Chase Goldman

6 minutes ago, Tnsharpshooter said:

I will comment here.

I have loads of Deus HF coils (both)  time under my belt based on actual release date.

And we as users may need to be paying attention when using the Equinox as far as single freq vs muti tone.

What I am talking about exactly?

I have noticed many, many times when comparing undisturbed suspect targets (targets did turn out to be nonferrous), where using 28.8khz would allow for more slop in coil approach/position vs the use of 14.4khz with all other settings being the same except ground balance was acquired using both freqs.

So using the higher frequency depending when sweeping give the coil a larger hot spot(alerting position).

If using full tones for example with Deus, 0 disc, using 14.4khz, user gets more out of ideal position for detection iron tone sounds off and a person keeps walking.

So I will be watching how the Equinox does here.

 

Interesting (if true) and yet kind of bizarre considering you get more target separation at the higher frequency which doesn't entirely make sense to me with a larger sweet spot.  Did you find the sweet spot increased or decreased when you pushed the coil up to 56/74 khz?

Whatever works.  Exactly.  I expect the Equinox will fill in those single frequency gaps nicely.

I do a lot of relic hunting in Virginia especially in the mineralized fields near Culpeper.  I am sure many of you are familiar with the organized hunts conducted in and around that area.  Obviously, I have seen a number of vlf detectors struggle under these conditions (AT Pro, F75, MXT, Deus, and even the CTX).  Just as with most of those who frequently hunt there, the PI detector is the detector of choice vs. a vlf.  I personally use a GPX 4800 and have also used the Garrett ATX with good success.  When hunting I carry along my Deus strapped to my daypack, because I can but also because it acts as a pretty good pinpointer on steroids if I get into a pit and can use it to quickly scan the tailings.  Being single frequency, it is obviously limited there but under certain circumstances it is usable.  But my question isn't about the Deus.  It is about the CTX vs. Equinox.  I have seen the CTX struggle there just as bad as the Deus or any of the other VLF machines.  Sure, we will all get lucky and find a relatively shallow keeper target with our VLFs but not consistently.  Target ID is non-existent.  I consistently hear about how the Equinox should excel in mineralized ground.  I am also hearing about CTX owners who are excited to get their hands on an Equinox because it should do better under similar mineralized ground conditions.  Since the CTX is a multifrequency FBS machine that I have seen no fare well in the what can be considered very hot soil, what is it about the Equinox and MultIQ (or othewise) that is raising expectations that it can perform better than the CTX under these conditions.   I am not expecting PI like performance under these conditions, but I just want to better understand the differences in the CTX and Equinox designs that will enable the expected improved performance.  Thanks.

Thanks, Steve.  In my case, we WERE in a farm field.  Largely devoid of modern trash (though there was some).  The "high conductive silver" items that were being picked up were smaller, older silver dimes and half dimes so that tends to be consistent with what you were saying.  However, in another case a cache of large CW coat buttons was missed at 14 khz but picked up at 28 khz.  They rang up high, I suspect due to their size not composition as they were of course brass mid-conductors.  So I agree with you that HF hits hard on mid-conductors AND on smaller metallic targets (regardless of composition), but the CW button find really had us scratching our heads because these were Larger targets in a relatively close grouping (7x7' square) completely missed when swept by a lower frequency detector. They were picked up at 28 khz.    This is one specific case where I think things are not necessarily holding to convention (don't know why).  But even if I don't know why, I think MultIQ will more than likely alleviate the "misses" regardless of frequency that I described above and that is why I am optimistic.  Thoughts?

20 minutes ago, Cabo Chris said:

What?  Both have the same beach mode.  

Yep. Beach mode uses MultiIQ only and as been stated earlier in the thread, both the 600 and 800 use all 5 frequencies in MultiIQ including 20 and 40 khz, even though the 600 can't select them in individual frequency mode.

49 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

OK, you are going by the past, and that has been true in the past, I agree. You are going with the old idea that single frequencies always have more punch than multifrequency. The problem is - that's not really the case with Multi-IQ. Not only are you unlikely to see more depth in 5 kHz only, but your target id accuracy will drop off because you are no longer doing target comparisons at multiple frequencies.

That said, I also have not compared the Equinox at 5 khz running the large coil against the same configuration while running Multi-IQ on your ground, so I admit that in the end I do not know either and you may very well prove to be right.  The point i am making is the old rules no longer apply with Multi-IQ, so be careful about applying past assumptions. My best advice to anyone getting an Equinox is to try and start with a fresh mind. It really is new and different and past assumptions no longer hold. We all have to start over, and honestly that's part of the fun.

Precisely!  Randy is most likely correct in his assertion because that would be the conventional wisdom that comes from years of MD community experience with single frequency detectors.  But as Steve says, we do not know what surprises await with Multi IQ, especially after it gets into the hands of thousands of detectorists that could flip conventional wisdom on its head.  My apologies for yet again using Deus examples on a ML forum (and Hf in an LF thread), but as I have discussed in other threads, widespread use of the Deus HF coils were starting to tell us things we did not think applied using conventional MD wisdom.  Namely, that you could be bypassing high conductive targets because they were not being picked up at 14khz but were being picked up at 28khz and above.  Totally against conventional wisdom.  While we still don’t fully understand why (there are theories based on sound science) we nevertheless recognized it was consistently happening and changed up our approach.  Problem is, just going to 28 kHz or above was not necessarily the right answer because then you could be sacrificing deep silver, so you would have to make a decision to grid with different frequencies or painstakingly interrogate each target with multiple frequencies to unmask goodies.  I anticipate that Multi IQ combined with the greatly increased recovery speed will eliminate the need for such machinations for the most part and that is what has got me excited about the Equinox 800.  But as Steve said, unconventional thinking may apply.

Does SolSol make a mossy oak camo cap style?  I have trouble seeing your typical relic hunter wearing the above.  Lol.

2 hours ago, Johnnysalami1957 said:

If you knew the amp draw of the machine divide by 12 for approx mah. And why worry about all these back up batteries. It's not like we all go detecting more that 10 hrs a day and can charge at night. Getting crazy here! You could always put a car battery in a wagon and pull it around behind you. With a cooler in it of course. How about a solar panel hat?

Solar panel hat, hmm.  Shark Tank here I come! Lol.

3 hours ago, TreasureGuy said:

I have sat back and read so much about both machines... I have no need for the top end frequencies, and have operated machines in the 600 frequencie range before and they have been great machines. To use all those great machine frequencies at once is what sold me the Multi IQ.. I have no need for Wireless headphones and I would never consider using the 800 full recovery speed settings as noted on certain Russian videos as you lose a lot of depth.. So it's the 600 for me..

 

I also thought I had no need for the higher frequencies on my Deus, not a gold prospector.  Until I purchased one of the Deus HF coils (14 - 58 kHz operating frequency) which made “hunted out” sites come alive again with both mid-conductor (brass, buttons, nickels, and of course gold) and, quite unexpectedly, high conductor (old silver coins) that were not being picked up by the LF coil frequencies (ie < 18 kHz) for some unexplained reason (one theory is that these targets were being masked by deep iron).  This is a phenomenon experienced by several users  of Deus HF coils in different geographic areas, so not a coincidence.  Sometimes, folks dismiss detector features because they are not interestested in the most common usage of the feature not realizing they may be locking themselves out of capabilities they didn’t even know existed. I personally am not willing to limit myself from something I don’t yet realize I could put to good use for want of $250 and that was the point of my OP.   If you don’t need to find keeper targets masked by deep iron or have the capability to select from two additional frequencies to counter site EMI, or any of the other additional flexibilities afforded by the additional settings of the 800, then I get it.  No need to spend the extra dough.  I am just not smart enough to know now that I will NEVER need these features.

You dealers have to put up with some interesting customer angst.  We can't help it even though we know we are acting like spoiled 5 year olds.  LOL.

"And I'd be out in my Santa Hat digging up staters..."  Lol.

I was thinking the same thing.  Though I would personally have preferred inclusion of the waterproof headset as the 600/800 are compatible with any standard bluetooth stereo headset even without the WM08 module.  I find the up to 4 simultaneously connected wireless headsets to be intriguing to say the least.

7 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I don’t know how Equinox works under the hood. I think we may have passed the point where all that stuff matters with Multi-IQ. What matters to me is what the detector can detect or not detect in various modes and determining which modes to use for which applications.

Park, Field, and Beach mode are discrimination modes, and “all metal” in those modes simply means everything is set to accept. Whether in multifrequency or single frequency this does not change. Your example of the X-Terra coin mode and the horseshoe “all metal” button is spot on.

Gold Mode does act differently than the other modes (patience please) but is not bereft of discrimination capability. The X-Terra 705 Prospect Mode is about the closest similar mode to Gold Mode but they are not the same. Gold Mode is better.

I am sorry to be so circumspect on the modes and differences between modes, but this is one area where Minelab is very specific that they do not want people (testers) who do not know exactly what Multi-IQ does and how it does it to be speculating about things they really don’t know about.

So what are the technicalities of Gold Mode under the hood? I could speculate but then I would have to be shot. I will leave it for a Minelab engineer to explain. I can tell you this. I can find gold nuggets weighing under a grain (480 grains per Troy Ounce) in Gold Mode running the stock 11” round DD coil in real world conditions. I know this because I have done it. That should tell most people what they need to know about Gold Mode.

The point also is other mode options are no slouch on small gold either...

https://www.minelab.com/go-minelabbing/treasure-talk/found-in-the-fields-equinox-gold

Field Mode will be the go to alternative for Equinox 600 owners going after small targets and frankly for a lot of nugget hunters who use the Equinox 800 also. Sometimes when hunting gold in trashy areas you want a good tones based disc mode and Equinox is as good as it gets in that regard.

Other than that - patience please 

Steve,

I know you really can't go into further details on the search mode Secret MultiIQ Sauce so I understand if you don't comment further on this, but Minelab's site does describe Gold Mode as follows: 

So single frequency operation vice Multi IQ is the default for this mode.  Seems obvious but I was genuinely confused because the term Multi IQ was thrown around a lot during the various discussions of Gold Mode.  This cleared up some misconceptions on my part and perhaps it will help others.

Both have beach mode per the various basic feature lists and the quick start guides posted on the forum.

Yes. It was clear ML had the Max bracketed on both ends by the 600 and 800.  It was clearly targeted to take the wind out of Garrett’s sales (pun intended) and also the Impact for that matter.  A brutal marketing takedown on ML’s part.

Ha Ha that is why I am saving my blood pressure for other grudge matches and embracing Deus and Equinox both as MD game changers each in their own right.  Like you, my “arsenal” will be paired down to the GPX, the ATX, the Deus (with HF coils), and the Equinox 800.  Bye, bye to my venerable Excalibur II (I don’t dive, so ‘Nox baby!), T2, F75, MXT Pro (sniff) and my not so venerable MX Sport.  I will also hang on to my “first” legit detector, a Tek Delta, for sentimental reasons and because it is still one helluva coin shooter in nominal soil conditions and a great machine to loan out to future detectorists young and old.  Lol.

30 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Fabulous explanation of your thoughts on why the equinox 800 is a better choice for you Chase, thanks! 

There is this Equinox 600 Versus Equinox 800 and this Five Frequency Times Eight

From the second thread:

" However, both the Equinox 600 and Equinox 800 offer identical Multi-IQ modes covering the full frequency range. The Equinox 600 simply disallows direct access to the 20 khz and 40 kHz single frequency modes."

To clarify, the Multi-IQ modes on both the Equinox 600 and Equinox 800 are identical. In my opinion Multi-IQ is the true magic of Equinox, and the Equinox 600 is the bang for the buck in that it will perform every bit as well for most people as the Equinox 800.

The Equinox 800 offers a specialty mode by way of the Gold Mode that is optimised for finding very tiny items, think small gold nuggets or single post earrings. However, people are going to find that Multi-IQ offerings in other modes are quite capable of finding small items. Gold Mode is for people who need to push that small item finding capability to the limit.

I don't consider Gold Mode to be the big factor that differentiates the Equinox 600 from the Equinox 800. In my mind it is the advanced audio and discrimination functions as outlined in my first article above along with the extra control over the Detect Speed that make the Equinox 800 truly desirable for more advanced users. I can't imagine giving up the ability to fully customise all my tone breaks and tones as is offered in the Equinox 800.

I have to admit that when coming from detectors that costs many thousands of dollars I find the idea of "saving" $250 to not be even on my radar. I am many thousands of dollars ahead by selling the many machines my Equinox replaces. However, I do want people to understand that for raw horsepower, Equinox 600 will find virtually anything the Equinox 800 will find. There is no compromise on Multi-IQ going from one machine to the other. The advantage in Gold Mode is real, but it is like it is striving for that last 10% is all, not some magic blow you away oh my gosh I can't believe this sort of thing.

It is fairly obvious that because both machines offer so much capability for so little money that most people are going to just go for the Equinox 800 automatically. That being the case some savings on the purchase may be lost on resale because the Equinox 600 may not hold value as well as the Equinox 800.

 

Steve,

Thanks for setting me straight on Multi IQ for 600/800.  Since Multi IQ implements all 5 frequencies in both cases I am even more flummoxed as to why ML did not just include Gold mode on the 600 (sans the ability to individually select the two highest frequencies) or am I incorrect in assuming that Gold Mode uses Multi IQ?

In any event, ML may inadvertently be highlighting Gold Mode as THE prime delta between the 600 and 800 models because it is the most visible difference as highlighted in the marketing materials.  While I agree with you 100% that it is the other missing features (non-ferrous tone adjustments and finer reactivity control) that are the real difference makers that should matter to even the casual coin shooter.  I would gladly pay the cost difference for the 800 to be able to have them.  A previous poster stated that these features are nether understood, appreciated, needed by most detectorists.  I agree with the “understood” and “appreciated” part of the above statement but not with the “needed” part.  I consider these features to indeed be needed and the fact that detectorist may miss that point because of the focus on the Gold Mode difference is a pity IMO.

40 minutes ago, Mike Buck said:

Chase,

You have me wondering now, but the Multi IQ diagram taken from Minelab's site seems to imply my statement earlier that the 20 and 40 just aren't available as single frequency options on the 600, but will run in the multi frequency for it.  

Steve - Can you clarify for us?  I would like to get purchase the 600, but if it won't run the 20 and 40 in multi, that may change my mind.  Thanks!!!

Mike,

I missed the note on that diagram.  I believe you have it correct and I am incorrect in assuming 20 and 40 are not available in multi IQ mode.  When Steve clears it up for us, then I will correct my post.  I was apparently confusing Minelab’s 3Fx3 and 5Fx5 lingo with Multi IQ but they apparently only apply to single frequency mode.  I blame the marketeers for ambiguously translating the engineering speak into marketing speak.  Lol.  My sincerest apologies and thanks for teaching me yet another thing I did no know about the equinox.

ps. Steve confirmed your understanding of how Multi IQ works for both the 600 and 800 while I was typing this reply. Thanks for hanging in there and setting me straight.

1 hour ago, Redneck said:

Chase , another area where the EQX may outshine the mighty Deus is by using the 6" coil, as the Deus 's smallest coil is the 9" er. 

Agree, to an extent, but XP has made strides with the Deus 9x5 elliptical form factor HF Coil that is great for restricted areas like cellar holes and has separation like a laser pointer.  In fact, it was the success that folks were having with high conductors operating that coil at 28 khz and even 74 khz that ironically got me even more excited about the Equinox 800's 5Fx5 Multi IQ capability.  That technology plus an attached 6-inch Sniper coil may unseat the Deus in this regard.

22 minutes ago, vfp7 said:

IMHO
Apparently the hardware component of 600 and 800 should be the same ...

 

I agree. I wish that Minelab had made the 600 extensible in that the underlying hardware infrastructure and user interface was exactly the same as the 800, so you could start with the economy 600 and then unlock the 800 features with a paid upgrade down the road.  But with the faceplate "hard" keys, etc., it appears that upgrade avenue is, unfortunately, closed off,  for now.

34 minutes ago, Mike Buck said:

Chase,

 

I'm pretty sure the 600 will be able to run 20 and 40 khz in multi - you just can't run them as individual frequencies like you can on the 800.  Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is what I've been understanding from a few threads posted on here.

Thanks - Mike.  

Thanks, Mike.

The Minelab site shows the 600 as having Multi IQ 3Fx3 whereas the 800 has Multi IQ 5Fx5.  Don't take my word for it, it is described in detail on the respective Minelab 600 and 800 product pages.  

"Chase"

I am glad that Minelab included a lower price point Equinox that helps deliver MOST of the goods for those detectorists on a limited budget.  But for those just shopping for a bargain, I cannot help but think that it may leave many a detectorist wanting for more once they realize that you may be leaving behind more than just a Gold Prospecting mode if you choose to invest in the economy machine and there is really no upgrade path even with the capability of software updates, other than ultimately purchasing the 800.   Be careful about just focusing in on the high frequency capability difference, and dismissing the difference as an unneeded capability just because you may not be a gold nugget prospector. There is more to the differences between the two than meets the eye. Part of the confusion lies in the fact that there is not hard and fast comparison between the two that I can find online, at least in relation to the capability (not just feature) differences between the two detectors. Also, even if you are not a gold prospector, high frequency capability is not something that should be of interest to the gold prospector, it enables capabilities that are also of interest to the relic hunter and even the coin shooter (more on that below).

The following comparative information is what I can ascertain from reviewing the Minelab 600/800 quick start guide and other online sources.  Please respond with corrections or to point out omissions or misinterpretations that I may have included in the discussion below.  I do not want to intentionally pass on misinformation.

Waterproof: Both will be waterproof and submersible to 3 meters.

Multi IQ: Both will incorporate the Multi IQ technology - the 800 will have the edge on the 600 because it will be able to simultaneously utilize the two higher frequencies of 20 and 40 khz as part of the Multi IQ scan signal whereas the 600 cannot, obviously, because it cannot transmit at those two higher frequencies. This is important not just for gold nugget prospectors but for those who are also relic hunters that detect small and mid-conductive targets like buttons and brass artifacts that will be more detectable when using the higher frequencies of the 800 in either discrete or Multi IQ mode. This is of less importance to coin shooters who focus primarily on high conductive silver coins (unless of course you are also into hammered coins or US nickels, both of which are considered mid-conductive targets). Furthermore, there is evidence based on recent experience with the new Deus HF coils, that doing general searching in the higher frequencies in areas with high iron concentrations and especially deep iron actually enhances the ability to unmask shallower mid AND high conductive targets such as buttons and silver coins. So, besides gold nugget prospecting, the HF frequencies also have a role in helping to unmask not-so-deep silver from iron, and that DOES matter to the coin shooter.

Reactivity/Recovery: It is not clear that there will be a difference in the ultimate high-end or low-end recovery speed of the 600 vs. 800 but from what I can tell, you will have less adjustability with the 600 with only 3 levels vs. 8 levels of adjustability with the 800. Coming from the Deus, having a finer control over reactivity/recovery which enables you to balance separation vs. depth is a distinct advantage. XP added another level of adjustability on reactivity/recovery in its latest software update to the Deus based on customer demand.

Preset Detect Modes and User Profiles: Obviously the "Gold" Detect Mode is absent from the 600, but as I said before, the high frequency capability does not just enhance gold mode detecting. There is an instant user profile settings save button on the faceplate of the 800, this button does not exist on the 600. Both detectors are capable of saving up to 2 different custom search mode profiles for each search mode setting (Park, Field, Beach, Gold (800 only)).

Non-Ferrous and Threshold Tone Selection: Only the 800 will provide the capability to customize Threshold Tone settings and Non-Ferrous Tone Volume, Pitch, and Tone breaks vs. the 600 which will only have a single default setting for these parameters. This is important to me because I have partial hearing loss and ability to adjust tone pitch and volume is critical. Adjustable tone breaks also enable me to better set up tones consistent with enabling my desired targets of interest to punch through the noise better.

Wireless Audio: Both detectors support wireless audio including the connection of up to FOUR wireless modules (which means that you can have 4 sets of ears listening to a single detector - not sure how this could be used outside of a learning environment, but it may open up some interesting possibilities. First one to actually dig the target wins...lol). The 800 will include a wireless headset and WM08 module. The 600 will come with a set of non-waterproof wired headphones.

Are the differences worth the $250 price differential? That is for each of us individually to decide (I know my answer) and of course for many, even if they wanted those capabilities, affordability is the key when resources are limited. I just wanted to point out that the differences between the two detectors is more than just a Gold Prospecting search mode. The way I think about those additional 800 capabilities is that it is like paying for an included additional accessory coil that is incompatible with the 600 (even if you were willing pay the extra $250 down the road after investing in the 600) because they consist of fundamental hardware and software differences and capabilities (extra faceplate buttons, additional transmit frequencies) between the two detectors that cannot be simply added on later with future software updates to the 600. So you are, in essence, kind of stuck with what you get and, for me, having that constraint is not worth the savings.

HTH and HH

 welcome your comments, additions, and refutations.

"Chase"

Steve,

I am loving this forum.  Just joined.  What you have been saying about using full tones, integrating the audio, using the display as confirmation, and interrogating iffy targets really resonates with me.  I am primarily a Deus user (but use a Minelab GPX 4800 in the mineralized farm fields of central Virginia for relic hunting) and this is exactly how I use the Deus.  I am really excited about the Equinox because I have been waiting for Minelab to integrate multi-frequency technology with high recovery speed - waterproof, wireless, and an intuitive user interface/ergonomics are just icing on the cake.  This is sort of the missing link for Minelab and the reason why I have (until now) stayed away from Minelab VLF/FBS machines despite the rock solid target IDs they produce, especially on deep silver.  I recognize that Minelab may have to compromise a little on deep silver capability with the Equinox Multi IQ system vs. the CTX FBS for both technological as well as marketing reasons (why would they want to obsolete their own flagship detector?) and they have said as much on their website when comparing Multi IQ to FBS/BBS.  Regardless, the combination of features (waterproof, relatively light weight, Multi IQ, high recovery speed, and wireless audio) are killer.  I originally envisioned the Equinox (with Multi IQ) as a gap filler for my Deus with respect to salt water/beach hunting where the Deus does not fare well and perhaps as an alternative non-PI detector choice for relic hunting in highly mineralized soil (I use the Deus in Gold Field mode for this when I am not using the GPX).  However, I never envisioned the Equinox as a REPLACEMENT for my Deus.  Other than the feather light and compact nature of the Deus (I like it as a most capable grab 'n'  go detector and as a low profile machine to enable me to no draw a lot of attention when hunting in public places like parks and beaches), I am starting to realize that that the Equinox may be more than just a niche gap filler and may indeed become my go to machine.   This is based solely on the way you describe how you use the Equinox.  First hand experience will tell the tale but at this point I am super excited about this machine and what it can unlock for me.

One thing I am excited about is the HF capability of the Equinox 800 and it has nothing to do with gold prospecting.  As you know, XP released its first HF coils for the Deus in 2017 and you successfully tested them with some favorable results.  A group of us regular Deus users for relic hunting are starting to realize that the HF coils may have usefulness beyond their increased sensitivity to gold and other mid-conductive targets.  We are finding that they actually are enabling us to pluck high conductive targets (in addition to the expected mid-conductive buttons and brass) out of the ground better than the lower frequencies in some cases.  This is obviously counterintuitive but it is happening on a wide enough scale and frequency that we believe this is not just a coincidence.  We have not figured out why but some are speculating that the reduced ground penetration afforded by the HF modes are enabling shallower high conductive targets to be unmasked where they would otherwise be masked by deep, large iron BELOW the non-ferrous target of interest (vs. iron at or above the same depth of the desired non-ferrous target).  Just wanted your thoughts on this and whether the 800's HF frequencies in Multi-IQ mode can perhaps out-Deus the Deus in this regard?  Minelab certainly seems to be headed in the right direction with Equinox and it is refreshing that they are paying more attention to user interface design, ergonomics, and cost vs. just throwing a new detector technology approach at its customers.  Thanks and keep up the good work.