☠ Cipher

11 hours ago, Matt4gold said:

You may want to take the MX5 out for a few hours. With the right coil, such as a small coil (4x6 shooter) it’s a great single frequency detector. The one I had was as deep and almost as hot as the MX Sport. Personally I liked  the tones better than the Sport.  Pin point locks the ground tracking and the suspend mode was nice while digging a target.  Heck keep it in your car or truck and use it as a backup or loner. 

What do you think of it compared to the Simplex? That’s my backup/loaner at this point. Other than Deus 2 I’m probably not looking to keep anything new. 

I just didn’t have the heart to ask him to take less. I figured that in asking $225 he probably really only wanted $200, but I just went with well enough on this one. I especially didn’t want to let the TRX get away. Ever since Whites went out of business I wished I had bought an extra. Now I have one if anything happens to my original. 

After I bought it I remembered that I had a non-Vrated Super 12” concentric I had mistakenly bought for my V3i. I checked the 9” Spider that came stock on the MX5 and it’s V-rated, so I’ll be keeping that for the V3i and I mounted the Super 12 on the MX5. I must say I’m very impressed with preliminary air tests with either coil on the MX5. It’s a beast. I had no idea 

So I got an extra or backup Bullseye TRX, a 50” gold sluice, and 9” concentric for my V3i out of it. Come spring I’ll make all or more than I paid back out of the rest. 

I’m always combing through the buy, sell, trade mediums to find great deals on machines and gear. Releases like the Simplex and Vanquish have really placed a new ceiling on the value of older equipment. Still, I thought this was a good deal.

Whites MX5 Metal Detector

Whites Bullseye TRX 

Keene 50” gold sluice box 

Garret gold pan and classifier 

assorted diggers

Beach scoop (mid end)

$225

I went ahead and bought the lot so I could keep the bullseye Trx and gold sluice. The rest will be sold later in the year. 

XP has a good strategy in putting the Deus 2 out there early in some users hands. Seeing what it can do seems to have had a very positive outcome and it’s not uncommon to find comments in the threads where demonstrations have given interested people the impetus to go ahead and preorder, with some even cancelling their Legend preorder and deciding to spend that extra $1,000. I’m closer to purchase of a Deus 2 than I’ve ever been myself, but there are still a few more tests I’d like to see and I’d like to see what the Legend looks like sooner rather than later. So far I’ve not seen anything out of Legend that inspires the kind of confidence and readiness for prime time coming out of the XP camp. XP seems proud as a peacock of what they’ve done here and content to let it speak for itself even in some hands that would’ve torn it to shreds had it not been up to par. 

It doesn’t seem factory presets are leaving much depth on the table either, but I’d be curious to see what those last few levels do for depth in a low EMI environment too. I know the main competitor is determined and heavily focused on EMI handling in their next model, which is a good game plan. Deus 2 seems to handle EMI a little better at this point. 

5 hours ago, midalake said:

I am going to go out on a limb, that from this point forward in history it will be very difficult to out do/out smart factory preset modes in most cases.  With today's processors and more complicated processes, there are just too many built in issues to overcome for a button tweaker.     

Deus 2 definitely comes hot out of the box and it seems a lot of thought went into presets here, but there are likely going to be situations where it’ll need to be toned down, which is usually not the case. Most machines leave a bit on the table for the stake of stability. XP must be pretty confident that this machine can be run on the razors edge in a wide range of environments though. I think Reactivity will also remain one for the tweakers, having such obvious impact on depth and separation. Notch and audio preferences also vary quite a bit among us and from environment to environment. It is a nice feature to be able to eliminate common pests like bottlecaps at the press of a button and I’d like to see more target specific disc features like that. 

6 hours ago, F350Platinum said:

Yeah, it's tough when you have to buy something to review it 🙄 I like the Propointer AT, but knowing which of the targets I'm after seemed too good to be true. I apologize to Cipher for hijacking.🏴‍☠️ 

I should have kept that lead pellet I dug with the Equinox yesterday... 🤔

I’m just getting around to reading all this now. I don’t see it as hijacking at all. I appreciate your information. It’s an interesting new gadget for sure. 

Single core computers are good for word processing and lots of other tasks. They were eventually phased out by multiple core computers with multiple simultaneous co-processing units. Things move much slower in the metal detecting world, but in the end things evolve toward faster and more efficient processing of increasingly complex data. Evolution and natural selection apply to technology as well as anything. You’re seeing it unfold in single frequency vs multifrequency. There may always be specialty machines, but I doubt they will always be configured as they are now either, and in terms of all terrain do it all machines single frequency is looking backward. It’s a dead end. It’s obsolete. Selectable frequency, Multifrequency, mixed domain, and faster processing of more data from more sources is evolution. As people vote with their hands and their wallets natural selection is already taking place and we are evolving toward a more complex system better able to cope with the extreme ends of performance and giving more reliable data even under ordinary circumstances. As efficiency improves that complexity can be hidden away from the end user, but it is still operating and it makes a smarter system. 

At some point the entire metal detector industry has to reach peak saturation of sales. It’s been hot for a while with the release of Equinox and Vanquish, added to the popularity of treasure hunting shows and YouTube metal detecting channels. But at some point everyone who has wanted to try metal detecting and can afford to has given it a go. In the US anyway most people don’t stick with it. There’s less to find and more competition for what is out there. As more people give up the used market gets more of the market share. The stock market is all about projection, even if it’s based on the thinnest suspicion about what the future holds. You can bet Codan investors would be looking at things like market saturation, the second hand market, competitor projections and projected releases, inflation, the economic condition overall and how much disposable income is out there, gas and energy prices (when high people sit home or travel less), chip shortages, supply line issues. All these factors seem to be going the opposite way investors might feel comfortable with. There’s also more hedge fund predators tanking stock than ever before and you never know when they’ve got their eye on a given company until you do see a sharp and sudden drop in stock. War in Afghanistan has ended, as the West backs off from the Middle East. That could affect countermine sales. You’ve got Covid and Covid restrictions ebbing and flowing. New treasure hunting legislation in the UK. More around the world as the hobby has grown and garnered more attention. 
 

Im wondering how much a next generation hobby machine would really boost stock. It would be hard to imagine since it would seem targeted at the top tier of detectorists, a smaller piece of the pie. You can ask for a higher profit margin from those folks, but it wouldn’t seem enough to make up for the volume at the low to mid tier. Maybe if they kept it around $1,500. Deus is very common to see out there despite its tag. CTX at $2,500 has been more of a unicorn to see out there and at rallies. The used market is saturated with CTXs. Anybody who wants one will have no trouble finding one between $1200-$1500 often loaded with accessories. 

All I need to hear is that Deus 2 is every bit the Deus 1 as Deus 1. I’m looking for that advantage in iron, and whether their multifrequency stacks up would just be a bonus. If Deus 2 somehow misses the operating characteristics of Deus 1 while trying to capture what the Equinox brought to the table then I’m out and looking for a Deus 1. I have a pair of bone phones btw. I bought them for $5 at a lawn sale. They work awesome and you can still hear your surroundings. I don’t like headphones and never wear them unless I have to. Bone phones are the closest I can come to not using headphones if I have to wear something to be silent. 
 

I can’t begrudge you for changing your mind on the purchase either. I can’t guarantee that I won’t within the next hours or days buy one or both new machines myself. I talk myself into and out of it so often I can’t know what tomorrow brings. I love my tech toys and metal detectors are no exception. Deus 2 seems to bring much more to the table than Legend. I’m just not in the market for a bargain detector anymore, particularly a duplicate of one I already own and comfortable with. I want the top tier from here out. 

I can’t wait to hear your report. It will weigh heavily with me personally. I’m also in the market for an XP at some point, just not sure which one. 

I knew I had seen the guy from the Nokta Makro commercial before. It’s Steve Buscemi lol. 

3 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I'm looking right at it, so not sure what the issue is on your end.

It’s been corrected since last night. It wasn’t embedded and link was a dead end but he fixed it.

Link is not working for some reason 

On 11/20/2021 at 4:39 PM, palzynski said:

I fully agree with that , Legend looks like a nox clone , except for the telescopic shaft . Then I am on the Deus2 too , as I have been using XP detectors since a few years now 🙂 and always happy with them , starting with the Goldmaxx in 2007 👍 ...

This even I would have preferred a Lite version instead of the "full" version because I dont really need the Deus2 control box... 

…and not just a Nox clone either. They’ve even borrowed from the FBS line with a graphic on Fe:Co. This was a missed opportunity for Minelab to have omitted, or not have carried over such a feature. Ferrocheck is really the most attractive feature of the Legend in my view. It’s creating quite a buzz in threads all over. If it proves a successful unit, that feature is going to be very popular on it. 

4 hours ago, CPT_GhostLight said:

We are living in interesting times. While two or three companies have made press releases of their new flagship model detectors, they are in fact playing catch-up to another company's three year old mid-line detector and there have been no direct impartial real world tests comparing their performances in real scenarios yet. The real race has not even started yet as all of the players are not at the gate. Post your bets, folks! 😎

Well said. I don’t think it was a good look to be taking so many pot shots at a company they’ve borrowed (to put it mildly) so heavily from either. A thank you would’ve sufficed lol. 

On 11/20/2021 at 8:33 AM, basstrackerman said:

Why do in feel like Nokta Makro copy other manufacturers? This new one has alot of similarities of the equinox. The simplex I feel had alot of similarities to the deus, Fast mode (park 2) deep (park 1) pitch mode (field) same shape shaft. The lower rod on the simplex fits in the deus and it's an odd shape. No other manufacturers use that shape for the shaft as far as I know. So I'm guessing they copy electronics also which is why they can get new detectors to market faster. Change some cosmetics, copy electronics and bam new detector. The first ones were alot like Fisher, now nox with deus in between. Lol. Am I wrong?

You are not completely off base. We would not like what NM is doing if it were a Chinese company. Sometimes the only difference is NM is coming in through the front door with a product that at least looks a bit different, while the Chinese are climbing in through the bathroom window with clones. In some ways NM is climbing to the top by underselling the innovations of the Equinox. To what degree idk, but I suspect one of the issues they have with the term “multi-IQ” is a legal one. Once you describe, label, and patent a technology it becomes your protected intellectual property and more difficult for others to duplicate and market it, so they prefer to refer to it generically as “simultaneous multifrequency.” NM does have some innovations of their own, like the PulseDive, built in vibration and LED, but until they are more innovative with the full machines outside of exterior build, many of us are going to feel much like you are. It has caused very mixed feelings in me. Yesterday’s presentation resurrected those feelings. Technologically, It felt like simply a duplicated and repackaged equinox. I think they are capable of their own contributions. I’ve seen their work in imaging. All companies borrow from each other and evolve. It’s just a question of to what degree and where the line is drawn. If Minelab feels anyone has crossed that line they have a way of letting them know. Time will tell. So far, nobody has sued NM that I’m aware of, so we have to assume that while it doesn’t make good optics, they are within their bounds. 

On 11/20/2021 at 4:45 AM, Steve Herschbach said:

XP Deus II at $1599

versus

Nokta/Makro Legend at $635

Is Deus II worth over double the price? And how do both match up against Multi-IQ? Only head to head field tests will tell, but this looks like a real grudge match if I ever saw one!

The price of the Legend is kind of shocking. I expected it to be maybe $100 cheaper than an Equinox 800, but over $300?! I’m a bit more suspicious than others about what NM is up to with moves like this. It’s nice to save $300, or in the case of Deus II $1000, if all else is equal, but what long term effect does this have on industry innovators? Is NM trying to raise the bar on competition, or purposely trying to make it unaffordable for them to compete and continue to innovate by adopting and then underselling the product. And personally I’ve never wanted everyone in the world to take up metal detecting, as I know what that does to our hobby, so making it more affordable is not appealing to me. I’m not rich by any means, and some sectors of this hobby are too expensive, but I’m fine with the price of admission and advantages being harder to come by. It’s taken me years to get where I am and I’m ok with that. So I think we have to ask ourselves a couple questions. Are these companies overselling us by that much or is NM trying to crush them with their own innovations? Is the truth in between even? Do we really want Metal Detecting to become so much more affordable and popular? While the new machines and things might seem good right now what are the long term effects of all of this for us and for those who take the expensive and time consuming chance to lead and innovate? 
 

Im kind of picking on NM here when both XP and NM have kind of repackaged Minelab’s technology and now selling it back to us. I’m just worried that the long term effect of this will be to make it not worth the bother to innovate. That this is a Walmart kind of maneuver. Come in, temporarily undersell, shut down the competition, raise prices back up after they are gone. I could also be way off base, IDK, but it’s been on my mind. 

I wonder if we will see as many spin offs and variations of multifrequency machines from NM as we have single frequency machines. I’d imagine they’d want to set their sights on the space between Simplex and Legend to better target Vanquish maybe. Simplex Multi anyone? 

4 minutes ago, King-Of-Bling said:

They don't necessarily have to give the other up , just add on.

This is true. At the price it’s not really that big of a gamble. I’m sure it’s not going to be garbage. The performance may be more varied and nuanced than many of us are thinking as well. There may be things it can edge the equinox out on and there may be things the equinox is better at. Any advantage anywhere in this hobby is hard fought and often expensive. An arsenal full of the best is the only way to ensure you have all the advantages. 

On 11/16/2021 at 10:24 PM, UtahRich said:

It has been a good one. Arguably from my standpoint, the best I've had. Easily the best all round detector i've had. 

And keep in mind, while Equinox is a high performance unit and we consider it as such, Minelab only considers it a mid level, mid priced unit, with bigger ideas and vision for its next unit, hopefully with lessons learned from their mistakes with Equinox. This next unit to me is the main event. It’s what makes me a little more reserved about jumping on others attempts to catch what Minelab has already done. I’m excited about what comes next if this is only mid level in their eyes.

1 hour ago, King-Of-Bling said:

What kind of house it's built on ? Well I would say the coil ears serve as the foundation , literally. The footings aren't going to roll in an earthquake like the Nox does. And I'm pretty confident I can hold this puppy underwater without murdering it. That's just for starters. The list goes on...

We get that the build is more robust. We took that for a given. We’ve moved on from that from before the word go. I’m referring to its root performance. I’m not going to assume anything in this regard, sight unseen. Nobody being wise would. If it doesn’t perform as well or better than it’s competition the features built on top of it would just be window dressing. I’m not going to assume that It isn’t a solid performer either. I’m sure it’s entirely possible we could be surprised when it reaches real users hands. If a person doesn’t already have SMF machines this might be more enticing and impressive to them. It’s going to take something pretty substantial, more than thick coil ears, to convince someone already holding a proven performer to give it up and buy this. 

Already having an Equinox 800, I didn’t really see anything that called out to me telling me I have to own it just yet until I see some performance tests. That’s what truly matters. You can pile on the features till the cows come home, but I want to see what kind of house they are built on and how it all stacks up. Close won’t be good enough either. It’ll have to match or exceed. As has been pointed out, that’s a tall order, and I didn’t see any specific performance claims of superiority being made at all (other than possibly it’s way of handling some bottle caps). Usually when you have that, it leaks out by this stage, and Nomad testers have  definitely not been an exception to that. Just the opposite. So it’s a wait and see.

2 minutes ago, abenson said:

where was the live event? I registered for it and got no notice via the email I used.

You can go watch it now on their Facebook page