Jeff McClendon

My GPX 4000 was not modded by Woody.

Whether that matters....who knows.

Mine is stock. Mine is also very quiet running at default settings as long as there is no EMI in the area. I cannot run my 4000 in a house or anywhere near WiFi, electric lines or mobile phones. Even some LED lights drive it crazy. 

Try switching it from Mono to Cancel and see if that helps.

If you are anywhere near major sources of electricity......forget about getting it quiet.

Hi Steve G.

Thank you for being brave and hanging in there when others on this thread have been over reacting in my opinion and taking this issue way beyond where it needs to be limited to which is specific and as you say a niche situation.

I too want one of the partially non-conductive lower rods for my Manticore M8 coil for gold prospecting. There is definitely an issue using the Manticore's gold prospecting mode and its stock CF lower shaft that I would prefer to avoid.

I do a ton of mostly coin, jewelry and relic detecting with the Manticore and so I hope everybody hears this Loud and Clear: I am totally, absolutely, 100% fine with the stock carbon fiber lower shafts supplied by Minelab on the Manticore for those detecting purposes. I am sure that your current stock of CF lower shafts would be great too for that kind of detecting.

I thought there would never be a VLF detector that could do what the Manticore is doing in the dirt here in Central Colorado. I am up to 58 deep silver coins (mostly Mercury and Rosie dimes) in the last 4 months and most were deep in the 8 to 12" range in really bad dirt and on ground that I had already detected as had many others with previous great detectors like Deus 2, the Equinox series, the CTX 3030 and the Etrac. If there is an issue with CF lower shafts on the Manticore with depth, separation or whatever for this kind of detecting.........I'm simply not buying it. No problem here just like Carl and many others have said.

So, if you get coin, jewelry and relic customers wondering WTF as far as using your carbon fiber lower shafts for that kind of detecting, just direct them to this post. 

Merrill, XP's US ambassador, released a video about the Deus 1/ORX conversion kit, and in the video specifically mentioned that XP heard its customers "loud and clear" about the need for an HF elliptical coil for Deus 2.

The promotion for the conversion pack $589 US, for me anyway is a no go. I already have a Deus 2.

I was hoping for an actual way to software/firmware update a Deus 1 or ORX controller to mimic Deus 2 software.....

XP's US representative Merrill did a YouTube video that was actually halfway decent.

Merrill made a point to mention that XP hears its customers "loud and clear" about the need for an elliptical coil and higher frequencies. That is some really good news.

Elite vs 600.  

Like Chase said, there is the difference in selectable single frequencies, the wireless BT system is proprietary (not universal like the 600 BT) and the coils are different.

The only other negative I see on the Elite vs the 600 is the 4 digit notching vs single digit notching on the 600.

The Elite has an extra -1 iron bias setting which is a plus and also has DP tones or 2 tone capable VCO audio, built in LED search light and handle vibration which the 600 does not have.

Throw in the proven waterproofing, better ergonomics/shaft system and (at least from my experience) these later 700 and 900 models and possibly the Elite too are just faster in general and I think the Elite is an upgrade over the 600.

I would have a hard time buying a 700 over an Elite at this point. My only hesitation would be with the 4 digit notching, but I rarely use notching......

I also am still experiencing seemingly random but less frequent 15 to 30 second delays after trying to navigate from one part of the site to another. Getting onto the site initially is way faster than it has been in months. So overall, a big improvement

Thanks for all of your work to provide this awesome site for so many of us.

Thank you Steve H. for the positive update, your testing work and the advice you have given to the company so that the AlgoForce E1500 will be coming to North America. I look forward to owning one. Thanks also to Simon (phrunt) and Nenad for all of the work they have done and of course to Alex and his team.

I definitely do not need a soft case. Just put it in the appropriate cardboard box with no extra graphics, etc and I will be happy.

1 hour ago, Hydan said:

 

What is the correct angle between the coil and the stick to avoid the problem as much as possible, and in the end the device is unable to increase the sensitivity to a certain amount?

1 to 2" is enough space between the coil and the lower shaft to make a substantial difference at sensitivity 18 to 22. 

I have not detected in areas that allow me to run my Manticore at maximum sensitivity using the prospecting mode when gold prospecting yet so I can't answer the second part of your question.

Maybe phrunt can try it on his milder mineralization sites.

EMI is way too high in the urban area I live in to test anywhere near maximum sensitivity possibilities also. Sorry. 

5 minutes ago, phrunt said:

You lucky bugger 🙂  Another reason to get a Legend.  My Simplex is on a carbon rod, So I don't have the original rod as I was a used buyer of it and the original was made out of something like garden hose the seller told me so he threw it out and bought a carbon shaft so when I get my Legend (once I secure a Nel Snake) I'll have to buy the lower shaft to go with it, at least its available.

There is a little wiggle at the insertion point at the middle shaft cam lock. I had the same thing with the stock Legend lower rod. I just wrap it with a bit of Teflon tape when it bugs me.

I don't recommend putting a coil bigger than the LG24 on that $19.99 plastic shaft however. It will flex with bigger coils.

1 minute ago, phrunt said:

The video shows why Bill experienced his problem in his video, what my video demonstrates is it's not just a prospector's problem, it's a problem that every detector over 10kHz can experience with the shaft being made of a conductive material, I don't know why I didn't use even lower frequencies when I did it, I'd not be surprised if they pick it up too.

What the video demonstrates is just how conductive the shafts are, the coil cables give a reaction but not near as severe.

I would not be surprised if once @Nokta Detectors gets wind of this they make a shaft for the Legend out of plastic as an optional accessory for prospectors and those that this issue bothers, that's the kind of business they are, it's Minelab that will leave us in the lurch so we are relying on the likes of Steveg to help us out.

  

Nokta already sell such a shaft ($19.99 US) which is an updated version of the original Simplex shaft with less wobble. Mine arrived in the mail today. It eliminates the issue completely.

Just my opinions here. I mean no harm by expressing them whether one likes them or not.

With all due respect to Simon for making his videos and posting them and me still staying chill, there was very little in those videos that demonstrates practical, real life detecting situations other than what we knew already which is: some carbon fiber shafts are conductive and many metal detectors and pinpointers will detect them when they are waved over or under a coil using many of the search modes and frequency settings of those detectors/pinpointers.

I could make a similar video using similar detectors showing how coil cables are also conductive and can be detected by some pinpointers and coils when they are waved over or under a coil using many of the search modes and frequency settings of those detectors/pinpointers.

A more realistic and practical video would be similar to the one I linked on page 1 showing the only obvious real life detecting situation where this can actually happen using various detectors.

I prefer coils that have center mounts for attaching them to lower shafts. In this case however, rear mounted coils actually make more sense and can cut down on the heel of the coil detecting the shaft. Luckily Nokta's LG15 coil mounts that way.

I am totally chill. 

It's good information to know and it's good that a carbon fiber shaft manufacturer like Steve G. is willing to listen to comments about negative results with carbon fiber lower shafts. I am also really glad that he is willing to work on solutions.

I wish others on this forum would not over react and would investigate before drawing conclusions or making statements that confuse others who aren't even gold prospectors that may read this topic.

phrunt said in a post on page 6:

"I will never be using a carbon lower shaft again, and I think it's foolish to do so."

5 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Nobody is talking bans.

It's just styrofoam and weighs next to nothing. I had some leftover from a plumbing project. I didn't even try to make it fit snug on the Manticore shaft. It fits well on the Legend shaft. Any hardware store may have this stuff that will fit the lower shafts of your detector exactly.

3 hours ago, phrunt said:

Yes, they detect it to a lesser degree in lower frequencies, but they still do detect it.  To me this is a concern, I'd rather they didn't.  If a low frequency detector picks up the shaft that's a worry to me.  Pin pointers sit around the 12/13 kHz and they roar on a carbon shaft, the 19kHz and higher go nuts on it.  Let's face it, reality is it shouldn't be used on any detector, might as well go back to the early times with my Radio Shack detector and use a metal nut and bolt.

With VLFs at the peak of technology trying to squeeze any tiny micron of performance is it acceptable to use something so blatantly obviously performance limiting?  Certainly not for me.

I will never be using a carbon lower shaft again, and I think it's foolish to do so.

My opinions only, and I'm no detector expert.

I am no expert in carbon fiber either. I am not even a beginner. 

At my age, I am very thankful that carbon fiber shafts are available to make my metal detecting experience mostly very enjoyable due to their strength and weight so I don't have an issue using them for the most part and I certainly am not ready to put a personal ban on using carbon fiber lower shafts for the vast majority of my detecting unless it is gold prospecting with the coil parallel to shaft.

I don't want to ban physical coil cables either even though they are detected by many metal detectors and even some pinpointers.

I owned several early model Tesoro's with full metal shafts that had a short 4" plastic end on the lower metal shaft and a metal coil bolt. They worked fine for general detecting using medium sized to small coils.

So, I just am not okay with a ban all carbon fiber lower shafts for all detecting at this point. 

2 hours ago, Erik Oostra said:

But when I tried again with a Nokta PulseDive it didn't react at all.. What voodoo is at work here?  

Pulse Dive is a pulse induction pinpointer. Like Steve H. pointed out earlier (might have been deleted during the recent crash) some pulse induction pinpointers and some pulse induction detectors will not audibly detect carbon fiber shafts. My F/Pulse and Tek/Point pinpointers (super deep pulse induction pinpointers) will not detect these shafts or coil cables either. My new Nokta Accupoint pinpointer (VLF 20kHz and really shallow compared to the F/Pulse) goes off on every carbon fiber shaft I own from 2 inches away and will detect coil cables when touching them.

Read the paragraph above the one you quoted

31 minutes ago, phrunt said:

Not too sure about that Jeff, what frequency do most pinpointers run on? My Garrett Ace detector can pick up a carbon shaft.

You are not too sure about what?

5 hours ago, RobNC said:

I'm wondering WHY carbon fiber on these rods is conductive. I just tested my Legend and can confirm it is indeed sparking off with a pointer like others have mentioned.

The bigger concern is how much extra noise is that introducing to the equation? I know the coil wires are covered and supposedly shielded but one can't help but think that conductive carbon fiber is just drawing in all kinds of crap in the environment like a big antenna. Gee this puts a whole new spin on why a lot of new detectors are seemingly more susceptible to EMI and RFI. Never would have thought the carbon shafts were conductive. Thanks for pointing this out.

The problem being discussed here is about the coil detecting the carbon fiber shafts on several detectors.

On the detectors mentioned it happens when:

1. the detectors are operating in their gold prospecting modes

2. the coil is parallel to the shaft and part of the coil is extremely close or actually touching the shaft

3. the detector is bumped, the coil is bumped or the coil is scraped as is done by gold prospectors with their hand or with a plastic scoop during final target recovery.

That is the only time that this is really a problem.

For the Legend specifically, the other search modes and the higher single frequencies will only very faintly detect the shaft if you have the search coil parallel to the shaft and bump the coil against the shaft. The results are very different using the Legend's prospecting mode set on Multi.

Just because a pinpointer will detect a carbon fiber shaft like the one on the Legend, it does not mean that during normal detecting using Park, Field or Beach that you will experience a problem.

So, unless you are a gold nugget prospector, this issue should not concern you at all.

3 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

The technical aspects of this issue are very complex as is typical when discussing all the variables that influence our ability to detect and recover targets with these machines.  A couple observations:

Is this really a micro target recovery issue vs. a micro target detection issue?  In other words, the issue appears to be that the CF shaft lying flat up against the coil interferes with people's ability to use the pass the hand/scoop over the coil method to narrow down the location of a recovered micro target that was successfully detected in the ground.  Is that the limiting case?

Second, it was mentioned that the coil cable might play some role in the issue.  To a certain extent that is true from a pure metal standpoint (in this case, the metal being the coil cable shield and connector), but there was also a discussion as to whether current passing through the coil cable was also creating an interfering EM field.  Regarding the latter statement, that would likely be "a no" for two reasons: First, the magnitude of the current flowing the coil is relatively small and second, and most importantly, the cable is shielded coax which suppresses the EM field surrounding the cable such that it is limited to existing with the dielectric between the cable wire and the shielding.  Therefore, the fact that current is flowing through the coil cable has no effect the magnetic field effects.

Anyway, very little will get settled here, and mostly people are going to have to convince themselves whether this issue matters to them to the point of needed the lower rod.  I am going to do some additional testing on my own to help me better understand the practical impacts of the CF rod.

One detector design expert I would be interested in hearing from is @Geotech to see if he has any perspective to shed on this issue.

For me, it's a sub gram target recovery issue when using the hand or scoop passing over the coil technique. I have no idea if it is an "in ground" sub gram target detection issue as long as one is not detecting with the coil flat against the shaft. I do that sometimes on excavation trench walls but it's rare.

What isn't rare as far as using the hand/scoop sweeping or scraping the coil is that I may use that recovery technique 50 to 100 times per day. Not fun when the coil and shaft are that finicky when they are close together.

Steve G, I am definitely not here to argue with anyone.

I just showed in the video and from my own personal experience that the thoroughness of Tom D. and Minelab's testing on the Manticore is at question, not their honesty. The same goes for Nokta since something similar happens with the Legend to a lesser extent.

If we all had similar occurrences of the coil detecting CF shafts during coin/jewelry/relic detecting target recovery similar to the normal type of gold prospecting target recovery procedures shown in the video, there would be an uproar.

Most people simply don't need to use that type of target recovery and they rarely lay their coils down flat like we gold prospectors do especially when trying to recover really small targets. The vast majority of users that detect with these gold prospecting capable Swiss Army knife detectors don't use their gold prospecting mode either.

That shotgun pellet in Bill's video was of the medium to large size and really easy to detect using the Manticore's gold prospecting mode. A #7 or smaller shotgun pellet or a 0.1 gram or smaller nugget is a real challenge to hear especially when the coil is detecting the shaft and making extra, unwanted noise. Getting ones hand or scoop as close as possible to the coil or actually scraping the coil is essential but it causes vibration and in the case of the Manticore and other gold prospecting VLFs with CF shafts, potential unwanted noise that can make the actual target if it is in the scoop or hand harder to hear and can mimic a target if the actual target is not in the scoop or hand.

20 minutes ago, steveg said:

Hi all,

I wanted to chime in here.  Yes, carbon-fiber is electrically conductive.  A carbon-fiber tube is MUCH less conductive than a metal tube, but -- certainly carbon fiber does conduct electricity.  All carbon-fiber tubes will sound off, with a pinpointer.  I've never seen or known of one that doesn't.  Carbon-fiber tubes are produced by a relatively small number of factories, and the raw materials (carbon-fiber fabric) are produced by an even smaller number of companies -- so, while I have obviously not tested all carbon tubes, from all factories, I am fairly confident in stating that "all" carbon tubes are conductive, and thus all would be detected by a pinpointer.

WITH THAT SAID, the question is whether this is an issue, for detecting.  Is this something that affects the performance of the detector?

I looked into this question years ago, and concluded, based on my sources, that it is NOT an issue, to any appreciable degree.  But, since this has suddenly become an topic of interest, I wanted to address it in as scientific of a way as possible, and since I'm not an electrical engineer, I decided to have an detailed conversation with Tom Dankowski (NASA Engineer, and also a integral part of Minelab's engineering team, on the Manticore project).

I called Tom a couple of weeks ago, and we spoke at length on this subject.  The short version of the story is that Minelab IS aware that carbon fiber is detectable, and yet they have concluded through rigorous testing that it is of essentially no issue, with respect to the performance of detectors -- even the highly sensitive Manticore.

To elaborate...

FIRST, as has been discussed here, the shaft is not "in motion" relative to the coil, and so, for a VLF-IB machine, the shaft is not "detected" -- it won't "beep" in other words, given the lack of motion relative to the coil.  BUT -- the other issue to consider is that even an object that is not "in motion" relative to the coil, can have an effect on the electromagnetic "footprint," or "envelope," surrounding the coil.  In a worst-case scenario, with a highly conductive metal object (say, a copper disc) sitting on, or very near, the coil, this object --while not "detected" will "alter" the electromagnetic "lines of flux" that surround the coil.  In a worst-case scenario, with a highly conductive object very close to the coil, this can result in a "weakness" in detectability in some portion of the coil's footprint can occur.  In other words, there could be a location within the coil's footprint where there is a relative "null," or "weakness" in terms of target detectability.  So -- that's the question at hand...i.e. is a carbon-fiber tube able to "affect" or "distort" or "alter" the electromagnetic field, to a degree and in a way that might reduce "sensitivity" of the coil at some location or sector beneath the coil.

This was what Tom and I discussed at length.  He noted that Minelab was attuned to this possibility, and thus they needed to test/evaluate to be sure it would not be an issue.  Tom assured me that this was tested very throughly (use of carbon shafts on the Manticore, during the design phase of the Manticore platform).  Obviously, carbon tubes are much less conductive, from a "detecting" perspective, than, say, an aluminum tube.  As such, a carbon tube would clearly have MUCH less effect on the electromagnetic field surrounding the coil.  But still, it is something that Minelab needed to be sure no more than negligible, at worst, if they would ultimately decide to utilize carbon fiber for the Manticore shaft.  He said that based on their thorough testing -- which included evaulations with an oscilloscope that they performed so as to truly "see" any effect of the carbon tube on the electromagnetic field surrounding the coil -- they found that the effect of the carbon tube on the coil's electromagnetic field was so small/negligible, as to be considered an entire non-issue.  This is why they were comfortable proceeding with the utilization of the carbon-fiber shaft.  He said that for all intents and purposes, the carbon tube can be considered to have "no" effect...

He also let me know that this was important to them to be sure of -- in that clearly some of Minelab's competitors do not use carbon-fiber shafts.  And so, given how competitive things currently are between the top detecting companies, to produce very high-performance machines, Minelab COULD NOT AFFORD to do something that would "cripple" or "handicap" in any way, the performance of the Manticore (or EQX 700/900) RELATIVE TO the performance of their competitors' top-end machines.  And so, this is something they were VERY cognizant of, and thus tested thoroughly.  And again, he assured me that based on their testing, it is for all intents and purposes a complete non-issue.  They were prepared, if testing warranted it, to use a different lower rod material (obviously they did, with the lower rod on the otherwise aluminum Equinox 600/800 shaft, as they knew that an aluminum lower rod WOULD HAVE had a negative effect on the coil), but since testing with carbon fiber, during Manticore design, showed that any effect was negligble at best, they were therefore fully confident in proceeding with carbon fiber.

One other point I will make is, there is also a similar consideration with the fact that we have a copper wire (coil cable) that also, by definition, lies within the electromagnetic footprint of the coil.  And that, too, would have a small, but can-be-considered-negligible effect on the electromagnetic field surrounding the coil.  Obviously, if you touch the coil cable with your pinpointer, you'll detect it, as well.  But, again, the effect is negligible and therefore not an issue that we concern ourselves with.  It's the same way, with a carbon tube.

Hopefully, this helps.  I was assured during my conversation with Tom that it would be wasted effort to search for another type of material, to make a "non-conductive" lower rod, due to how negligible/minimal the effect is of the carbon fiber, on the coil's EM footprint.  Minelab was confident in not using an alternative material, and he suggested that I could likewise be confident.  The essentially "zero" effect that they confirmed, via their scientific/lab testing, on detection capability of the coil, simply does not warrant any reason to switch to another material.

I hope this helps.  

Thanks,

Steve

Did you watch Bill Southern's video above? What it shows is definitely an "issue" no matter what Tom D says.

Gold prospecting capable detectors like the Manticore are super sensitive when using their gold prospecting modes. I doubt that Tom D. or Minelab did extensive testing on the situation that Bill accidentally videoed while he was trying out the Manticore in a perfectly normal, real life prospecting scenario. I can hear the coil/shaft sounding off even when Bill lightly sweeps his scoop against the coil with the heel of the coil over an inch away from the shaft.

My Manticore with M8 coil does exactly the same thing that the video demonstrated.

For larger target recovery, I have no concerns with using the Manticore's or any other carbon fiber shaft system as long as I am not detecting with the coil actually touching the shaft or in close proximity to it.

However, any kind of coil bump sensitivity, especially that which is caused by the shaft itself can make gold prospecting for sub gram targets on already hot ground that much more difficult. The type of sub gram target recovery that Bill demonstrated is totally normal for gold prospectors whether they are using a plastic scoop or their hand. Being able to rapidly locate these tiny targets in a cup full of hot dirt after digging them is really important to gold prospectors. Having all of that extra noise demonstrated in the video.......that is super frustrating and just not OK.

1 hour ago, JCR said:

A serious unit that is capable of hunting in difficult conditions with performance to match what is already available from others is what I am hoping for.  You can now get this type of performance starting at $500. I don't think the Storm will be that low. If it performs it doesn't have to be, but it better perform at the top. I don't think I will be much interested in a SMF AT Max in an Apex housing.

If it is an AT Max performance level detector with Apex SMF tech in an Apex housing......I won't be interested either, sorry Garrett.

I have let myself become seriously addicted to VLF SMFs that actually tell me what is under my coil, even deeper coin sized targets. Maybe that is "cheating" or not thrilling enough for some, but at my age, I really appreciate being able to depend on accurate target IDs and audio detecting down to 10" deep coin sized targets. Maybe that makes me a wuss but my body thanks me everyday and so does my finds pouch which is no longer full of mostly up averaged target ID trash.

Here is a Nugget Shooter video where Bill Southern has a WTF moment when he finds out about this issue. Fast forward to the 2 minute 30 second mark of the video and go to about 4 minutes. I have started to just not lay the M8 coil flat. I keep it at a slight angle like Bill ends up doing and have the coil bolt a little tighter. 

I haven't spent a lot of time on testing this unfortunate characteristic. Obviously Minelab and Nokta didn't spend a lot of time testing it either using the gold prospecting modes on the Nox 900, Manticore and Legend.

You can definitely add the Legend's carbon fiber lower rod to that list. Luckily for small coil uses, Nokta still sells plastic lower rods that fit on all of the Simplex, Score and Legend models.

I don't have a Deus 2 carbon fiber lower shaft so I can test it.

The first time I noticed it on the Legend was at the LSD outside Phoenix. Every time I tried to use a scoop after laying the LG24 coil flat with the heel of the coil touching the lower rod, I would get some slight coil bump noises if I scraped my scoop on the top of the coil. I just thought I had laid the coil down on a hot rock or something.....I just stopped scraping my scoop on the coil. I also ignored the coil bump noises when detecting under and in bushes that made the coil pivot and get close to the shaft. I thought my LG24 coil was going bad. Nope, it was detecting the shaft.

The Manticore has that problem but waaaaaay worse using the M8. I hear a loud  boing, boing, boing sound when I lay the coil flat on the ground with the heel of the coil really close to the shaft even without scraping my scoop over the coil. I definitely have to "air" scrape my scoop using the Manticore with M8 which is just not OK.

I haven't noticed any of this on the Axiom....yet.