Steve Herschbach

You may not understand the language but just watch it.....

Has anyone ever used both or at least the Detech and have any comments at all? I'm confident enough in the Commander but wonder if the Detech might be a better option. Basically going to use for looking for coins and better yet rings at the beach so don't care about hitting tiny bits, in fact prefer not doing that.

Detech has the spec edge at 780 grams versus Commander at 820 grams. Detech is rated waterproof whereas Commander is only rainproof.

Commander coils I am pretty sure are Litz wire. Not sure about the Detech.

9 hours ago, Knomad said:

NOTE - I did not pick that 00 00 ground balance, it is what the machine apparently defaults to if it cannot ground balance even in manual ground balance mode.

I would like to see them add the ability to manually tweak the ground balance, at least a few numbers like some other machines.

I do understand what you are saying and a lot of my comments are just for the general audience reading this thread. I know you are not picking the 00 00 setting per se but you are in a way, by trying to balance on ground that is overloading it, forcing it to go to 00 00. Do a reset and just don't ground balance at all. Or do a partial ground balance higher above the ground, or on milder soil nearby. Just don’t let it get to 00 00. The guy shows what I am talking about in this video.

I would test both without any ground balance at all, and at the 00 00 setting. Set your other controls like you have been doing, and see what gives the best result. Since you are not ground balancing there is ground response normally, but a PI is forgiving and coil control can compensate. Your settings should suppress that in any case.

Just making some suggestions and I appreciate what you are saying and passing along, more information is always good, and I’ll give it a go myself and report back, thanks!

In proper tuning technique we are not supposed to tune detectors to targets in the air. The main goal should be to tune the detector for stable operation against the ground. Only by getting properly tuned to the ground can you get the best performance. That may mean it does not detect as deep or as small of objects in the air - but we are not detecting in the air. Detectors can only do what they do and so you tune up for the ground, and then you get what you can get. If your detector is not up to the task, then get a different detector, but no tuning magic will give you air depth in the ground. In some places you will get half the depth or less of what air tests show, and in the rarest location, detectors will not work at all.

Added the E1500 to the Detector Database and noticed that due to the company name starting with an A they will be first in alphabetical lists. Smart move that even if it was not planned. It is why you see so many triple A company names.

11 minutes ago, Knomad said:

Who in their right mind would even try such settings

Me for one. I was running a similar ultralow sensitivity while coin detecting in a park with the Axiom.

I would expect it would work better if you did not ground balance it into the 00 00 set point but would use the default GB setting instead, or do as I described in an earlier response to you and get it close without going over the edge. I honestly have not tried 00 00 however as I made an incorrect assumption the machine was crapped out with that indication, so worth a go both ways. But yeah, people for some reason think setting like 1 are put on detectors as placeholders that serve no purpose. If it was never supposed to be run on 1 it would not have that setting. A majority of detectorists (not saying you, just in general) do not seem to understand that the ground determines the gain settings. If you go too high in bad ground the blowback from the ground actually means LESS DEPTH. Reducing the sensitivity and other related settings to appropriate amounts gives BETTER DEPTH. It does not matter what the settings are per se, just that they are just below the tipping point into the blowback situation.

Good to hear it sounds like you are having fun!

1 hour ago, jasong said:

Thanks for the answers to all those questions I asked. I have one more, feel free not to answer this though. 😄The US allows equipment that isn't FCC approved yet for things like "experimental use" or something similar. Are you allowed to sell to someone in the US for such experimental type use, or does the fact the item is exchanged for money void it from that classification?

I will just say that I know of detector testing by all companies including U.S. companies prior to FCC certification because you can’t certify unrealized product and can’t make product without tests. But where the lines and limitations are to that I don’t know.

You know darn well people order detectors from overseas all the time and use them here even though they are not FCC certified. It’s not like the FCC has spies behind every tree and the detectors probably comply anyway. They just did not pay to be tested.

ok one last comment before I let it go……

The thing is seven years ago I laid out a challenge for a decent built reasonably priced PI detector for people who frankly are not a lot of the forum members as far as I can tell. If buying a $900 multi or maybe at most a $1200 multi is a stretch for somebody, then these $4000 plus options are out of reach for these people. If I can buy a top notch VLF for $900 -$1200 then in my mind I should be able to get a top notch PI for no more than twice that or $1800 to $2400. I sold detectors and trust me, you talk to a guy with a $700 detector and tell him he needs this $8000 detector and he looks at you like you are insane. I have been and always will advocate for power at affordable prices, and the nature of technology means it is inevitable. I’m just trying to help it along.

I emailed AlgoForce the day I saw this pop up and got a very nice personal response from Ruifeng Huang, or Alex as he asks to be called.  I’m a fan for sure based on the way he thinks he needs to respond to us to give us what we want. Refreshing to say the least. I hope he won’t mind me sharing this tidbit….

”Believe it or not, our E1500 was inspired by your “Under 4 Pound, Under $2000 Gbpi Challenge” about two and a half years ago.”

That is gratifying because that thread was made knowing that it would be seen by every company out there. I’ve been around a long time pushing and shoving and holding my breath until I’m blue in the face to get what I want, and I have learned that consistently expressing my desires in a respectful and logical fashion for long enough does actually make a difference. I’m proud to have moved the needle in the right direction in many small ways, and this is the icing on the cake as far as I am concerned.

So yeah, I’m a fan and I’d be crazy not to get an E1500 after asking for one for seven years and them finally delivering on what I was asking for. A decent performing ergonomic PI at a decent price. That’s not shooting for the moon, it’s just a reasonable request, and I never thought it would take seven years for it to happen. But it has, and I do think we finally have a winner! Now if it prompts other companies to respond with their own offerings, that also was the goal. I believe heart and soul in competition being the way forward and so I hope very much that Nokta, Garrett, Fisher, and yes, Minelab and others decide to play in this game also. Because whoever builds the next $2000 PI will have to build one at least as good or better than the E1500, or why bother? Fully waterproof? Why not? But the bar has been set and the future is bright for affordable PI now more than ever. 

1 hour ago, Gold Catcher said:

This really nails it, and this is perhaps not understood by some. For serious gold prospecting with a PI (let alone ZVT) there is no discrimination or target ID feature that would ever work with the current technology. Period. The Algoforce will not change this fact a bit. This is why neither the SDC, 6k nor the GPZ even offer this "feature", as they are designed for detecting gold. As Steve said, the only way to potentially do this is by ear. But it needs to be stressed that you really need to put in a few thousand hours fieldwork to get this "right". Many operators will not rely on this method and dig it all, me included. The only "discrimination" I do is the boot scratch method. Works pretty good, and it is free. For relic and coin hunting this is a different discussion, but also remember that gold prospecting and relic hunting are fundamentally different and require totally different techniques.

GC

The AlgoForce does indeed change things with what it brings to the table for me but if not for anyone else…. whatever. I 100% advocate digging everything, every target. Yet what do you do when you have two hours and are looking at a nail filled trash pit? I’m going to cherry pick my targets. And the additional information the AlgoForce is offering me is going to enhance that ability for me in my hands. It gives me more information while not taking away anything from me. It makes no decisions for me, unlike the Minelab and Axiom systems. But I can see why for others it changes nothing and is not worth even considering or trying, and that’s fine. Nobody and I mean nobody needs one of these…. except me. I know what I want and have a plan so enough from me on this subject. 

44 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

All that being said, I know very experienced detectorists like Steve and Andrew Benson who can manipulate controls on the fly on the GPX 6000 (which has no explicit iron check features) to derive ferrous telltale responses. I believe this does require a DD coil to be attached, but Steve or Andrew can set the record straight on that.

No I hate the GPX 6000 DD coil and only used it long enough to decide I hated it. Hate is a strong word I rarely use but that coil truly sucks so it is appropriate. I do most ferrous vs non-ferrous work with all PI detectors strictly with my ear. I never use the Minelab or Axiom ferrous functions as totally untrustworthy for nugget detecting. I have seen 1/4 ounce plus gold nuggets called ferrous by those type systems and that's too much money to give up based on a poor result. Missing a bullet or a coin is one thing, missing a $500 nugget another. I honestly forget the feature exists as I never use it.

Since I am going by tones only the E1500 method of supplementing that audio indication with a 0-99 number plus a continuous response graph the E1500 will in my mind only supplement and improve what I am already doing. It will add a visual to my audio information and should allow me to be even more accurate. It does not make me rely on the detector saying good or bad, it only adds to what I am already doing. I'll simply look at the target id number and watch what that graph is doing in addition to hearing what I am hearing, and make better decisions. That's the plan at least. It is like hunting with full tones and VLF - I do not like notching out targets, just give me all the info and let me decide.

DD coils stopped being a thing in nugget hunting circles starting with the GPX 4000, when Minelab started optimizing for mono as almost always getting better depth than DD coils. So while the relic hunters and such in urban areas will maybe miss DD, almost everyone I know runs mono 99% of the time anyway. The only DD I played with much in the last decade as been the Axiom 7x11 FC DD because of it's unique features, but at end of day I have gone back the the 7x11 mono as being deeper and having more consistent audio responses.

I also very much like monos as they allow me to eliminate small surface targets with a double blip signal as these small surface targets pass under each edge of the coil. It is an immense aid in not digging surface trash as I focus on targets that only read in the center of the coil, which means they are larger and have depth to them. I am currently using an Infinium with 14x10 mono at Tahoe because I eliminate all the surface light aluminum foil targets and hair pins with this methodology, only digging centered softer targets that are the deeper better ones I am after. It’s a specific type of discrimination I find extremely usual and I can only do it with mono coils due to the edge sensitive nature of the coil. I got the Infinium for Tahoe because the Axiom is actually too powerful and overloads with the mono coils, forcing me to use the DD coil. Not a problem with the Infinium, nor as a side note, the Impulse AQ, which uses an 11” mono. Lived that detector but refuse to get another until Fisher sorts that mess out, so Infinium it was. That 14x10 mono is one of the sweetest I’ve ever run.

So while I fully appreciate what you and Jeff are saying I personally will not even notice lack of DD capability as I really don't use them anyway. In the last 20 years of PI detecting I'd say I have had a mono coil on my various PI detectors for 99% of the hours run and that is a lot of hours. I have to except the GPZ 7000 and the DOD coil because except for X-Coil that is all you can run on a GPZ 7000.

11 minutes ago, DSMITH said:

Reading through this thread and all the replies, I can almost see this as a replacement detector for the VLF's I use, am I wrong in my Thinking on this ???, I could see using this new detector instead of a VLF

Gonna keep  an eye on this and @phrunt  and @Steve Herschbach reviews on this one

I doubt it is a VLF replacement for most people. The target id system is nothing like a VLF and does not separate ferrous from non-ferrous. See my prior post and links as regards that. This is for the PI enthusiast. I almost never use a VLF and prefer a PI for almost everything I do, including park detecting for coins. The applications where a PI is just no good I simply don't do, as I'd rather go use a PI. So if you have used PI a lot and know what that entails then this may be right up your alley. But if you are someone who has mostly used VLF (not saying that is you) then thinking this replaces VLF is not really the way it is. It is more like different strokes for different folks.

Simple question. Could you ditch all your detectors but the Axiom and be happy? If not, then this will not be all that different.

AlgoForce E1500 Database Entry

I never had a Sadie but always wanted one. I really like poking around with small coils, really focuses my mind. So I am getting this detector purely to have a machine that runs a Sadie coil since this looks like a perfect match for that coil. 

I also want a water neutral 8” or 11” coil for wading. I have not figured that one out yet. Maybe I can find someone who has a Coiltek Platypus they will part with.

AlgoForce E1500 Database Entry

Normally a detector has a fixed parameter that coils must meet and since "dumb" coils always vary to some degree, you get performance mismatches between coil and detector. It is a problem with coils being out of spec, and I have always wondered how many people dissatisfied with a detector were only feeling that way because they got a substandard coil. It is not as much an issue with smart chipped coils as that is less about keeping third parties from building coils as it is about making sure the coils interface properly with the detector. Build quality of aftermarket SD/GP/GPX coils has varied a lot more than people realize over the years, and I suspect that since this machine is pushing the small gold limits (this requires tighter tolerances), a way had to be found to deal with coil variance to insure best performance. In other words, instead of the coil having to be to perfect spec, the detector has more room to adjust to the coil.

3 minutes ago, PhaseTech said:

Yes Simon is right. The Left and Right arrow buttons are for scrolling the menu. 

So basically, you press the Power Button. Wait for it to boot up. It defaults to being on Sensitivity adjustment. Pressing the + or -  buttons immediately adjusts sensitivity. Volume +/- has it's own dedicated buttons. 

When you are in the Default screen, the left arrow button is for switching into pin-point mode. Pressing the Right arrow button takes you to Threshold, then Audio Tone, Freq Scan, Detection mode, Mic Volume, Coil Selection then Misc info which shows software version, serial number, Factory Reset. 

When you are done just press the Back (#8) button which takes you to the default screen. Very easy. 

One cool feature is that in the default screen, under the speaker icon, #18, this flashes to show what timing is selected and also what Coil Selection is selected. 

I think you got a hot one on your hands Nenad. Any tidbits you can offer as far as possible availability? I understand it can't be sold in the U.S. yet but that might help make more supply available in Oz initially.

1 hour ago, 338Edgeshooter said:

This could be amazing for many of us with old workings littered with nails, cans and rust flakes. A stable target ID is my only upgrade wish for the Axiom, as I have found the iron check to be unreliable on its own in my areas especially when the soil is wet. Having a tid to go along with it, or in this caes Instead of iron check, could be a huge help in deciding what not to dig while working through very trashy areas. I can’t wait to see how this detector performs. 

I think it will be very location dependent. If the gold in a certain location has a consistent and fairly small range of gold responses you could concentrate on that range and eliminate a lot of trash. However, if the gold is highly variable it becomes less useful. Only time and experience with digging everything at a location will gain one the knowledge needed to make this feature useful of not. Some will no doubt find it useless, but for others it may be a godsend. All I know is it is giving more information to play with and that has never been a bad thing for me.

4 hours ago, Iffy Signals said:

New User, Saying Hi All. 🫣

The “eyeballs I attracted” with my Versa videos were also from RUTUS. When the testing videos can help the end user make a decision (potentially saving them money, or moving ahead with a purchase) and equally important a company moving ahead with an update based on my findings.. Those are the only views I am looking for. 
 

*The next Versa update is already in the works.
 

Take Care, Mike

Hi Mike,

Welcome to the forum. If you took my comment personally there is no need to as I was not referring to you or anyone specifically. It only applies to you if you think it applies to you and I'd assume you are not one of "those guys?" If you did take offense I do apologize as it was not my intent to be commenting on you or what you do in any way. Just general nonsense I have seen on YouTube the last few years prompted my comment.

Nowhere does AlgoForce refer to ferrous versus non-ferrous discrimination per se. It specifically refers to the Conductive Target ID - in other words, a measurement of how conductive the target is whether ferrous or non-ferrous.

Most GBPI users have savvied to the fact that the high and low tones give a rough indication of target size. A hi or hi-lo tone usually means small or low conductive targets and a low or lo-hi tone usually means large or high conductive targets. You get ferrous either way, just small ferrous on one side and large ferrous on the other. However, in certain gold locations concentrating on hi or hi-lo tones only can be remarkably effective at cherry picking gold nuggets out of a nail pit. Most gold I find almost always gives a hi-lo tone.

Minelab employs a method where targets blank if ferrous, and Garrett the target grunts if ferrous. What makes the AlgoForce different is instead of the "this or that", "yes or no" answer of two categories you get a full range indication, which with experience should lead to more nuance in what can be dug and what can be ignored.

For more details on how pulse discrimination works see my long analysis at the thread below....

Welcome to the forum. All I can say is skip the Gold Bug Pro as the Time Ranger is literally the same detector but with more features for a lower price. Defining feature between it and the Kruzer is the Kruzer is fully waterproof.

18 minutes ago, dig4gold said:

Bugger. 🙄  I was hoping it might be a magic wand. So still be digging all those bullets & other non ferrous items that litter the gold fields, as per normal.

D4G

OK, now that WOULD be magical. It actually could have limited use. Like here in the states you will have a place where a person with a .22 rifle went nuts shooting at stuff. Little cartridges everywhere. They have a consistent id and you can ignore them. Of course a nugget that read like one would be missed, but odds are most nuggets would read as something else. But in general the best we nugget hunters can hope for is decent ferrous discrimination, and even it always comes with risks. When in doubt, dig it out!

2 hours ago, dig4gold said:

How beneficial is that going to be in determining gold from any other non ferrous target?

D4G

???????????????????????????????

It is to help tell gold from nails and other ferrous trash.

31 minutes ago, dig4gold said:

What machines/coils are they using.

D4G

New thread please. Refer to zillions of threads about old SD GP and GPX modded machines and GPZ 7000 threads, some quite recent. There are plenty of deep seeking options but this thread is for people interested in this detector, not whatever Minelab it is that you all are wanting.

More on static non-motion. It is all about the detector autotune function. Before autotune you had a fixed threshold and any motion of the machine affected that threshold, calling for constant manual retuning, usually via a threshold reset button. Then autotune replaced that button, with machines constantly automatically trying to bring the threshold back to the preset level. If you hover over a target it disappears. The White's V/SAT was innovative in that it gave you the ability to vary the retune rate via "Variable Self Adjusting Threshold". It is the all metal version of reactivity. I go into the subject and it's history in great detail in the article below.

PI went though a similar evolution from manual tuning to autotune threshold as anyone can see fast if you simply stop the coil over a target. Most PI detectors have no pinpoint no-motion mode at all.

47 minutes ago, jasong said:

This was way before my time so I'm probably missing some terminology, but what does he mean by a fully static machine? And in what way did that end up being a flaw?

I'm also curious if @Geotech could explain what the mechanism for TID was on this early PI, was it also done with just mono coils and not DD?

Interesting stuff. 

Static means non-motion, and if you are thinking normal motion mode detecting it is a fatal flaw. All detectors sold today work on a motion mode principle where they need to be in motion to detect. Why did they not see the obvious - make it the pinpoint mode, which are static / non-motion modes? Another mystery to me but in any case it looks to be that is what this machine is doing. As far as patents these days it reveals your method and encoding in firmware gives better protection in some cases. Or it is based on something Dave patented and expired already. Whatever, as long as it works. I hope. I am sure it will have limitations of some sort. There always is.

17 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

EMI is the main reason for me anyway along with ground handling.

Since I like to use PIs for coin, jewelry and relic hunting, that is not always done at sites with little or no EMI. Just the opposite. Having a DD/Cancel option eliminates most of the EMI and does a good job of eliminating/discriminating smaller trash targets when I am concentrating on bigger coin/jewerly/relic targets.

Got ya. I guess it just remains to be seen if that is a problem that needs a solution.

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