Aureous

2 minutes ago, Gold Catcher said:

That' a matter of oppinion. The GM has found me good gold in shallow ground and IMHO the processor combined with iron meter makes it superior over the GB2 (which I also own), in particular when used in somewhat more difficult ground. True, the Nox 800 is probably a better joice, but I would not call the GM junk. It all depends on what else you've got in your fleet and how well it fits in. 

In totally mild conditions, it was OK....but in almost ALL my regional goldfields, it was noisy as hell and the GB2 and 24K beat it easily coz they didn't need to be dumbed down like the GM1000 to make the noise bearable. Im sure if ML made the audio analogue instead of digital, it would have been way easier to pick actual signals instead of ground noise and hot rocks. Honestly, I found the old Eureka Gold to be a far better ML VLF machine.

21 hours ago, afreakofnature said:

The SDC3100 😂

Going by the SD chronology, the successor will be the SDC2400. A year or two away I expect....the 2300 will surely get a discount by the end of the year to keep sales of that model going though.

On 2/14/2021 at 7:50 PM, Ridge Runner said:

Think about this ; Do you ever feel in the past that Minelab has let us down on any detector they have come out be it for coin are gold detecting?

 I’ve had their coin detectors more so than gold detectors and that’s because I don’t live in gold country. But I still find myself putting out the money for a gold detector and my reasoning behind this is when I do find myself where gold is I want the best.

 I may never own the 6000 but I’ll always own a Minelab if I’m serious in what I’m looking for.

 Chuck 

The only ML offering I can honestly say was junk is the GM1000. Owned one for a month and that was a month too long. I was way better off keeping my GB2. So glad I upgraded to the 24K. Cant wait to try the 6000 though!

2 hours ago, GeoBill said:

I've been away from detecting for a long time so I'm not really up to speed on the different technologies the various companies own. I'm more familiar with the biotech/hitech world where companies are bought solely for their intellectual property. Did White's have patents that Garrett would want/need to move their products forward?

Steve, you bring up the 24K. I see a lot of discussion/praise for the GM1000. Do you think Garrett would bring it back to compete in that space? Is it superior enough to the AT Gold that they would want to repackage under their own name?

I'm pretty happy with my V-SAT but was looking to get a VLF gold machine for my son.

Thanks.

As Steve suggests, the 24K sh*ts all over anything that Garrett have ever offered as a VLF gold machine. Only close runners that are on the market are the good old Gold Bug 2 (1990's design but still a killer on small gold) and the Nokta-Makro Gold Kuzer. The GM1000 could have been good except for that horrible digital audio that clicks, pops and farts constantly. The 24K has the depth advantage on small gold due to the excellent 6" CC coil and its ground balance system.

There are a few technicians here in Oz that have huge experience with GPX repairs, circuit boards etc. I can recommend Detectronics and Detectormods. The GPX PCB diagram is well known now, thanks to ML being hacked by Chinese spies several years ago. A few hundred bucks might completely repair it and then you have a $3K+ machine that you can trade-in or sell towards a 6000 or 7000. Worth a thought. 

Given that the 6000 is supposed to be better than the 2300, My bet is that within 3 months time, the SDC will be discounted by at least 20%. Its a possibility that the high price of the 6000 will 'separate' the 2 units sufficiently but surely the SDC sales will suffer. 

Another interesting factor is that now that a Minelab rep has stated that the pulse-train timing codes are NOT a derivative of prior timings, it distinctly shows that Geo-sense is a fluid, constantly adjusting timing (3x filters and all) like I surmised. Truly a new level of detecting code technology I suspect. I'm sure we'll see this same timing tech added to the next Bipolar PI (ZVT) that replaces the 7000 in a year or two. 

Geosense appears to be  the software GB/gain/filtering (3 levels as mentioned in the literature) in conjunction with  the ground-grab & tracking system. I think it auto adjusts the pulse-train timings to allow the maximum punch and ground signal dissipation on-the-fly. A very fluid auto adjustment filter which would require a very high-end processor, since it needs to work hundreds of times per sweep in mineralized ground conditions.

58 minutes ago, VicR said:

Two independent local sources (in Adelaide) have said that the price for the GPX6000 will be $7950 to $7999 AUD in Australia. Using the current exchange rate in (AUD to USD) would make it $6080 US but as i have noted the exchange rate is not a good indicator of the US price - it is usually more than the exchange rate - So i am guessing it will be more likely to be in the $6499 US to $6999 US price range for American buyers.

Its already established via 2 USA dealers that 'their' price will be US$6,000 flat. Oz$ will be $8K or slightly lower as you suggest.  

40 minutes ago, Gerry in Idaho said:

 

I see you swing a 24K, how you like it?  It was one of my favorite VLF gold only detectors.

Best high frequency VLF gold detector ever made....and Ive used em all. Close 2nd would be the Nokta Gold Kruzer and the Gold Bug 2.

5 hours ago, rusty1212 said:

Dose anyone know what the price of this metal Dect in other countries it all ready out I was one of the people how pay full price on the 7000 then they drop it 2500 do you think they will do this again to us or can we buy it out her counties to save some money and not get the shaft 

You will be seeing this detector at its full price for a year or two at least, going by past experience....if you wait until then, the 'easy gold' will be gone lol As Steve says, it hasn't been released yet and no-one except the field testers have physically  used one. Word is, the price will be AU$8K or US$6.5K+. Minelab only drop prices once (a) the model is about to be superseded. (b) Sales have slowed to the point where they need to move current stock (c) they want to encourage sales for a longer than anticipated 'life expectancy' period. There will be zero option for overseas early sales or price/currency exchange benefits as the release date is worldwide and Minelab pricing is rather even across all currencies to reduce such an event from happening nowadays. Used to be a time where US prices and Oz prices had noticeable difference....but no more 😞  

5 hours ago, Dances With Doves said:

Hi Steve.Do you know how many   people in Africa use a metal detector in   Africa for their lively hood. 

Semi-legal and just plain illegal Chinese mining occurs in vast areas of  Africa's gold regions and these guys buy a heap of ML product for use on their minesites and to 'employ' the locals to use said detectors to find gold in the countryside to sell to the detector owners at a reduced rate. In Sudan, Egypt, Chad, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe etc there are many 'teams' of locals who scour the gold regions with detectors as a good living too. 

Scuttlebutt here says that the release for actual sale is still 6+ weeks away and price will be AU$8K!!!! 3.5 ounces of gold to pay it off.....however, performance is touted as 'astounding'. So theoretically, talented, professional and experienced operators should be able to achieve this without too much effort. 

5 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I think the Feb date came from the FCC mirror website as far as when the manual would be available, and that now says Feb 9th

Lets hope its more than just the info release date then.... 🔜

Apparently, the info release date for the 6000 was (at some time or other) posted by Codan as being the 9th of February? Anyone seen the actual date on their website? If so, its in a spot that isn't obvious. Not sure if this is the specs/manual/promo date or the date at which we can pay a deposit or maybe buy one outright (stock dependent of course)??? 

22 hours ago, mungass said:

What mods were done to the 45 ?

Multi-position frequency mod and Tx gain mod. A solid swinger handle and Rodworthy EM shield. Totally transformed the 4500 into a quiet deep seeking machine for both sub-grammers and multi-grammers at depth. Just gotta rotate the frequency control, change the coil to suit (9" Elite at the high end, 14" Elite or bigger at the low end) and adjust the Tx gain to match the ground conditions...plus lower the Rx gain to suit ground and EMI noise conditions. Select either Enhance or sensitive smooth (mostly) as the relevant timing, also depending on the hot rock situation or ground noise. I'm mainly chasing sub grammers on old spots and Ive found that it doesn't quite match the SDC for sheer sensitivity but detects solid bits deeper than the SDC. On several occasions, Ive found half grammers at a foot depth. Crazy I know....

10 hours ago, Swegin said:

So a QED can't match a 2100?  I don't know I don't own one but I thought I read that a QED could match a 5000.  

 

On small gold (once you fiddle with all the relevant settings), the QED has the potential to beat a 5000 in most ground types. On larger targets, the same applies....almost (in my experience). But NOT simultaneously because the QED is a single channel PI whereas the 5000 can do it all...at the same time. The QED is super lightweight, cheap and reliable. But damn fiddly and lacks any useful form of tracking. It only has a auto ground sampling system that can struggle to keep up in some conditions. I sold mine and paid for the mods on my 4500. 4 ounces later and I do not regret it whatsoever. Best detector Ive ever owned and I will be using it to test against the 6000 when one becomes avail for loan.

15 hours ago, PhaseTech said:

How do others compete? If you mean other brands, well I'm still waiting for any other company to beat even a GP extreme for depth in mineralised ground. Ah, maybe make it a bit easier. How about the tired old SD2100. That should be an easier challenge. 5 gram nugget in mineralised ground, 14 or 15" round mono coil on the SD2100. Can any other non-Minelab detector match it?? Surely another company has been able to match a machine that came out in 1996!?? I highly doubt it.... but there's the challenge. Could be a very interesting experiment. 

A very objective challenge... all depends on target size, coil size and ground conditions. Ive had a Whites TDI beat my 4500 on a multi-gram target (lead) in heavily mineralised ground by a decent margin. The ATX I briefly owned, detected numerous small bits of gold in a patch I heavily gridded. The QED did the same, on the same spot. Overall though, on most targets, in most conditions, Minelab products have the edge for sure. Their dominance in the PI prospecting detector market has been protected by clever and wise patents and feverishly improved by a well funded R&D dept. Dual channel (MPS) tech along with their Ground Tracking tech etc etc has kept the competition at arms length who seem to be unable or unwilling to spend the necessary $$ to actually innovate and keep up with Minelab in this section of the marketplace. No sign of that changing anytime soon.

Getting back to Garrett lol.... if they simply spent a few $$ making the whole ATX package a smaller, lighter option with sensible coil options (make the design aftermarket-coil friendly) with maybe a few tweaks for sampling speed and/or frequency options, it would be a winner. The PCB design is good but the multiple button-press menu options are a huge nuisance for beginners. Keep the price below $3K and Garrett would sell a heap. 

I also emailed Garrett a few years ago...I bought an ATX as well. Only owned it for a month, found maybe 20 bits of gold with it, mostly with the 8" coil (bump sensitive as hell). The sh*tty ergonomics of it completely stuffed my shoulder to the point where I needed surgery 2 years later. I couldn't use a heavy detector for 3 years (hence my 'conversion' to the Gold Bug 2 and the 24K). In my email I asked exactly the same questions and suggestions as Steve did....make the ATX into a lightweight, aftermarket-coil friendly prospecting PI, instead of the collapsible military Mine detector afterthought. It certainly sampled faster than the 4500 and 5000 and could find specimen gold almost as good as the SDC with the small coil. Never even got a reply 😞 

8 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I’d argue it’s more via lack of coils. I am sure the coils are built as best as is possible, but by limiting key coils on models it helps keep each model more defined in capability one from the other. Other than that, do me a favor and turn the temp down in this discussion. It’s speculation and will lead nowhere positive I can see. We are doing the basic hit JP with questions he can’t answer thing. It’s not like he calls the shots at Minelab.

But, it is a key question which ML I fear, will never answer....if you are going to release only 1 coil for a detector....and then only one accessory coil a couple years later (as with the GPZ), then why not allow the aftermarket coil manufacturers to do the job for you? Especially within a short time-frame, as coil options sell more detectors. They did it with the SDC (finally) but not the GPZ until just recently. Coiltek is in the same city as ML's head office, where all the decisions are made. They would be the logical 1st option I'd suggest. But Nugget Finder also make sterling quality coils and so maybe a belated 'you're next in line' decision was made? 

Its all just an odd and curious situation. No high temp from me, just extreme curiosity...

Pulse Induction tech in all of its forms, whether single channel, multi channel (MPS) or BiPolar (ZVT) has plenty of scope for incremental improvement. The keys are all to do with coil current-transmit gain, frequency, pulse-train timings, sampling speed (MPF) and various methods of extracting the ground signal. All of these offer potential answers to extract more gold from the ground, either singularly, or in combination. For instance, can you imagine a high frequency, fast sampling BiPolar PI with high transmit gain using a DDO coil? I suspect there wouldn't be a single speck of gold left within a 2ft depth anywhere within a few years lol

35 minutes ago, jasong said:

If that's the case then I don't know that we have any companies even trying to compete with Minelab then. When it comes to gold machines anyways.

The ATX, the Impulse? What current ML product would those even be competing with?

I believe there are places a smartly run company could tactically take market share, especially with patents like the 4500 on the chopping block soon. It wouldn't be in the flagship product range though. Such a smartly run company might find some opportunity to tackle larger projects eventually.

The only REAL competition is with themselves and time. Once the market appears saturated for any particular niche, sales begin to wither and they then know, its time to release the next bit of technical improvement to bolster sales once again. ML are always 3-5 years ahead of themselves in either theory, bench-concept or field prototype. The massive profit margins they reap (always 70%+)  allow big R&D expenditure to 'reach into the future' and slay any potential rival. Only Garrett and Nokta appear capable of building anything that would even come close to some of ML's product range. The ATX, Impulse and QED are currently the only gold machines (with further modifications) within screaming distance of ML's products. But, once the 6000 is released, a new GPZ and maybe an updated SDC in coming years, the catch-up race is even further stretched.

Plus, the patents issue is always strenuously pursued by ML....their ground tracking and MPS (multi-channel PI) patents are ancient and yet still enforced at great cost....again, to throttle potential competition. Not sure how long this can last (legally) but you can bet that ML will try.

52 minutes ago, sturt said:

It seems to me a joke that distributors in Middle East have the product, show it on the net. But give no real technical information on the performance. Is that a competition problem with the area between distibutors?

Dont ML have confidence in there Australian Distributors in keeping secrets prior to rollout? Well they blew it over there. 

What is stopping ML from releasing the info we need. Must be doing some damage around the world on existing second hand and new detector sales. cheers sturt

There's obviously some 'grey area' in Africa/ME....they are allowed to get away with a lot more info disclosure whilst everyone else must keep 'Mum'. Almost all of the distributors for Africa are based in the Middle East, which is why all of them have zero field-use videos. 90% of them have zero field experience actually using ANY goldfields metal detectors anyway....but they have extensive contacts and a huge in-field network. This is why they sell sh*tloads of detectors for Minelab (more than Aus and USA combined) and seem to be impervious to gag orders. 

Australian dealers are notorious for leaking info on new ML releases. Sales drop considerably immediately prior to new tech release. During the last ML dealer conference in Corsica (2019), ML themselves let slip to the dealers that new Gold detector tech was being extensively field tested and expressed amazement at just how good it was....obviously surprising even ML themselves. If this was openly and 'officially' mentioned in forums, websites etc, GPZ, GPX and SDC sales would evaporate amongst the knowledgeable operators, leaving only the third-world and beginner markets to soak up whatever potential sales were left.

Minelab have become very good at dropping product 'suddenly' with often only a weeks notice, even when mild disclosure (like we're seeing now) is evident for a couple months. Obfuscation (like a stage magician) now becomes a sales tactic and no matter what reps say, ML will be ML.....the 6000 could be released tomorrow....or next month....or mid year.... wait n see and save our pennies lol

3 hours ago, Jonathan Porter said:

Speaking of controls, how many people can honestly say they have fully mastered all the switch and menu controls of the GPX5000? All the possible permeations of the zillions of menu settings and switch combinations? I helped develop the thing and I spent all my time using General Search mode very close to the FP settings, the rest is just dross at best and confusion for even the most experienced operators.  

Something to ponder on as this discussion evolves. 😇🙏

JP, I'll never say 'mastered', but I switch between 3 different timings often. Tracking speed sometimes too. Its all a matter of knowing how 'bad' the soil conditions are and what size gold you expect to find in any given area...also what size coil is being used. But, switches and knobs can sometimes give you a false sense of knowing whats right and wrong....maybe the Geosense tech can do it better? Given that you have trialed the 6000 extensively prior to full-scale manufacture, we all would love to know your thoughts and results achieved....once you're allowed to of course 😉

Seems very logical that seeing this current video, it now suggests that almost ALL selective functionality we've come to expect and enjoy from using the previous GPX series is now automatically selected via a logic processor instead. Tracking speed, pulse-train timings, sweep speed (retune) and search mode  are now all NOT user selective. This is obviously in response to customer demand from the Middle East/Africa to make a PI that is less 'confusable' to lesser experienced operators. Whether this will supply western detectorists with the required improved performance is yet to be seen.