Chase Goldman

See the link below for a post I put together for another forum member who was considering the AT Pro.  Whether you are considering the AT Pro or AT Max, the advice is the same.  As mentioned above, the AT Pro and AT Max platforms were game changers back in the day but while they still get it done, they are long in the tooth and are missing some features, such as recovery speed adjustments, that will enable you to better access targets in areas where a lot of junk targets are clustered together (basically the the last frontier where old targets had been previously inaccessible due to limitations in detector processing speed).  All the detectors we are talking about have about the same depth capability, but speed and target ID accuracy can help improve your treasure to trash ratio.  Check out the post below for additional information on a number of the latest crop of detectors and look for the best bang for your buck and a detector that is versatile enough to tackle different detecting objectives (coin shooting, jewelry, relics, or gold on land, in farm fields, or in fresh or salt water).  Many recently released detectors such as the Legend, Equinox, Deus 2, and Manticore have the versatility to tackle all these challenges.  But the price range is huge and the older, less versatile detectors such as the AT Max are not really discounted enough to make them necessarily good bargains when you have something like the Legend which was released just last year and has seen several updates released within the pass year to eliminate bugs and add features and at around $500 to $700 depending on the package you choose giving something like the $1600 Manticore a run for its money.  Good Luck.

Just now, UT Dave said:

I bet you had the red numbers turned off, on the update, before rolling back?  I had them turned on and didn't think about turning them off before rolling back.

What I'm guessing, is the red numbers feature was already there before the update, just toggled off and not visible.  The update toggled the feature on.  Turning the red numbers on, gets stored in a config file or user xml or settings table or something like that.  The setting was either "off" before the update or not written.  Using the feature on the update wrote the setting and now the machine is still reading the setting and showing the feature, but without the menu item to turn it off.

An abundance of paranoia, might lead one to make sure and turn the Stabilizer off on all the search modes before rolling back.

- Dave

Dave,

I was thinking the exact same thing regarding red numbers being toggled on and retaining that setting with rollback with no option to now turn it off.

FWIW - Before I updated, I took a screenshot of the firmware version that existed on my Mcore:

5.12.0-3.4.0

I don't know if that matches the rollback version from the updater.  Can't access it right now because I don't have my Manticore available.

7 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I kind of doubt that will be the actual US pricing. If it is though I'll officially not be getting a Manticore. A Deus coil is actually a metal detector. A Manticore coil? No reason it should cost much more than an Equinox coil except for Minelabs "if the detector costs more, charge more for the coil" history. Equinox 6" round coil $179 - no way I'm going to get bent over for $340 for a 5x8 coil for the Manticore. But I am really hoping it is priced more appropriately in the U.S. like $199 - $249 tops. But $340 and I will learn to love the Deus 2 and keep my Equinox 800.

I think you’re right based on some high initial price estimates we were calculating for Xterra Pro based on conversion rates, so all the caveats apply.  But more concerning than price is that many accessories unique to Xterra, Nox 700/900 and Manticore, that have no third party source like wireless headphones, lower rods, and coils that should be available on or shortly after release are simply unobtanium right now (except for the legacy Nox coils).  And as a capper, ML has apparently decided to regress from the direction the took with BT wireless audio on Nox, Vanquish, and the GPX 6000 and lock down their wireless audio accessories as proprietary instead of embracing an industry standard protocol going forward - making 3rd party wireless audio accessories like earbuds incompatible unless you want to hang a BT transmitter off your headphone jack.  And so far, no word of anything like a standalone wireless receiver to adapt favorite wired phones or buds.   It’s all pretty poor form by ML.
 

18 minutes ago, canslawhero said:

nice one! is there a new installer app?

No read back further in the thread.  There there is a way to roll back to the previous version with the existing installer.

Based on some posted consternation based on the anticipated price point for the Minelab Manticore accessory coils, I thought I would put out some price points for popular Simultaneious Multi-Frequency (SMF) metal detector accessory coils, and coil prices for other popular single frequency, selectable single frequency, SMF and PI detectors, for reference.  These are approximate retail prices for new coils (in US $) scraped off the internet and don’t reflect dealer discounts, package deals, or sale specials.

Legend

  LG 28 - 11" Stock - ~$135

  LG15 6" Round -  ~$120

  LG24 9.5x6" - ~$135

  LG30 12X9"  - ~$150

  LG35 14" - ~$170

Nox

  6" Round - ~$180

  10x5" Elliptical (Coiltek) - ~$235

  11" Stock - ~$229

  14X9" (Coiltek) - ~$260

  15x12" - ~$240

  15" Round (Coiltek) - ~$290

Manticore

  Stock 11" - ~$??

  M8 - ~$341 (Pre-release estimate based on currency conversion)

  M15 - ~$417 (Pre-release estimate based on currency conversion)

Deus 2

  9" Round - ~$399

  11" Round - ~$399

  13X11" - ~$399

Other Coils:

  Fisher "Triangulated Biaxial 12" Coil" for F75 - ~$199

  Detech Ultimate 7" (Teknetics and Fisher F75) - ~$130

  Detech Ultimate 13" (Teknetics Greek and F75) - ~$180

  Detech Arrow (Simplex, Fisher, Teknetics Greek and G2+) - ~$150 - $165

  Nel Snake - ~$120 - $130

  Minelab XTerra Pro - ~$??

  Minelab Vanquish (Multi IQ) - ~$100-$140 (size dependent)

  Minelab CTX3030 11"/17"(FBS 2) - ~$350/$400

  Garrett AT Series Coils - ~$130 - $160 (size size dependent)

  Garrett Ace Apex Coils - ~$135 - $190 (size dependent)

  Nokta Simplex+ - ~$110 - $170 (size dependent)

  Nokta Impact - ~$110 - $230 (size dependent)

  Nokta Anfibio/Kruzer - ~$110 - $220 (size dependent)

Pulse Induction:

  Garrett Axiom Coils - ~$280 - $320 (size dependent)

  Minelab Commander 10x5" DD (GPX) - ~$225

  Minelab Commander 11" Mono/DD (GPX) - ~$270/250

  Minelab Commander 15X12" DD (GPX) - ~$375

  Minelab Commander 18" Mono - ~$441

  Coiltek GoldenHawk 10x5" Mono (GPX) - ~$420

  Coiltek 14" Anti-Interference DD (GPX) - ~$410

  Detech 12.5" DD (GPX) - ~$300

  Detech 15" Spiral Wound DD (GPX) - ~$425

  Detech 15" Ultra Sensing Mono (GPX) - ~$425

Commentary - Legend accessory coils are a great value overall consistent with the detector itself, even compared with single frequency detector accessory coils.  The unofficial Manticore accessory coil prices (if they hold) are somewhat consistent with Deus 2, perhaps its most direct competitor, although the Deus 2 coils pricing is complicated by the fact that they are wireless, smart, and, therefore, are self-powered which is not the case with the Manticore coils other than perhaps limited pre-filtering and ID chips.  The Coiltek NOX coils demand a slight premium vs. the Minelab OEM Nox coils.  The higher end Deus 2 and Manticore accessory coils are priced similar to GPX pulse induction coils.

3 hours ago, RichardnTn said:

Have you tried re-installing the update.. That has worked for me on a couple of other detectors. HH Richard

You can't reinstall it.  If it detects you have the latest SW, you are stuck there. 

40 minutes ago, Brad Plohman said:

 

Yes, I understand Square is supposed to be the only audio for the bonephone output, but what I'm saying is if I change the output source from bonephones to one of the others, then select High Square, then go back to the bonephone output, it stays in High Square and that's the only audio you are able to select,...no Square. 

OK.  Thanks.  Misread that.  I'll try to replicate that.  Did you have the bone phones plugged in?

On 6/22/2023 at 5:28 PM, mark said:

Yes I agree there are some serious glitches with this new update, something isn’t quite right with this latest update software?

Good reminder to make sure you don't have bone phones selected as your audio output.  What are the other soecific glitches have you noticed with the update? I am tracking them in a consolidated 1.X Update issues post.  Thanks.

16 hours ago, Brad Plohman said:

Here's an audio glitch I noticed with v1.1; 

When I select the bone phone output, only Square audio available.

Now if I go into options and select the wired phone or wireless output, all three audio options become available. If I select High Square, then go back to the bonephone output, the High Square audio is there and is the only audio available. No Square.

I go into options again and select the wired phone or wireless output, all three audio options are there again. If I select PWM, then go back to the bonephone output, it changes to Square and that is the only audio available. 

1 hour ago, F350Platinum said:

Square has always been the only option for the bone phones, and It's kind of a guess that High Square mixes PWM audio with Square, making it unusable for the bone phones. For some reason they can only use Square Audio. I noticed this too but I believe it is function not a glitch.

Yes, that’s not a glitch and is normal behavior and documented in the user guide.

40 minutes ago, TexHunter said:

If so, I wouldn't guess there would be a large percentage of Deus II owners that would be interested...

Yeah.  Put me in that category.  Other than for curiosity's sake, I otherwise couldn't care less about this accessory, if that is what it is.  Why this would be prioritized over a small elliptical or a functioning, long-promised companion app is beyond me.

1 hour ago, mark said:

I was out in the field detecting yesterday, the update is showing everything was updated correctly including the headphones but when the machine is turned off on a couple of times during the day, instead of using high square tone which is my preference all it shows is square tone and nothing else? I’ve put the update on many times now so it’s definitely messing the control up some how, I don’t know if it’s the firmware that’s causing it or if it needs flashing maybe but it’s definitely a strange issue to sort out any help would be appreciated thanks Mark 

Thanks for reporting back.  You should now do as Gary Black from XP recommended and send a short video to XP customer service.  Long shot - There may be a hardware issue with the controller headphone/data/charge connector that is making it think you have bone phones plugged in or something.  Anyway, your best bet is XP customer support at this point.  Good luck and let us know how it got resolved and how your XP customer support experience went.

18 hours ago, glacialgold said:

I'm starting to wonder if angle of approach is a significant factor here, on top of machine + settings + coil combo?

It all matters: angle of approach, coil, frequency, audio settings, discrimination, notch, TID accuracy, repeatability, and stability; sensitivity, variable soil conditions on the same patch of soil (moisture, added trash, etc.), etc.  Also, different detector models process targets differently even with nearly identical settings, coils, frequencies, and recovery speeds.  Finally, we rarely ever cover every square millimeter of ground even if we think we do, so declaring a site “hunted out” is almost always wrong.  All of these factors and infinite variable combinations make claims that one detector is better than another because targets have been pulled out of a “hunted out” patch dubious at best and most likely meaningless.  You kind of proved that with your Legend > Nox > Legend anecdote. 

3 hours ago, UKD2User said:

You're right, I quoted the ref for the XTerraPro by mistake.  I think that ML have used the chip/SoC to implement a "closed" wireless subsystem for these machines, but I hope I'm wrong. Interesting to see the codenames they used for the machines:

Manticore = "Sirius"

XTerraPro = "Tormentor" (I wonder which Turkish competitor it was intended to torment? 😁)

 

Ha.  Those code names are better than the actual names.

11 hours ago, Steelheader said:

What is a two box detector?  I’ve never heard of that.

Here is the two-box Deus Coil rendering XP first mentioned over 7 years ago:

WTG on the button and the good karma with the landowner should pay dividends down the road.  I need to visit the Valley some day and detect there.  Have only been to Winchester and east of the Blue Ridge.  HH and thanks for sharing.

Let us know how it goes.  If that doesn't work, try reverting to an earlier version (e.g.  0.71)  and then reinstalling 1.1.

Yes.  Try that.

Try power cycling a couple times.  This was reported by some users on ver 1.0, thought it was addressed by version 1.1 but maybe not.

1 hour ago, TampaBayBrad said:

Here's what Dankowski said about the coil delay. Directly from his forum:

Tom-----What is the reason for this delay in getting Manticores out (in users hands)?----Has it got to do with Minelab implementing this new update?----Manticores have just been very slooowly trickling in to dealers.----Have even heard now that there won't be anymore coming to dealers until sometime in July.------Del

Reply Quote

NASA-Tom Re: MINELAB MANTICORE: DATA & PERFORMANCE June 19, 2023 04:03PM

Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 9,866

Del........ the true bottom-line is: DEMAND
The demand for this detector has been the highest......... since ML history. And............ even to the point whereby............ accessory coils production...is 'on hold'....... until we can get this SUPPLY/demand issue resolved on the actual unit itself. (Accessory coils are a 'secondary' concern...... compared to 'primary' ""actual unit"" production).

 

Link

Brad - thanks for providing that link.  Much appreciated.  Access to Tom's forum has been spotty of late and frankly, the way its laid out is severely dated and makes it difficult to follow and find information.

However, I'm not buying into what ML is saying because the view from the outside kind of contradicts that statement.  First, if it's a supply-demand issue, why did they decide to simultaneously take on Nox 700/900 and X-Terra Pro production which utilizes and exhausts many of the same hardware components and consumes precious assembly line capacity and resources at their manufacturer in Malaysia? If anything, the problem is not external demand but an internal self-inflicted wound.  I seriously doubt (but can't prove) that the Manticore demand, at its Price Point, is higher than Nox was at its peak in 2018, and while accessory coils were delayed there too, based on similar release time frames, accessory coils should have been released by now.  If demand is so high, and supply chain management so challenged, then why take on additional demand and models that would just exacerbate the problem?

Despite ML's claims, they seem to have no problem feeding the beast at Cabela's and other big box retailers at a 50 detector per shipment clip, because big box can move vast quantities of product faster that individual dealers.  Note also that ML does not have to directly subsidize their advertised manufacturer US military discount like they do with individual dealers, because Cabelas does not participate in that program as they have their own.

I think the bottom line is that coils simply do not bring in as much revenue as detectors so as long as ML can focus on cranking out Manticores, Nox's and Xterras they can make money hand over fist and since they've already captured the Manticore buyer, there is no hurry to get the accessories out, because in their misguided point of view, having accessories available on day one does not accelerate detector sales.  I disagree and think it is a poor business decision and is sort of a slap in the face to Manticore buyers to keep dragging their feet on it.  But it is what it is.  All I can say is don't hold your breath waiting for those coils to hit the streets as they apparently aren't even willing to project a release date at this point, 7 months into the release of the Manticore...and nine plus months after simultaneously announcing the Manticore and the accessory coils, with photo renderings.

8 minutes ago, ColonelDan said:

Same here.  I try to stay at 0 and 1 at the most.

Same here on the beach.

9 hours ago, ColonelDan said:

I will test this approach tomorrow.  I’m particularly interested in trying a negative discrimination setting along with the lower iron volume because when I tried low iron volume without negative discrimination, the masking remained.  
If we find a solution, we will certainly capture those settings, post them in total and send a report to XP.

Yes, that with Notch might be the answer.  A case where the positive disc processing of the stake might be working against you.

30 minutes ago, CPT_GhostLight said:

Okay Colonel, I got a chance to slip out and test the masking scenario today. Let me preface as saying my soil is mineralized and sandy in my back yard and has dried out some since it hasn't rained since early yesterday and was sunny today. It's about 6 bars on the Ground Level Mineralization Strength meter. My ground balance varied from 87-89, but with Ground Tracking on, it settled in the 87 zone.

This is not exactly scientific testing but I approached it with a mind set to see if I could make the D2 unmask the clad quarter in your program. I was able to get it to unmask with the various land programs, but not with all of them. Granted I didn't spend too much effort adjusting the land programs, just basic hunting tweaks I would normally make to see which programs could hit the quarter. 

I set up for the test with your listed settings:

Base Program = Beach Sensitive, Max Freq = 40, Disc = 0.0, Notch = Off, Sensitivity = 95, Silencer = 0, B.Caps = 0, Reactivity = 0, Audio Response = 7, Iron Volume = 7, Tone = Pitch, Threshold = 0, Audio = High Sqr, Audio Filter = 0, FE TID = On (I forgot to turn that off from the factory default setting), Ground Tracking = On, Ground Stability = 2, Salt Sens = 7, Magnetic Ground = Reject.

This was the orientation of the quarter and tent peg in the ground with the quarter and tent peg in an East-West relationship:

I tried all the various settings and combinations as you did to unmask the quarter with no success. Pitch tones was giving me a high false tone on the tent peg but low VDI number, probably because I forgot to turn FE TID off. I raised the Disc up to 10 with no change, I began lowering it back down to zero with not much change in audio or TID, but when I lowered the DIsc below zero, the audio on the spike began to change and break up a bit and there was an occasional higher number (56- 85) flashing sporatically and the non-ferrous bar showed response as well.

This would only show up on the Southern  and sometimes the Northern end of a 360 swing rotation. It was also more pronounced if I did a rapid wiggle off of or onto the location of the quarter. When centered on the quarter, the tent spike would dominate the tonal response and TID.

Here is an unexpected result. I was going to raise and lower the Reactivity to see how that might affect the signals when I acidentally lowered the Iron Volume instead and, for some unknown reason, the lower the Iron Volume went the higher non-ferrous numbers appeared  on the TID while doing a 360 sweep. With Iron Volume from 3-0, I was able to tell there was a good enough non-ferrous target there to dig near the tent peg. When I set the Reactivity from 1.5-2.5, it improved the response even more with the lower Iron Volume settings. I don't know how that happened, but I would have dug those signals knowing there was something near the peg. You might give that a try to see if it makes any difference on your turf and beaches, but it worked for me. BTW, I was using the 9" coil in this test.

I hope that helps in some small way.

Hmm. Interesting.  So there potentially is merit to zero iron volume as I suggested earlier in this thread.  But to be fair, I was suggesting it as an alternative to notch. Great info CPT.

2 minutes ago, Digalicious said:

The point of this thread was about how people can be misled in this hobby. Furthermore, I don't need to own a Manticore to know how a plotter works. Do you need to own a calculator to know that 1+1+2?

As far as your first paragraph goes, what was claimed was, "If the target ID is lets say 24, and the ID is not round on the ID map, it my experience its been can slaw. Slightly oval a pull tab".

If the target ID is 24 like he said, then TT would show a circle. It would not show something "not round" as he said. 

He then says that if the trace is slightly oval it's a pulltab. However, if the trace was slightly oval, that's just because the ID is a spread of 2 adjacent ID's, which can (and often does) occur on any target. It has nothing to do with a pulltab itself. In addition, if a pulltab has a single ID, then the trace would be round, not oval.

From my perspective, the point of this thread appeared to be more about you mocking others from afar who have misconceptions about the nuances of high end detecting gear without giving them the recourse to defend their position on a level playing field.  People are always going to have these misconceptions and will invariably pass them on to others who will either run with that flawed information or do the due diligence research to verify where truth lies.  Pointing that out here with your attitude is simply self serving and does nothing to help those who don't understand.  Not sure what you were hoping to accomplish here other than grandstanding about how you saved everyone from the horrors of misinformation.

It is also indeed painfully apparent you haven't swung a Manticore because you'd know that getting a single TID number is almost more the exception than the rule.   Seriously, though, the Manticore and Next Gen Equinox numbers often bounce around on isolated non-ferrous targets at depth.  Furthermore, the TT circle is not necessarily less "accurate" than the visual TID number.  In some respects it is actually a better, more informed and less filtered version of the processed target signal.  Almost a probability density plot of the most likely target IDs resulting from the variables that affect the final processed target ID number on each subsequent swing.  So idealizing to the perfect single-digit target signal is actually not reflective of the real world except when there is little doubt as to the nature of a no-brainer shallow or surface target.

Finally, I am going to extend to you the same courtesy you extended to the anonymous targets of your sarcasm and am locking this thread before you reply. I can see it is just going to devolve into one of "those" threads where you don't know when to put the shovel down while you dig a deeper hole with each reply and people just throw up their hands in frustration. You can take it up with me or Steve offline if you so wish.

1 hour ago, Digalicious said:

That is all completely wrong in more than one way. I replied to him with:

While you are fundamentally correct in your assertion regarding TT and target shape correlation, what the man is saying is not necessarily "completely" wrong.  While the TT doesn't actually show the shape of a target, the traces can show TID variability that occurs with non-symmetric targets, co-located targets, and seemingly "stable" TIDs can show smears and shapes other than a dot. The traces the man describes may very well align with his real life experience digging can slaw and pull tabs. 

Do you have actual field experience with the Manticore that contradicts the man's assertions and actual experiences regarding the correlation of his TT plots and target predictions?

Also, speaking as a site moderator and from past experience, no real good can come from documenting your interactions with others on  another MD site and quoting others who cannot defend themselves here and doing so with minimal context.  Even if the individuals and site go unnamed it can put Steve in an awkward position with the principles of the other site - doesn't take much detective work for people to figure out was is going on to have it boomerang back. 

So while it's worth it to continue to discuss the nuances of Manticore target trace in this thread, let's just take the high road and put a stop to airing your differences of opinion and drama with these unnamed people from your anonymous detecting site, if you don't mind. 

Thanks for understanding.

15 minutes ago, Chesroy said:

Yes Simon. Nox more stable in use but always feel that it also could do better.Shallow targets never an issue but depth never impresses in these conditions although very sensitive to very small targets cant fault that.

I tend to think ALL detectors suffer in plowed, aerated fields.  It's a known issue that going into a "fluffy" disc'd and aerated field your depth is just going to suffer even with a PI.  We have those conditions in the US too. 

Do you have a detector that does better than the Minelabs under those conditions?

1 hour ago, TampaBayBrad said:

Not much here for us strictly beach hunters who only hunt in beach modes. The red target ID #'s are nice but I was already viewing the red line above the ID's.

The dry sand ground balance....Dankowski says don't GB in dry sand set it to zero and turn tracking off, so I don't know what they have done with that.

I don't use the soft keys because I only hunt with 2 programs that I don't change settings within once I dialed them in:  a custom Beach Low Conductors or a custom Surf and Seawater. I stay in all metal all the time.

I did notice that I have to power down the detector sometimes when switching between wireless and wired headphone operation. I like wireless for dry and wet sand but need to plug-in the M-105's if I'm going deeper than waist deep water. Maybe that headphone connection stability improvement has something to do with that.

Well not all beach hunters reside in Florida like you and Tom and and aren’t perpetually blessed with the advantage of always working in “0” reference Florida dry sugar sand where this “update” has perhaps little usefulness. 

Ground balancing and tracking requires the presence of some level of mineralization to key off of.  So the detector ground balance algorithm works best when it can actually sense a change in mineralization level as the coil is pumped above (for auto and manual ground balance) or swept along the ground (for tracking ground balance).  Otherwise, you’ll just get a zero ground phase reading while pumping or unstable ground phase adjustments while tracking - which is just fine provided the dry sand ground phase is truly at or near zero.  Which is indeed the case for most beaches.

However, low magnetic mineralization dry sand at some beaches can still have a significant non-zero ground phase reference as a result of non-magnetic (I.e., non-black sand) mineral components.  But the auto ground balance algorithm may have trouble picking this up in low mineralization situations.  So I suspect ML has adjusted the dry sand ground balance algorithm to be sensitive to and to properly respond to changes in low mineralization levels so that a more precise ground balance point can be obtained on dry sand beaches that have a non-zero ground phase.  This enables the detector to run in horseshoe (i.e., No Discrimination) mode without experiencing non-zero ground phase “grunts”.  This update might also help those who utilize ground tracking to enable seamless, stable transitions between dry sand, to damp sand, to wet salt sand, and surf.

Granted not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but some outside of Florida and even in Florida might find it helpful.  

Sorry this is not an overly exciting update for you Florida beach hunters, but Manticore already seemed tailor made for the beach and I was not hearing beach hunters wanting for much more from Manticore out of the box.  Probably due to the fact that Tom D was so heavily involved in providing feedback to the designers in the early stages of design.

Is there something you really wish ML had addressed for the beach hunters in this first update that they did not provide, Brad?