Bill (S. CA)

You make a very valid point, Steve, about the Big 5 being reduced to the Big 3.  Despite all of us wishing something different, First Texas is no longer a player.  Garrett continues to be mystifying.  The Apex seemed like a first step into multi-frequency but whatever momentum was generated by it is long gone.  They clearly have the R & D muscle since they developed the Axiom to come up with something innovative.  Hard to anticipate what is next for them.

Nokta is another company that puzzles me.  Yes, the Legend is a good detector.  But it was designed to match/exceed the Equinox 800.  Since the Legend all i see from them is a continuing release of low-to-mid level detectors, so many i don't even know what makes each one different.  For me, Nokta has to take a shot at something new to move the needle, like XP did.  Otherwise i think they may be seen as just a copycat company, only trying to release models that compete with older detectors.  That would be a shame since I admire their tenacity and customer service.

That leaves us with Minelab and XP.  The current crop of Minelab detectors (900 and Manticore) feel like filler detectors to me.  By this I mean that they have tweaked their current platform while finalizing their next technology release.  Historically this has been their pattern.

XP is the company that really intrigues me.  The Deus II was such a surprise that one has to wonder if XP has a similar big bang to release sometime next year.

Then again, what do I know?  I've been hunting with a Tesore Sidewinder for the last two months!

Bill 

A very interesting topic, Steve, and I agree with your assessment of the various YouTubers and air testers.

I wrote field tests for Western and Eastern Treasures for well over a decade.  I also did field tests for Lost Treasure and even Kellyco when Stu was alive.  I never did the irrelevant air tests that have now become an unfortunate standard.  The only air testing that I ever made us of was to learn target response.  Monte's nail board test interested me but I never paid much mind to it in terms of the real world.  To me, a "field" test means to actually test it out in the field.  Though the era of published field tests is pretty much over, I still apply that same standard to any new detector that I try out.

Let me share a very short story from several years ago that was sort of a precursor to all of the woodblock nonsense tests that we see today.  I was working under an NDA for a detector manufacturer and was asked to evaluate a new model.  According to the company, it had been signed off on by all of their testers but they still wanted me try it out to see if they missed anything.

Well I did.  It had one major problem.  It didn't work.  Inland it could not handle trash.  On the beach it would false like a microwave timer on crack.  You couldn't identify good targets from bad at all.   When I told them this they were shocked and asked for a few days to look into the problem.  A  week later they got back to me and this was their confused response (and I quote): "We are very confused.  It worked perfectly in the lab."

Fast forwarding today, I would highly recommend paying attention to all of the YouTube air tests the next time you hunt a vast expanse of Styrofoam or wood blocks. 

Bill

Just curious if any of you folks still use a concentric coil and if you do, when and why versus a DD.   I picked up a Tesoro Sidewinder with the 8" concentric coil a short while back and did some parking hunting with it last week. It did remarkably well.  Yes, I did dig more trash than I would with my Legend or Equinox 800, but the Tesoro did reward me with a good pocket full of clad and a shallow wheatie.  I had forgotten how easy it was to pinpoint with a concentric coil.  And the detector was really fun to use.  No updates to install, no menus to trudge through.  Don't know if I will use it a lot but it was a nice change of pace.

Bill

Jeff,

That was an enjoyable post of yours and frankly I find the subject of perceived depth loss to be amusing, not sad.  Before I get to why I say this, let me state this based on 25+ yeas of field testing and evaluating prototypes for metal detector companies.

It is baloney.  Period. Yes, there can be lost depth issues early on in prototyping and testing metal detectors.  But once the software is locked?  Not a chance.  The minor tweaks are just that.

Now why do I say this?  Well there are a lot of reasons, some of which you touched on.  There are others, for instance:

1. People want to play "gotcha" to show how smart and savvy they are about metal detectors.
2. They want to draw more attention to their YouTube Channels.
3. They want more friends on Facebook.
4. They are just plain dumb.

But for me, the biggest reason you hear this lost depth deal coming up continually is that inherently, most metal detectorists are terribly insecure about their detectors.  They always have to know what settings you are using, even though you live in an entirely different area.  They are constantly searching for the one detector that will do it all and are discouraged that it doesn't exist.  They are consumed with the idea that they are missing good targets,  insisting on searching in all metal in trashed-filed parks so they don't miss the "carpet of gold" that is hidden below the layer of foil and tabs.  And God forbid, the minute they do an update, they get scared when they hit a target that doesn't sound right, or they miss a target that their buddy hit. Or they don't hit a target because their detector is set up wrong.  OMIGOD, they exclaim  "I've lost depth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Give me a break.

Want another example?  You know the new Nokta pinpointer?  Guys are acting like it is going to be a game changer for them and can't wait to get one.  Uh, news flash:  IT'S A PINPOINTER.  Last I checked, you find the target with a metal detector and then if necessary, use the pinpointer for recovery.  Watch Nokta get hammered for lost depth on a pinpointer.  It's coming...

Anyway, don't be sad, Jeff.  As you said, these new detectors are marvelous machines.  They are so superior to detectors of just a few years ago it isn't funny. So laugh the next time a self-anointed social media genius rips an update for lost depth.

Ready for the pun?  Here goes: how shallow of them.

Bill

His reaction is so genuine.  It's why we all indulge in this hobby of ours.

Thanks for posting.  Made my day.

Not to be a smart aleck but there must be a reason they use tractors instead of people to drag the beach.

I've used the Z-Lynk headphones on many different detectors and have never had a volume problem.  You should send them in to Garrett. 

That's really good to know, Jeff.  I don't recall anyone, including Nokta, mentioning that aspect of the F pattern in high iron situations.

As to the bottlecaps, I have to run it.  LA must be the bottlecap capital of the world there are so many!  With that being said, and it's just my experience, my 800 rejects bottlecaps much better than my Legend.  It's really no contest.

Jeff,

Always love your write ups.  I'm curious about a couple of things:

1.  Why don't you run any bottle cap rejection?  I will be honest, I have played with my Legend and the bottle cap rejection really doesn't do much so I keep it low.
2. "When I switched to the F (ferrous rejected) discrimination pattern along with having the iron filter setting on default 8, the 3 flagged targets that were copper and silver basically disappeared. "  Do you think if you ran in F and lowered the iron filter to a lower value you would have hit those targets?

Bill

I'm just curious as to how many folks actually use rubber tips to protect the ends of their pinpointers.  It seems they are everywhere now and are almost assumed to be a necessary item.  Personally I don't get it.  I have my original Garrett ProPointer from years ago and a Carrot and both have been used heavily.  The tips are scuffed from use but I'm never worn one out.  I know a lot of the newer generation seem to think that pinpointers are diggers and use them as such.  I use mine to pinpoint with, that's it.  Perhaps that's the reason mine have held up. 

Any thoughts on this? 

1 hour ago, midalake said:

Saw this older post. Unfortunately, Hurricane Hillary put a stop to our testing.  It will be a while before this testing might happen. 

Oh come on, what's so tough about hunting in a little rain...

Nice to have you back in the drink, Joe!  Cool ring.  Weird to not see the Excalibur>

Steve,

This is fascinating stuff.  I hope you can take us along on some of these hunts.  It sounds like a blast.

Steve,

I really admire your discipline with regard to thinning the herd.  Can't argue with any of your choices but I am curious about the DFX/Bigfoot combo.  With that large profile coil how do you navigate through the trash in the park?  Also, do you think that the DFX offers an advantage for park hunting in general or is it specific to using the Bigfoot? 

You might try contacting Keith Wills @ East Texas Metal Detectors.

https://www.brokendetector.com/

He knows the Red Baron well.  Keith tried to repair one that I sent him but he was unable to due to an issue with the power supply.

9 hours ago, phrunt said:

The Ultimate detector, pick you're favourite Minelab detector and it emulates it, CTX 3030 mode, Nox mode, Sovereign mode, Gold Monster mode etc, How cool would that be, with the Manticore screen they could display anything to do it 🙂

You aren't far off here, Phrunt.  I was involved in the development of the Etrac years ago with another very well-known U.S. detectorist.  We pitched the idea at the time to offer the Explorer platform in the Etrac so the user could select either one.  We were told it was possible but they did not pursue our idea at the time.

It may be just me but I think part of the problem is the rush that all manufacturers are in to get their products into social medial first.  Contrast this to Garrett, who had the good sense to wait until Steve signed off on the Axiom before it was released.  Nokta Makro is the classic example of the "rush to market" mentality.  The Legend was not ready to be released.  Now after so many updates it is proving itself to be a good detector.  But what did it cost their reputation with this flawed approach?

39 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

 

I am referencing Abenson's video without his permission to give you a visual/audio experience of what some of us are seeing with the performance of the Nox 900 and Manticore in moderate to high iron mineralization. I hope that is OK.

Using the 900 for almost 5 months in those conditions, the video from Andy shows much the same as I experienced. Now he is using full tones. Imagine using 2 tones and having to watch the numbers or using 5 tones with tone bins that are being constantly crossed over with these unstable target responses. Those jumpy numbers are not mostly being caused by EMI. Those are target responses that are being influenced by ground conditions.

Watch from the 1:20 mark to the 5:50 mark for a short video example of what many of us are talking about.

You can also skip over to the 9:30 mark and watch to the 14:50 mark and see the Equinox 900, Manticore and Deus 2 in action at a different, slightly less iron mineralized site on 5", 6" and 8" US dimes.

Better yet, just enjoy the whole video.

I would like to own an Equinox 900 or a Manticore. Right now, they would not offer an improvement over my Deus 2, Equinox 800 or even my Nokta Legend.

 

Glad you posted this, Jeff.  Makes me wonder who Minelab is giving the betas to for testing before release.  You and Abenson know what you are doing and you have both recognized the problems with these new detectors.

Thanks guys.  I'm on 1.11 but like Tometusns mine has done this since I got it.  It holds a good charge and has never run out on me so I think I'm inclined to let it be.

Mine never stops "stari-stepping" as you call it.  It just keeps doing that until you disconnect the detector.  Then it shows all bars and full charge.  Normal?   Something to be concerned about?  Or no big deal?

2 hours ago, midalake said:

What is your black sand content there????   Where I hunt, we are really going to test the Legends ability in black sand. 

When are you going to do your testing?  You have excellent knowledge of the Equinox at the beach so I'm very curious as to how in your view The Legend will stack up.

2 hours ago, midalake said:

What is your black sand content there????   Where I hunt, we are really going to test the Legends ability in black sand. 

It varies but I've really never had a problem with any of my multi's when I encounter it.

10 hours ago, midalake said:

If that Legend gets to the beach, I will consult to you Bill on some initial settings. Bottle caps is one item I never worry about.  It will be all about gold testing in the wet sand [especially chains] and how the detector handles the transition from wet sand to water. If it all works out, we should have the Nox 800 and 900. Deus2, Manticore and Legend!  Buckle>UP! 

I was hoping that you would chime in on this.  I do worry about bottlecaps because when the targets are slim I will admit that I will gladly did a quarter.  Trust me, after 3+ hours at Santa Monica and digging less than 2 dozen targets, you get to the point where you just want to dig something.

With that being said, I really do like The Legend in the wet.  It has no water wash/falsing issues as far as I have seen.

I've got a few random observations about The Legend after lengthy hour beach hunt today.  Mind you, I know this detector pretty well but have been away from it for about two months.  You know how that goes.

1. The Legend is the noisiest cross talking detector I have ever used.  When I get within maybe 20 feet of another multi my Legend goes nuts as do their detectors.  This happens in particular with the Deus II and the Equinox 900.  No amount of frequency changes can stop it.  I just have to swing real wide when I encounter another hunter.  This has happened to me in the past and today I encountered it with a 900.
2. The bottlecap reject on The Legend has me a bit befuddled.  On shallow caps, even at 0, the caps read wacky and have a different sound.  However, at depth, even at a max of 8, they still read and sound good.  The Equinox and the Apex (with its iron audio) are vastly superior to The Legend at id'ing bottlecaps at depth.  I have to play more with this but as of now I'm digging way too many bottle caps.
3. A pulltab reads a solid 26 for all of you nickel diggers.  And it sounds good.
4. The Legend is rock solid in wet sand at max sensitivity with no GB'ing required.
5. The new shaft, arm cuff and coil make the detector a dream to swing.  Zero fatigue.
6. I downloaded a copy of the manual to my phone to help navigate the embedded menus and that helped a lot.

More to come.  

Bill

The charging indicator on the display of my Legend never goes off when I am charging the detector.  When I go to take it off of the charger after charging overnight it still shows that it is charging.  However, after disconnecting the charger it shows a full charge.  Is this normal?  I'm used to the charging indicator going away or showing solid when a detector is fully charged.