Steve Herschbach

That’s some bad stuff. Here at Lake Tahoe I have similar material. The GPX 6000 and GPZ 7000 won’t fully ground balance on most of it, but they are useable with steady coil control. By that I mean maintain a steady height more than anything, and move at a moderately slow pace to let the autotune keep up.

The Axiom on the other hand will get a clean ground balance on most of it, though mono coils are usually out of the equation - use the DD. However, in extreme places even the DD will not balance, and if you try to the machine goes into an overload state. The solution is to just do a partial ground balance - easiest way is to do the procedure higher off the ground and do let it hit the overload point. Then simply use it like the GPX or GPZ and through good coil control it will work fine. All three in those conditions act more like a regular non-ground balancing PI as any rapid up and down coil motion will signal. Luckily PI in general was designed for this kind of stuff and so is far more forgiving than a VLF when it comes to being out of balance. In some cases NOT being ground balanced will actually give you more depth as this TDI demo shows.

A similar situation exists with the ATX and might be applicable to the Axiom….

This issue is something I’ve been working on for years. The main problem with the Axiom, GPX 6000 and GPZ 7000 are that believe it or not they are too hot on small gold, which accentuates the issues with magnetite. Same issue you saw with the Axiom small FC DD - I wish there were a regular DD for the Axiom as the FC DD are hotter but that hurts with extreme ground issues, the main reason for DD in the first place. I recently got an old Infinium with 14x10 mono coil that will cleanly ground balance in places where these other machines can’t even balance with a DD, let alone mono. This oddly enough is because it’s not as jacked up as the other units, and in the end that works in its favor. That old machine is currently putting a smile on my face as I’d forgot just how unique and fun to use that 14x10 mono is. I can read targets with it better than with almost any other PI combo I’ve used.

There are also spots I nugget hunt in the Sierras like you describe. Serpentine bedrock with magnetite soil. A VLF will call a 30-06 brass shell casing on the surface as ferrous and lose the target at two - three inches. People who have never experienced this stuff think it’s all BS but it’s real all the same.

The GPX 5000 is still the best machine made for this type of conditions as it has some special timings for handling it. They cut the machine way back in some ways but that is what you have to do in the worst ground. This chart is for the 5000 but looked at it another light it shows how less sensitive modes can work better in bad ground than hotter modes, and that applies to all detectors, not just the 5000.

The following chart illustrates the procedure for finding the correct timing for each situation. In general, always start with the Normal timing. If the detector is stable and quiet, try timings on the left - Sensitive Extra, Sharp, or in rare cases, Coin/Relic. If ground noise or hot rocks present problems in Normal, then try timings on the right - Fine Gold, Enhance, or Sensitive Smooth. Salt settings should generally only be used on alkali ground (salt flats) or salt water beaches, but may have applications in other ground. The goal is always to find the most powerful setting that allows for stable operation. Each timing can be adjusted within certain parameters, primarily through the use of the Gain and Stabilizer settings. Adjusting for a lower Gain, for example, may be preferable to going to a less powerful timing.

Finally, each timing may work best with a certain type of coil (DD or Mono) and the timings have varying level of resistance to Electro Magnetic Interference (EMI). The matrix below attempts to show which timings offers which benefits and strengths/weaknesses.

The simple chart below can be printed out and taped or glued on your detector shaft as a reminder in the field as to which timing may be best. Click on the image to download a large version.

16 minutes ago, RONS DETECTORS MINELAB said:

That 6” gb2 concentric looks great on that orx.

😳

Seriously, I'd buy a machine like that in two seconds. Controller in pocket, the rod and coil would probably come in at under a pound, and be hotter than a pistol on tiny gold. A gold snipers dream for pockets and crevices.

On 1/18/2024 at 2:00 PM, Aureous said:

XP detectors have always been just a serious coin/relic machine to us here in Oz, so they're always 'off the radar' when it comes to VLF gold prospecting. If you praise the Orx Jeff, perhaps its worth a serious look. Here in Oz, they are $200 cheaper than even the Nokta Legend!

I know people have heard me complain about the limitations imposed by wireless coils before, but just imagine what an ORX with a 4x6 elliptical identical the the one for the Gold Bug 2 would be like. The Gold Bug 3 that I always wanted, selectable frequency with three main options for both large and small gold - 14, 28 and 74 kHz

I would not worry about it much as the 6" concentric is the go to coil. The 4x6 DD is weaker than I'd expect. I think that is because White's built a 1/2" air space into the bottom of the coil. I got one as I intended to cut the bottom off, since the windings themselves are actually set in epoxy like the old Fisher Gold Bug 2 small coil. Getting the tiny bits in proximity to the winding is key, and I thought I might be onto something. But then White's went under, and I sold my entire White's package. When Garrett picked it up..... well, now I wished I'd kept the coil to at least do that experiment. But again I think the 6" concentric is the optimum coil, gets better sensitivity and depth than the 4x6 DD.

59 minutes ago, phrunt said:

I've been trying to get one for ages now, appears impossible.

The 4x6 DD really never had many sold by itself, they mainly got sold with the introductory GMX Sport package. That was neat detector in that it was a waterproof 24K and came with both the 6" concentric and 4x6 DD initially. I've been trying to talk Garrett into selling the 24K stock with the 6" round instead of 6x10 DD. Anyway, this was all right at the end of White's, very few GMX produced, but the best way to get that coil might be to shop for a GMX instead of just the coil itself. Again, because almost none were sold separately.

White's originally designed and made the 24K. They also made an underwater version, the GMX Sport. Four coils were produced, 8x14 DD, 6x10 DD, 6" round concentric, and a 4x6 DD. The 4x6 was only made for the GMX right before White's went out of business. Garrett has since taken over White's and makes the 24K, plus the 6x10 and 6" round coils. They have not reproduced the 8x14 or 4x6 DD coil. The only way to get them is to find a used one. Both are rare since they were made a short while, and the 4x6 DD in particular rare as hen's teeth. I regret selling the one I had.

4 hours ago, DIG5050 said:

Hey Steve H, or anyone else for that matter, know if Garrett people ever visit this forum?

Of course they do, as well as representatives from the other detector and coil manufacturers. Representatives from Nokta, Fisher, XP, Coiltek, Detech, and Nugget Finder have all posted at one time or another. There are others. Garrett and Minelab watch but if they are members it’s incognito. I tried to get Garrett to actively participate but like Minelab they prefer to watch and listen as opposed to getting directly into the mix. Can’t say I blame them - us detectorists are like a nest of baby birds with endless appetites.  If they say anything it will generally be via their own Facebook and YouTube channels.

On 1/16/2024 at 11:08 AM, Steve Herschbach said:

But the reality is the Gold Monster totally dominates everything else....... It seems Minelab has come to dominate so much that anything other than a Gold Monster is almost irrelevant.

Just had to quote myself from several pages back. Add Minelab name and marketing plus easy to operate and the Monster sells and sells. You can argue all day long that this or that may be better for whatever reason, but Minelab is what people generally buy. And fact is without them we'd be sitting 20 years back as far as the technology goes overall, so they deserve it for pouring millions into development while other companies tried to milk old cows forever.

2 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

XP ORX detectors with HF 9" round, HF elliptical, or one of the X35 coils and WS wireless audio headphones, charging cables, etc are available in the USA, I mean the entire package with great coil, headphones and remote (some dealers are including a nice XP finds pouch) for $549. 

The quote was from 2022 as this is an old thread that got brought back to life by accident. And looks like Monster is now $799 with the one coil - $999 with two coils. So I will be double checking all the prices what with price changes all hitting with the new year. But yeah, I agree, the ORX is a killer machine for the price, and still makes the Monster look overpriced even at $799. I'd be getting an ORX with a 5x10 HF coil at $549 before I'd ever consider a Monster at $799 with only a 5" coil. They added a second rechargeable battery pack but since it already had a AA pack for backup, I'd much rather have the 10" coil back and they keep the spare rechargeable. But that's just me.

This at $799....

or this at $549....

What's to say? These types of coils have been made for PI detectors for the same reason, to get ground coverage without the weight, with the caveat that you are giving up depth compared to a heavier round coil. They have been used both for patch hunting for gold nuggets and by some beach hunters. They don't get much airplay for the same reason as the Bigfoot and Arrow - people obsess over depth and a round coil will go deeper. 

Jimmy Sierra 18" x 5" coil for TDI / Minelab

Jimmy Sierra 18" x 5" coil for TDI / Minelab

Nugget Finder 30" x 7" Patch Pro for Minelab / TDI

https://www.ebay.com/itm/151962869319

Previous thread on the subject....

40 minutes ago, GoodAmount said:

Steve, I also wonder if there needs to be greater acknowledgement of the impact X-Coils has made on the extended capability of the 7000? I know unsanctioned hacks like these are contentious from an integrity perspective and I completely support an ideological stance on it to this end, but they are now an embedded part of the product ecology and one of the key contributors in keeping the machine in wide circulation and use.

There are many better examples than mine, but last year I stepped up from a QED to a second hand 7000 with a 17x12 X-Coil and immediately more than doubled my gold take. Then with the 8” X-Coil doubled nugget numbers again with the added ability to hit the tiny ones. I’m now quite happily keeping up with my prospecting buddy with his 6000 on small gold. Rightly or wrongly, X-Coils has extended the capability range of the 7000 and I’m wondering if it deserves calling out as a byline in the new review …even if clearly stating that you don’t support it?

That's simply not true. I think the X-Coil is one of the best things that ever happened to 7000 owners, and have friends that love them. They proved what the 7000 was capable of if Minelab had ever truly gave us coil support on the model. My issue was simply disclosure. The risk of the modification being done was totally downplayed initially and people with concerns where treated as if they were irrationally concerned over nothing. Yet I know a guy that blew up two 7000s at huge expense. So yeah, the risks were real. Now, it seems to be under control as better adapters have come about.

To repeat, I think X-Coil did a huge service by producing the coils they have. My only issue was with proper disclosure of the risks involved, which I believe were downplayed initially. And even that really is not on X-Coil as they really don't communicate directly. Nope, nothing but respect for them, and even wish they were running the coil show at Minelab. 

But do I think X-Coil has kept GPZ 7000 users on board when they might otherwise not be? Not really, because I truly believe that a GPZ 7000 with a stock coil is still the best detector option available for getting all the gold possible in a single pass over an area. That is why people use it. A GPX 5000 can hold it's own on the big solid stuff with the 7000 but the 7000 will kill it on specimen gold, no matter how many mods you do. A 6000 hits specimen and smaller gold only marginally better than a 7000, and as you note simply putting an X-Coil on it is enough to bring the 7000 to 6000 levels of performance there. In the end however it is the 7000 ability to punch deeper on big gold than a 6000 that keeps people using the 7000. Do X-Coils help extend the usefulness of the 7000? No doubt about it. But it does not change how I view the machine anyway, which is as the machine to own if you are really serious about wanting to put weight in your pocket. Not numbers - weight. If I have to cover one acre of ground just once, with one machine and one coil, and will never get a shot at that ground again, then I'd pick a GPZ 7000 with a stock coil as being as my best shot at getting the most weight out of the ground in one pass as is possible, both large and small, solid or specimen, but with the emphasis one weight. If a few small bits get missed that not going to matter as much as missing the bigger ones at depth, the real bread and butter that pays the bills.

Gotta admit I don't see anything to do with detecting as right or wrong or ideological. I'm a big fan of just using what works, and anyone thinking they have a corner on knowing exactly what that might be, most especially me, has not been around enough. These things are all just tools and it's about getting to know your tools, and knowing when to use this one or that one. And sometimes that is nothing more than just an educated guess at best. What works in Australia most decidedly will not work in some of my old haunts in Alaska, and that's a fact.

Now after barfing that all out, good idea, I'll mention X-Coil. 

33 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

I totally ditched the GPX 6000 for the Garrett Axiom and I am not sorry I did one bit. The Axiom, even with the weird focused core DD coils that I am still trying to get used to, is just a more fun and much more sensible detector to use and it is plenty sensitive to sub 0.1 gram gold.

Well, the Axiom fan club has at least three members now! 

48 minutes ago, abenson said:

I have the same issue. Garry claims it's a loosely wrapped coil cable that causes that. I can't say one way or the other because I haven't been back out looking for gold with the Manticore since October. But yea it's an issue. That's with the M8

Interesting. Let’s meet for a little Manticore and 24K comparison in that regard. One thing I like about the 24K 6” concentric it is very knock resistant and makes for a good scrubber coil, something I could not do with the Monster. I’ll have to talk about that in my new review as the 24K and Gold Bug 2 are standout machines for coil knock resistance, and that one fact has lead me to favor those two models over the other VLFs. Monster was the worst, and my Gold Kruzer was also very susceptible, but it was a prototype, so I can’t speak to the newer ones. But it was why I ditched the Kruzer and ultimately why I ditched the Monster. When chasing the tiny bits I not only scrub but use the coil as a rake. My Equinox 6” does well in that regard also, does not quite match the Bug 2 or 24K on the tiniest bits, yet it’s very close. Amazingly so for a detector when nugget hunting was last on the engineers list of importance.

5 minutes ago, Gold Catcher said:

Good to know that it could play a role. Even though I GB quite frequently and use auto track.

Not saying your ground balance is off. It may be spot on. But where it is at is different than where Simon is, or where I am, and where it is changes the susceptibility to knock. Do an air test, crank the sensitivity, and tap the coil with a wood block. Try setting the ground balance at each extreme and in the middle, and see if there is any difference.

Or you have a bad coil. Been known to happen with Minelab as of late, and due to the higher voltage to the coil tolerances are way higher for Manticore coils than with Equinox coils.

Yeah, little know fact coil knock is related not just to sensitivity, but the ground balance setting. Even suppressed background EMI plays into it, which would give the Manticore more issues than a Monster, the Manticore being a multi.

46 minutes ago, phrunt said:

The Gold Monster is terrible for shallow creek gold hunting, every time its coil enters the water it sounds off as it adjusts its balance or something so in shallow water where its in and out all the time its the most frustrating detector to use. The 24k on the other hand does this seamlessly as do others like the Gold Bug 2 even though its the most sensitive.   The 24k handles hot rocks significantly better than the GM and GB2.  The 24k and GB2 can be used in rocky terrain in its highest sensitivity where the Gold Monster constantly sounds off with its bump sensitivity, The GM and 24k are equally good on small gold to the point I can't tell any small gold performance differences between the two but other factors come into play helping me decide which to use.  My GM is a closet queen, I adapted it to be a pinpointer to try find a use for it and still rarely use that.

In saying all of that, 70% of the time I'd end up using an SMF like the Equinox for prospecting over a dedicated single frequency machine, even in the case of shallow creek detecting as the Equinox is waterproof. and has more features to adjust.  

The Gold Bug 2 for me is the most sensitive to absolutely tiny gold, but has its flaws too, one being using it in and around hot rocks the hot rocks completely null out the gold targets, it will not detect a nugget if a hot rock is in its field of detection.  It was very slow recovery from hitting a hot rock to being able to detect another target, a large part of that time is taken up making its hot rock audio.

Now it's down to splitting hairs these sorts of things are more important than ever in determining if a detector suits someone's needs or not.

Hitting the tiny gold, they can virtually all do it near equally, or close enough for most to never notice any difference.  Now it's down to intricacies between models more than performance.

Detectors like the Equinox having very good gold sensitivity with their large coils are also a factor that shouldn't be discounted.  Depth on bigger gold along with the tiny gold sensitivity and great ground coverage.

I think we are currently looking at the death of the dedicated gold VLF, with the existing models the final ones, the SMF's have taken over and for the most part suit people better than the gold machines with similar performance and more versatility. 

I absolutely agree with all that and more Simon. The Gold Monster can drive some people nuts with coil knock sensitivity. I think it not coming with a normal telescoping rod is a crime. A screw together rod? Really? And as top heavy roll over prone as a Gold Bug 2. I think the 24K does the job as well or better in a better package, with better tuning options. But in the end, so what? People don’t want a Garrett, they want a Minelab.

Ask any dealer what people want and what is selling. Gold Monster all day long and just a smattering of other stuff. That’s just the way it is unless a dealer consciously tries to talk people into something else, and in sales it’s best to give people what they want, not what you think they need. Trying to switch horses can lose a sale as often as not, so you can’t blame most dealers for just going with the flow. And the flow is to the Minelab brand name.

To be fair, the Monster is as close to automatic as they come, and for a lot of people that really matters. You’d be amazed how many people never really comprehend or learn how to ground balance a detector like a Gold Bug 2 properly.

And to you other point, yeah, I agree. I use a VLF so little for nuggets that having a dedicated VLF makes little sense. My Equinox serves the purpose as well or even better for some uses (think large nuggets in steel can infested bucket line tailing piles = Equinox with 15” coil) than all but the hottest nugget VLF on the tiniest bits. 

I have decided I have been patching up this old guide for too long, and so am going to rewrite it from top to bottom, and will post a separate thread about it when I’m done.

The VLF world in particular is weird to consider. For outright performance on tiny gold a Gold Bug 2 is still one of the best. And I actually think the Garrett 24K is a great little detector. As I point out in my last revision, the Nokta Gold Kruzer is an incredible value. But the reality is the Gold Monster totally dominates everything else. Who other than Nenad even uses a Gold Kruzer? A used 24K on our classifieds never did sell, even at a bargain price and with testimonials. Nobody wants a Garrett 24K. It seems Minelab has come to dominate so much that anything other than a Gold Monster is almost irrelevant.

Among the people I associate with everyone uses a PI. And again, nobody I know is dumping a Minelab to get an Axiom. (Edit -I stand corrected, except Jeff McClenden ) I know the 5000 still has fans, but literally everyone I associate with is running a 7000 or a 6000 or both. I guess I could to a large degree just toss the guide out and tell people get a 6000 or 7000 and/or Gold Monster and be done with it. And in the end that’s pretty sound advice. It kind of rankles on me because I think competition is good for all of us, but is there really any competition in the world of the serious gold prospectors, other than Minelab vs Minelab?

12 hours ago, RONS DETECTORS MINELAB said:

The Goldmonster 1000 package with only the 5” coil has a new item #3317-0005 and a map price of $799 for U.S…

The Nokta Goldfinder 2000 has a map price of $595, I have not used this detector yet but am curious how its performance is.

Monster is $999 on all the sites it is for sale on right now so something is not matching up. Lower price for new package with 5” coil only versus old two coil pack? Makes sense if so as $999 was getting too expensive vs the competition, and I’ll rework the commentary if so. With VLF all being so close to each other it often gets down to where the price is at. I don’t think any of them stand out as being “the best” any more. It is more personal preference than anything. At least PI you can still see some measurable differences in performance that matter. A 7000 has a substantial edge over an Axiom. Not twice the depth by a long shot, but definitely inches on the bigger stuff. The smaller the gold the less gap there is between the two to where the Axiom has an edge on the tiniest bits with its small coils. So the nature of the gold matters a great deal, and a VLF is very much the better choice for some locations. There is no one machine that is best for all circumstances, which complicates things and leads to all the internet arguments. Especially from those that must insist what they use is always the best, and everyone else is using second best. 

Most the online guides are click bait. We are moving to a fact free world where only opinion and “influence” matters and experts are looked down on. Nuance does not matter since answers have to fit on bumper stickers or in a tweet. My guide is irrelevant in this new world compared to 20 years ago and just gets lost in the noise. How is the average person to know the difference anymore?

I admit I never paid much attention to the Goldfinder and nobody else has either. Must sell in Africa or something.

10 minutes ago, Drellim said:

Thanks Steve for the info it should help a lot of people out getting started   The best detector is the one you use and learn most are capable  once you learn how to use it  I still have a old gold bug  it has its place 

I started that guide over 20 years ago and have updated it ever since. It served a real need back in the day as there was very little information on gold nugget detectors at all, especially from anyone that had used all of them. But its near outlived its purpose now. The internet is flooded with information, and these days people look more to YouTube. So I'll fine tune this last 2024 update, but it may be the last unless something changes dramatically, which I do not expect. The main issue is the tech maxing out and so it's getting down to splitting hairs between many capable detectors. We are awash now in great VLF detectors in particular, with the multipurpose machines like the Equinox, Legend, Deus, and Manticore all getting so good that the need for a dedicated nugget VLF is fading fast. 

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

Sadly, I think you need to scrap the comment under the 24k that Nel are making coils for it, I can't see that happening now unfortunately 😞

Thanks Simon, I deleted that bit. The good news is the 6” concentric finally arrived after that note was made.

22 hours ago, Minero said:

Have you tested Minelab Xterra Pro?

If anyone has comments on the Quest vs Minelab please post in the comparison forum, not here.

OK, quickie 2024 update done, but will fine tune it as I think about it more over the week. The landscape changed a lot with the Nokta Gold Kruzer being reduced in price to $549. I mean seriously, 61 kHz, full target id, fully submersible, comes with two coils - that is pretty hard to beat as a VLF nugget hunter for the price. I'm sure Minelab still dominates the game with the Gold Monster but at $999 and only one coil now it's getting pricey as a VLF option.

PI pretty much boils down to what you get for the money. If I had to make a living with a nugget detector I'd be using a GPZ 7000. But at $8999 now it is a very expensive option for a lot of people. The GPX 6000 out of the box does better on the tinier gold than the 7000 but lacks it's punch on the weightier gold. Still, big nuggets are rare and so for many people the GPX 6000 at $2500 less ($6499) is the best value. And finally you have the Garrett Axiom, which in a nutshell offers 90% of the performance of a GPX 6000 for 60% of the price at $3995. Despite rumors of it being discontinued the GPX 5000 is still available for about the same price as the Axiom, and although I think the Axiom has the edge on tiny gold, the 5000 is still a great value for hunting larger nuggets at depth when paired with larger coils. If big gold at depth is the name of the game, if I could not afford a GPZ 7000 I'd be looking at the GPX 5000 as the alternative over both the 6000 and Axiom.

That's a lot of hard patient work but the reward is obvious. I'm a little horrified seeing the fine gold scattered around the scale though.  Anyway, good on you John, you certainly earned it!

I'm an Alaskan living in Nevada. Looks like maybe time to update my old nugget guide........