If you just begin your Pinpoint / sizing process from a random distance from the signal, you get random information.

This is a lot like correlation where unless you begin with a single “constant” signal feature (such as your accurate interpretation of how far from the coil a signal is based upon the tone) all the other information that you gather (depth meter reading for example) is worthless.  This is a very valuable bit of information for anyone wanting to improve their accuracy with the Manticore.

(A target that disappears when you do your controlled Pinpoint press can also be big iron--overwhelming the machine so that when you move the coil in--it’s already de-tuned.  Back the coil off a little further and sweep in to confirm the big iron target). 

Ratchet pinpointing can also help you identify iron in that as the signal field weakens with each coil pass the inconsistency of these signals becomes more obvious.  You will notice that there is no “peaked” centre in the response as the ratchet-down begins and the target now appears to “move.” This is similar to the old Sovereign-hunter’s trick of backing the Sensitivity off a bit to identify iron falses.  Without the added “fullness” that a high gain setting gives there is more detail as to signal quality.

You can also alternate between Pinpoint and Discriminate, using passes that begin at a set distance from the target to get accurate, “baselined” information on its size, strength and consistency.   These add up to knowing the location.  For example when a response is weak and “bitty,” this indicates something small that will probably not give a proper depth reading.

It’s important to note that the machine is reducing your signal size on two fronts: In Pinpoint mode, the Ratchet is taking your target down to be dug.  Also, in Discriminate, (as touched upon earlier) with each subsequent coil pass, the machine’s frequencies are “boiling down” your response as the frequencies “lock in.”  This gives the impression of a small, discrete object.  This is especially true of “mixed” type signals (ferrous and non-ferrous) as the “random,” corroded part is progressively cut out.  This is why it’s a good method to have a “light touch” and not be afraid to remove the coil from the signal field so as not be drawn into thinking that your target is smaller and cleaner than it is.  A quick jump into Pinpoint mode (two or three passes) keeps the sizing information accurate as well. 

In either mode a controlled, standardized length of “ID-ing’ pass is your best weapon.

 From: "The Minelab Manticore: Tips, Tricks and Settings" by Clive James Clynick

3/ Understanding the Heavily Processed Signal 

A heavily processed signal also affects target sounds.  Everything is made to sound more the same.  It’s actually surprising how with the Manticore, when you open up the Ferrous Limits, some spikes and iron come in smooth and “sanitized” just as would a coin or other round small non-ferrous target. 

The relationship between signal tone and threshold is also interesting.  Anything that does not go into this processed “mold” of a response is forced into the background so you have this electronic “cut-off” of a target sound--rather than more of a full, complete dying out of the tone.  This is something to learn to listen for when making quick determinations on iron.

Try this test:

Over normal ground, run the Sensitivity up into the “red” zone--”30+.”  Notice how threshold and target sounds blend together into a series of “clipped” sounding tones.  This is the machine attempting to make sense of basically “too much information” by “flattening” everything out.  In a sense this is how all multi frequency machine process the incoming chaos of these frequencies--by bringing everything down into a heavily controlled threshold.  It’s important to understand that these machines can lose depth and sensitivity without losing threshold.  I disagree with the manual’s instructions to run the Sensitivity “just (down) enough that the false signals disappear” in that this ignores the factor of just how well your actual target sounds are coming though.  At a lower setting there is also more information available in the signal tone.  There is also less chance of overrunning targets due to sweep speed error--something that’s easier to do with the “all or nothing” character of a heavily processed signal.

Understanding what the audio is telling you is the key to learning to hear how the Manticore is performing in relation to the conditions.  With the Equinox the audio had this funny kind of “inverse” quality as this digital reduction took place--even good target sounds were almost delayed by the intense processing taking place.  The “problems” with what was under the coil were all pushed into the sound of the “ramp up / ramp down.”  When the machine was overwhelmed by this processing task due to conditions or tuning error--all targets sounded weak and flimsy--pulled down into this “white noise” threshold.   As someone who runs multiple detectors--coming back to the Equinox was an adjustment every time because of this odd “softness” and latency in the signal tone.  With a larger coil in salt water this “struggling” was even more evident as the signal tone took on this “chattery” hard-to-hear-though processing sound.  The contrast between the two detectors is very obvious as the Manticore handles challenging environments extremely well-with stable audio and full, much more robust signal tones.  At the same time--it’s not invincible--the same limitations and characteristics apply.

The point is that it’s important to understand how machines like the “Nox” and Manticore process and sound off on what is under the coil.  Both are great detectors but the Manticore seems to accomplish this task much more effectively.  However, with either there are consequences to all this processing in that it makes for a detector that is electronically removed from the ground.  You could say that you are hearing something of  a “proxy.” This makes it harder to hear “what’s going on” and to tune accordingly.  The signs that you have set the Sensitivity too high (for example) on this type of a detector are not that obvious and take some practice to recognize. (More on this later).

From: "The Minelab Manticore: Tips, Tricks and Settings" by Clive James Clynick (2023)

On 6/15/2023 at 5:45 PM, TampaBayBrad said:

That's what I said too. But if I do decide to download the update, I will try the red #'s and see if I like it or if it annoys me since I'm already used to the red line.

It actually is annoying but has  the potential of giving non-ferrous alerts in dense iron in that we now have a positive and a negative.   Hate to say it but any keen "studen't of the game" shoudln't need a flashing red light to tell iron.  😆

cjc

On 6/17/2023 at 2:04 AM, phrunt said:

Wonder how much of it was the computers fault and nothing to do with the update or detector, A breeze for me, both headphones and detector updated in about 5 mins, it took me longer to find my headphones than do the updates, I'd never used them, probably never will.

You're lucky it wasn't a Legend, a failed update bricks the detector, Minelab's firmware is different, unusual really, flashing failing is normally very bad news, Minelab have done a great thing with their firmware, it's more software being copied on than firmware being flashed which is so much safer.

good software resting on  dodgey interface surfaces...😆

On 6/15/2023 at 6:17 PM, cuniagau said:

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

After 3 failed attempts, the Manticore itself updated.

 After downloading the Ml 105 update to three different computers (multiple times each), and trying 4 different cables and jiggling the hell out of those cables to get a connection, I finally succeeded in getting the INSTALL prompt.  First attempt-the prompt disappeared.  The second attempt-it got to 1%.  Third attempt-it got to 2%  (hey, at least it was headway!!!)  Fourth attempt-it made it all the way to 13%.  Fifth attempt-it made it to 22%.  Sixth attempt-it made it all the to 100%!!!  I don't give up easily but was awfully close on this one.  I think I was holding my breath the whole time on the sixth attempt.  When I say "attempt", I am referring only to the times that I got an INSTALL prompt.  In all, probably close to 50 tries on downloads, cable connection attempts, and the all important "jiggling" of the USB connectors.  

If at first you don't succeed-jiggle the hell out of the USB and expect different results.  

(This is a true story and probably under embellished if anything.) 

It's all in the jiggle...

cjc

39 minutes ago, phrunt said:

Gold mode seems improved to me on testing so far, need a lot more time on it but looking promising of matching or possibly exceeding the Nox 11" with the Manticore 11" on tiny gold.

I am hoping this line below means they have improved ID stability without wanting to admit they screwed it up, common thing software coders do, "general improvements" even Nokta do it with the Legend with their latest update having this line, 12. General improvements have been implemented.

and for the Manticore update

General Stability Enhancements: Including improvements to Beach Mode Ground balance on dry sand, Search Mode default settings, wireless audio connection stability improvements and more.

🙂

It will be interesting what the headphone update does, I hadn't heard of anyone having connection problems or drop outs so they felt the need to change something on the headphones.

 

at first blush  this means  that the "Beach Low conductor mode\s preset Recovery Speed has  been brought up to 4 from 3.  It was the lowest and  therefore the least stable.  

7 hours ago, OCBeepDigger said:

Simple, flawless, installs on both the Manticore and the ML 105 headphones... now let's play! 😉

I'll say  this about the install.  If it shows "connect  the device" (even though the charge light is  flashing), wiggle the jack around and watch for it to kick in.  Not the best charge / interface surfaces to work with on this type of thing. cjc

The sense I get is that with a machine that needs to settle down multiple FQ's and a lot of power, the signal needs to be heavily processed / modultated.  Everything is "brought down." You are hearing more of a proxy. This makes iron falses sound not too far from a good signal--even clean sometimes.  A way had to be found to make this machine more accessable to newer hunters who  are getting fooled by spikes and other iron .  An "Enhanced" style audio feature (stabilizer)  acts to make them more distinguishable.  My one problem with"Enhanced " is that it makes everything sound more the same--the fullness and detail of the audio is lost. This is kind of a re -purposing.  One change I did suggest in my book was a more accessable Recovery Speed in that this is such a critical adjustment  in obtaining a balanced signal.  I also like that the "dual indication ie red / black" red iron indicator (instead of just the red line) will help us to narrow in on non-ferrous targets in dense iron.  Who knows it might even be faster / more sensitive than the audio.  We used to do this with the DFX--look for numbers flashing on the screen that the audio circuit would not pick up on....I will be incorporating some notes on this upgrade into the new book as I  test it more and see what others think. cjc

On 5/22/2023 at 7:55 PM, Medina said:

the ONLY reason I bought the manti, the ctx was simply too heavy for 4 or 5 hour hunts... 

I'm sure we'll  all learn the manti, but right now, the CTX stomps it (my hands, my dirt, my spots)

I'm starting to see glimpses of hope,  granted an aluminum nail head...is an aluminum nail head...but when you find it in rust and nails at 7ish 8ish" down

.....certainly gotta give cred where cred is due

Its a very tough call  both are superb processors.  Manti has that kick ass ratio though on spike to target.  CTX lets you bring in more juice overall though before it gets noisy, Manti needs a big reject block (or bordered FL grid like Neil's) to allow more of the Sens to be run.  Just being able to tune the speed is a huge deal too. 

cjc

the graph is a great feature soon as I saw one on the (UK) Golden Mask I knew they were the "next big thing" At the same time it's not a stand alone but works well to round out the picture of what that audio and some coil testing are telling you.  this is a machine that encourages an unhealthy over reliance on tech.  stick with your sold old basic and the whole package is unstoppable. 

cjc 

On 5/8/2023 at 10:09 PM, Medina said:

this one, several times, has surprised me how it easily pulls a tiny thing from waaaay down deep. deeper than the 800... and.. starting to think its beating the ctx

certainly processing   the #$%@ out of the CTX.

On 4/27/2023 at 1:19 PM, Bill (S. CA) said:

Loren provides a very interesting assessment of the Manticore after 100 hours of use:

 

"Highly demanding, challenging" for hunters who think they can use a machine this powerful in iron by ear (or even  by meter / graph) --that is with no basic skills.  Just testing wide / narrow tells you a lot of the spikes. I was taught to look for "sets" of signal  characteristics.  Anything else is the "tail wagging the dog."  If you are  hoping for "push button detecting" ya, you're going to have problems.  If you take a second to examine the relationship between the ground and your signals the Manticore's tech forms part of a formidable ID package.  It's like we have this bunch of "technicians" acting like they have a faulty cell phone in their hands...

cjc

On 4/4/2023 at 6:07 PM, UtahRich said:

Appreciate the feedback Clive. After an initial bright start with my Manticore during a winter pause, I've since been staring out my windows watching the eternal winter in progress. By the looks of it, the snow isn't going to stop until the entire Western United States is under 100' of snow and the woolly mammoths have moved back in. My manticore outings are going to have to be road trips for the foreseeable future.

I still haven't heard any positive information about Minelab getting the accessory coils to market for the Manticore. I really don't get this. Are they afraid of having accessory coils available at introduction for some reason? Are there valid reasons that aren't coming to my mind for having everybody wait? Other than testing the patience and dedication of your customers? I experienced the same thing when the 800 was introduced.  Waited for about a year or so. Perplexing for sure. Forces my hand to take my 800 with the 11" and 6" coils and leave the Manticore home. 

UtahRich

 

I think that this detector will do well with the big coil this is where the CTX and NOX fell short just not enough in the tank...certainly not in salt.  Could also be the high bias though still testing...

cjc

I was asked for a review on the Manticore:

I'll say this: There are a lot of machines around that are promoted as having "fast process". The Manticore also has "fast process" but it also has "depth of process".--call it "thoroughness." This is what all that advertised power is doing. What this means is that it can "go around / through things" such as viscosity in ground ie black sand, fast salt water, iron or other alloyed targets, a reject block, or even it's own speed for example. Very impressive in this respect. At the same time it's still limited by simple physics so some of its Sensitivity is hard to deploy. I like Neils idea of stacking all the filters ie edge "firewalls" in the FE Limits plus segmented audio plus All Tones. The processing is certainly better than the NOX and this is evident from how it does not need that heavily digitized slightly latent response (Prospecting mode-ish) The Mcore sounds a lot more like the CTX and processes at a simiilar level with Multi IQ acting to stabilize it around iron. Also a superb iron masking "ratio" it hits small coins with a big spike in the hole --never seen that before. I have a few notes and may publish something eventually but still a lot to learn. cjc

On 3/14/2023 at 6:02 PM, Airtemisa said:

Clive, I use Nox since 2018. I detect beaches and diving, runing always in all metal, 2 tones, use crosscheck, and some other skills, as low sensitivity. But I would like to learn MORE, and a review of the basics, cause I may lack in some points.

To buy your 3 NOX books is enough for me... which one would you recommend me specifically? 😘

Thanks!

I would recomend the first two and if that information proves to be of value, the third one.  I also hunt in two tone--just gives more information.  There's a lot of good information in all three I ship three as two FYI.  My fave of the three is "Advanced Guide."

Thanks for your interest in my books, Airtemisa.

clivesgoldpage.com 

I will give that a try. 

c

...and a rock. looks to be about 1 ct likley Zales or something....this detector is a great edge machine keeps you off anything corroded while others are getting bogged down with those signals. Wish the low conductor mode ran in salt though--it's very clean and sharp.  The Surf is not bad either though.  Probably a better audio response in the All Tones than anything to date--those alloys scream. There's  also a "soft" sound to gold.

Im in DR the massive hotel wi fi signal kills the machine--almost zero response.

Shame just where I need it.

cjc

On 3/11/2023 at 4:48 PM, canslawhero said:

'rusted foreign coins', Canadian or Mexican?

all types mostly Russian.  Just digging only "12 line' knocks out a lot of  them.

c