Chase Goldman

Bob - When you get a chance, confirm whether magnetic reject is affected on the remote so I can post a comprehensive bug/issues list for Update 2.0 in the pinned thread on consolidated D2 update issues.  Thanks!

On 9/9/2023 at 11:54 AM, Jeff McClendon said:

The #9 Relic stock program running at 24 kHz does not appear to have been changed from V1.10 to V2.0. The air test results in the above test are very similar to version 1.10 FMF Goldfield on the smaller sub gram targets, especially the very fast drop off of the audible responses on the #6 lead shot and the 0.25 gram flat lead targets. The audio response goes from clearly audible to nothing almost immediately which is what FMF Goldfield used to do using V1.10 and earlier software. The decrease in audio response on repeatable 2 way hits using V2.0 FMF Goldfield is now very linear and gradual which is what I expect from a good small gold nugget prospecting detector.

As I think about it some more, I think it's a good thing there is some differentiation in the way Goldfield and Relic behave in this regard for the reasons you mentioned earlier regarding suppressing a certain TID range in iron which can be advantageous from an audio fatigue standpoint.  No need to have two identically behaving stock programs taking up memory space.  This gives you additional options for search modes and target interrogation. I'm in on the update.

Probably saw you out there Tuesday, Joe.  I had a similar hunt, found a lot of clad over by the north turn and only junk earrings...and plenty of fishing tackle.

Congrats on the gold.

Thanks Jeff for posting your test results on V2!  More improvement than I anticipated.  I may update after all just to see how Relic was affected.

11 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

That is Steve H. with the Axiom on the back cover of a recent magazine mentioned in another post elsewhere on this forum. If it wasn't for Steve and this forum, I wouldn't know squat and would still be using an AT Gold and maybe a GP 3000.

Oh yeah, Steve H.  I know that novice.  

1 hour ago, CPT_GhostLight said:

Dang, Jeff, you're on it! Thank you for your in-depth look at the Gold mode in V-2.0! Did you have to update the puck or headphones too?

I'm curious if the other programs still perform normally as in V1.1 or if there have been changes to other features too.

I may have to bite the bullet and give it a try. 🤔

CPT,

The XP update instructions explicitly state that the headphones (both WSA II's and the WS6) should be updated if you update the remote.  WS6 definitely needs to be upgraded if you want to take advantage of the new Goldfield processing in WS6 Master configuration.  There is anecdotal evidence that the phones will continue to work fine as wireless audio only "slaves" without updating, but why chance it.  Gary Black himself posted here that folks should still update their phones after the last "minor" update to ver 1.1 even though users reported their phones working without the update. Since there is remote handshaking associated with the auto power power on/off feature and previous bugs that resulted in the phones not fully powering down and draining the battery, I wouldn't chance it.

I'm speculating that Relic mode which has target processing similar to Goldfield may have also been affected by the update, but as per usual with detector manufacturers, the update summary is not explicit in this regard other than mentioning the Xtrem Hunter coil compatibility and Equalizer now working with the bone phones.

2 hours ago, abenson said:

Yea I'm holding off on the update. Really don't care about small gold sensitivity on the D2, nor do I plan on getting the 2 box system. I'm happy with 1.1, it's doing great so why chance an update that could change a good thing..

Andrew - agree.  Rollback is fine except that XP makes you lose all your customizations in the process.  One thing that would be great would be a means to be able to effortlessly save your customizations offline or onto a phone app interface so that they can be less tediously restored following an update.  Something I've wanted since the first major update to the Deus 1.  I can always dream...

2 hours ago, phrunt said:

@Jeff McClendon

LOOK!!!!  It might be time I get a Deus 2 after all, please let me know how it goes.

Other Improvements introduced with V2.0:

• Gold field program: Increased Sensitivity to small targets (low conductors).

• Equalizer now functions with the Bone Conduction headphones.

2 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Coaching at a high school golf tournament right now Simon. I will definitely let you know when I have a chance to check out the new Deus ll version 2.0 software. 

I too am interested in what you find with 2.0, Jeff.  I likely won't update unless Jeff sees a significant sensitivity improvement because I am not excited about reprogramming my remote and also am not planning on getting the Xtereme Hunter.

Furthermore, enthusiasm still needs to be tempered, because unless this update makes the D2 9" round coil outperform the Deus 1 5x9.5" elliptical in micro gold sensitivity (a big ask), you are still limited in micro-target sensitivity by the field generated by the D2's 9" round coil footprint.  I also have my doubts that they can significantly improve on micro gold sensitivity without either: 1) going to a higher max multifrequency frequency (FMF) (i.e., greater than 40 khz) on Goldfield; (2) adding high mono-frequency capability to Goldfield; or both.  Not clear either of those modifications to Goldfield features are included in this update.

But I absolutely have no problem being proven wrong on this and am glad XP is acknowledging and continuing to address this area where D2's performance is coming up short.  It's also worth noting that ML is able to outperform XP on small gold with the Nox operating at 40 khz Max FMF (at least we think its 40 khz, ML has never publicly specified their Max Multi-IQ frequencies).

Oh, and as far as the saltwater beach/dive modes go.  I recommend turning off Magnetic Rejection and using the maximum salt sensitivity setting that does not result in salt noise at your desired main sensitivity setting.  Reduce salt sensitivity before you consider reducing main sensitivity if you are getting salt-based noise, so you don't take a hit on overall target sensitivity (reducing salt sensitivity will reduce sensitivity to micro-gold targets, however - which is the classic tradeoff).  Regarding Magnetic Rejection - Unless you have a lot of ground noise being generated by black sand, magnetic rejection can cancel borderline target signals at the limits of ultimate D2 detection depth (in other words you lose some depth if you invoke it), so use it only if needed.  Note that the Magnetic Rejection default setting is "Reject" for the three salt water beach/dive modes.

The interoperability and reconfigurability of the modular wireless components (and weight savings) enables a lot of customization and is perhaps the biggest strength of the totally wireless ecosystem.  It does come with the obvious drawbacks associated with charging all the tinker toys (especially with the clunky coil clips and outdated usb connectors) and antenna claptrap for submerged operation and coil selection/price.  But the added customization/configurability of the audio and tone options (Hi-square was a great sonic compromise between Square and PCM)) and raw performance also make up for those downsides.  My only remaining "wants" from XP are a small elliptical coil for D2 (like the D1) and perhaps a high frequency (>40 khz) monofrequency capability on Goldfield/Relic modes.

Congrats on the gold.

Thanks for following up in detail with the additional info.  I still think it's poor form they didn't send mounting hardware back to you with the replacement pod as a kit.  But if they explained it was commonly available off the shelf, I guess no biggie.  To me it's weird though for mounting bolts not to come with the replacement pod, because they made such big deal about third party mounting hardware and shafts with smaller OD's stressing the pod and causing cracks that I would think they would ensure the right bolts are included to protect themselves from future warranty claims because the wrong bolts were used.  Lesson learned:  keep your mounting hardware and probably also the lower bracket if you are sending the pod in for diagnostics and repair.

Just another head shaking interaction with ML and their reps (in this case the repair center).

1 hour ago, Compass said:

I was dealing with the authorized PA repair facility and not directly with Minelab so maybe that was the reason. Also, I was out of warranty and maybe that makes a difference when it comes to customer service. 

I personally know and have dealt with some of the PA repair facility personnel for both warranty and out of warranty repair of various ML products and am surprised they wouldn't just send you the hardware needed to make you whole.  So I was wondering whether you just asked for the old pod back (I explain why they don't return it, below) or also specifically asked them to at least send the mounting hardware back and they explicitly refused.  It's a subtle but important distinction that ultimately reflects on the repair facility's reputation and leaving that question open implies a low standard regarding customer service.  So it would be good data for others to know if you gave them the chance to be helpful by returning or providing replacement mounting hardware and they just simply couldn't be bothered or it never got to the point of asking them for the mounting hardware after they stated the old pod would not be returned.  It's a really surprising oversight on their part since you paid for the pod.

Also, FWIW, the ONLY way you can purchase, post-warranty a new (or refurbished) replacement pod is by turning your old pod in.  So if you opt for a new or the less expensive refurbished replacement pod option (if that option still exists), then keeping the old pod is part of the out-of-warranty exchange deal, from what I recall. See this old post for more info on the Nox Pod out-of-warranty exchange deal...

While I'm not a ML fan-boy, I can see at least two reasons why they may do it this way.  First, it keeps rando people from simply buying control pods and other hardware a la cart to create Frankenox 800's for use and resale - which could also create a warranty tracking nightmare.  2nd, if the returned Pod can be legitimately factory repaired and refurbished (though unlikely with mechanical failure/crack and/or water intrusion damage) then it gives them a source of hardware for that.

HTH

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

The days of getting excited about new model detectors are over for me it seems.

I think it's time to get excited about the Xtreme Hunter.  

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

I understand your point, I just see their point of trying to keep it as close to entry level as possible so people don't say well, I don't need waterproof I'll just buy a Vanquish not an Equinox.  The more expensive the detector we buy the more money they make as manufacturing costs of a lower priced unit don't vary all that much from the highest priced units.

So few people venture outside of default settings and only use sensitivity control so a ground balancing Vanquish would be suitable for many people over the need for an Equinox, I can happily use mine and often do and never feel like I'm missing much not using my Nox, in fact in some places I find it beneficial over the Nox with its Elliptical coils.  Maybe they've just tried to get too many models so flood the market and hinder the competition that they're having trouble finding ways to release new models without them overlapping other models too much and that's why 2024 is the year of trying to sell existing gear with no new releases.

I think they've taken it too far already with models, and now they're in a position where releasing future models is going to enter paint job territory by the looks of it like happened to First Texas when their engineering talent appeared to reach the peak of their ability.  In Minelab's case it may not be their engineering talent but physics limitations that end their run of new detectors but it has to come to an end at some point and then what? That only leaves paint jobs and new designs of shafts and control pods to make them look different when under the hood they're all pretty similar.

The days of getting excited about new model detectors are over for me it seems.

Before XT Pro, I would agree with what you are saying on your lead paragraph, Simon.  But ML themselves changed the equation by introducing the XT Pro - a great, versatile entry level detector that eclipses Vanquish in versatility and utility and is on approximately equal footing in capability (the Vanquish Multi-IQ advantage at least on a salt beach appears to be minimal) and all at a lower price point.  The only glitch appears to be lack of affordable compatible wireless phones, though that can be readily remedied with some inexpensive Aptx-LL hardware.

58 minutes ago, phrunt said:

How much of the USA has difficult soil that these Ace type users are going to encounter with the type of detecting they would be doing?  I see the world differently as I don't need ground balance anywhere here 🙂

I don't know how it works there but if someone was to buy a Vanquish for example here, and take it out to the beach and it didn't work properly they could just take it back and get a refund within the first week saying it's not suitable for their needs so if they were getting a big influx of returned detectors that might force their hand to add ground balance, I'm sure they can add it to the Vanquish with a firmware update and repurposing an existing button by holding it down rather than a short press.

Yes the Ace detectors are popular and yes severely mineralized ground does not dominate the landscape, but that's beside the point.  The point is that there is simply is no need to compromise a design by omitting such a basic feature.  With modern processors, GB can be done automatically without added cost or impacting operational complexity.   ML proved this with the XT Pro which should have been the design basis for the Vanquish instead of ML's misguided attempt to lure prospective Garrett customers with a retro-Ace lookalike and unnecessarily handicapped features.  The one thing I do like about the Vanquish was it's lightweight collapsible S-Shaft design, but now that they have vastly improved on the original Nox straight shaft, and have basically dead-ended the Vanquish line as far as successors are concerned, and with the XT Pro addressing all the other Vanquish shortcomings, though omitting Multi-IQ, there really is no point continuing on with the V.  But based on your thorough analysis of the 2023 Codan annual report, it really is all moot as it seems that ML has no plans for hobby treasure detector development for the near future.  So Vanquish is likely not going anywhere for the foreseeable future nor will there be any successor designs.

On 8/28/2023 at 4:58 AM, CliveHamy said:

Good point. It is easy for the top md experts to disparage the simpler entry level machines. They forget that to the entry level newbies, often short of cash, confronting a new complex hobby, a simple to use, high value for money, great performance detector like the Vanquish is ideal. These "shortcomings" are advantages.

I'm not so sure the shortcomings (articulated well by Jeff above) are advantages  when they can (in the case of a fixed GB setting) hinder a beginner's ability to learn or be less frustrated, especially when a cheaper and more feature rich alternative in the guise of the Xterra Pro addresses them.  ML has also somehow come up with a decent performing single frequency salt beach machine whose only real shortcoming is performance in highly mineralized dirt as Jeff points out above. 

So in my case at least, this has nothing to do with MD disparagement due to price or features snobbery, as I would personally endorse the less expensive XT Pro over any of the Vanquishes (but especially the upper two tier models).  And as Jeff pointed out above, an XTerra Pro variant with a simple Vanquish like Multi IQ mode implementation to better handle Salt and Mineralized soil would be a great fit (and replacement for Vanquish) priced between the XT Pro and the Nox 600.

1 hour ago, Glenn in CO said:

Thanks for the explanation and photo!

Check the edge of the plate to see if you can make out what the letter print looks like.  It could also be something besides a Greek alphabet letter.

Linotype printing machines were invented in the late 1800's which, along with your KofL pin dates the site's period of activity.  Looks like a fun site.

The "S", "O" and "MA" symbols on the Knights of Labor pin stand for the motto of the order - "Secrecy, Obedience, and Mutual Assistance"

More information from the source here:

https://heartinaheartlessworld.blog/tag/knights-of-labor/

Great finds.

1 hour ago, Jason-NEK said:

Man that's terrible to hear considering how great the products were that came out of his business.  Hopefully he kept all of his blue prints and build designs on computer file for the family to possibly sell out to someone that would consider continuing the SunRay product line.  

Just to be clear, it was the NEW owner that died.  So apparently the IP had already been passed on from the original family.  Who knows if anyone else is interested in continuing the business as that would be twice removed from the original family.

Now you’re cooking.  That is definitely first half of 18th century, as others have stated, based on the shank.  Do a Google search on how to date antique buttons based on the shank, design, and backmarks.  Start looking for concentrations of square nails which are a telltale of previous old structures and hit those areas hard.

Top item appears to be a partial antique shoe or boot heel plate, probably 1800's.

Bottom appears to be a common antique iron buckle frame, probably horse tack but hard to tell without a coin or other common object in the picture for scale.  Hard to date in its high state of corrosion.  

Keep going, looks like there's more stuff out there.

16 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I've wondered about the idea that a combination of ground balance and ground mineralization (two kinds, ferrous and saline) are all that there is.  Why should it be?  Most of what we 'know' in life in general is a simplification.  Think of it as a dumbing down so we can understand the complexities of nature.

In other interests of my life I've found that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".  Another way to look at this is we often have to unlearn what we know in order to make progress.  There has been much discussion recently that the knowledge we've gained with the Equinox can be detrimental to our learning of the Manticore.  This seems counterintuitive but then I recall reading (probably from Steve H. posts ) that the knowledge one carries over from an IB/VLF to a PI can be counterproductive.  Does that apply even from one IB/VLF to another??

Short Answer, Chuck: Yes it does apply from one VLF to another and I would add from one detecting objective or environment to another.  It can be counterproductive if you blindly apply “knowledge” gained from one VLF detector to another VLF detector without thinking about the inherent differences in the way features are implemented between VLF detectors or their different behaviors, strengths, and weaknesses.  Similarly, it can be counterproductive to have the mindset that one’s approach and knowledge gained by specializing in one type of detecting (e.g., relic hunting) would translate wholesale and directly to beach detecting or gold prospecting.  Relatively mundane techniques such as the methods and tools used to recover targets varies greatly.  If you don’t know how to use a heavy duty water scoop in heavy surf you will have little success even if you have nailed the detector language telling you there is a gold ring under your coil.

The Nox to Manticore sensitivity and recovery settings “disconnect” is now becoming more obvious, but it definitely existed with Deus and Deus 2.  A lot of Deus “unlearning” was required for me to truly unlock Deus 2.  Furthermore, the way you use a single detector model varies greatly depending on your detecting objective and environmental conditions.  As an example, one may be a wizard with the Nox at beach detecting or coin shooting but may struggle mightily relic detecting in hot ground or gold prospecting with the Nox because even though the Nox is capable of tackling all those things the setups and techniques used are completely different, such that if you solely use your beach or coin shooting knowledge and fail to recognize that the environmental or target type differences require a completely different setup or technique, the Nox will “appear” to you to be ill suited to the task, when it is your “old” or non-applicable experience and knowledge holding you back.

Individual “common” features such as ground balance, noise cancel, sensitivity, discrimination, tones, recovery speed adjustments, frequencies, pinpointing, and “modes” behave very differently with respect to these parameters from one VLF to another, even within the same brand or even model family, and sometimes, in the case of Deus 2 and Manticore, within the same detector, itself.  On Deus 2 there are basically three groups of modes which behave differently from the others.  The terrestrial “discrimination” modes (General, Sensitive, High Conductor, and Mono) are pretty different from the three Beach/Dive discrimination modes, and the “non-discrimination” Gold Field and Relic modes are vastly different from either of the other two “discrimination mode” groups in terms of behavior, tone, and available settings.

Even the notion of “All Metal” varies from one detector to another.  In one case it can mean simply removing all discrimination, in another it is the true raw unprocessed IB signal (motion or non-motion), in another it is a specialized mode that processes signals different than the “discrimination” modes (Deus and Deus 2), and in others it disc and all metal (or motion and no motion) can be implemented simultaneously (e.g., Tarsacci) to simultaneously provide mixed audio to the detectorist.

I tend to learn each detector’s language, quirks, features, and weaknesses individually, uniquely but I don’t consider this “diversity” in detector-to-detector behavior a hindrance, but rather it is the essence of what I mean when I say one detector “compliments” another.  To this point, my experience with a Deus detector that had multiple frequency settings multiple reactivity/recovery settings, and multple search modes made Nox less intimidating to me, so in that sense the prior knowledge and experience using a versatile "Swiss Army knife"  type of detector was helpful in getting a running start with the Nox, but the Nox also had its own language, which I had to force myself tl learn and avoid the temptation to revert back to my comfort zone with the Deus.  So, of course there is a certain degree of knowledge and technique “crossover”, but if I have really learned a detector well, then my brain and muscle memory actually take over to switch my “operator’s mode” over consistent with the detector I am swinging.  My detector setup, settings and techniques differ depending on which detector I’m using even if my detecting objectives haven’t changed because the detectors themselves have different behaviors and different strengths and weaknesses.  Even when using a single detector, I often “interrogate” iffy targets by hitting them with different modes or even different setups of the same mode (by varying a single or multiple parameters such as frequency, recovery, disc, or tone).  

This used to be accomplished in a less straight forward manner by hitting a site with two or more detectors that operated at different frequencies or that had different recovery speeds or discrimination behaviors.  When switchable single frequency, simultaneous multifrequency (SMF) , and finally the Nox with its combination of multiple SMF modes and multiple switchable single frequencies came along, you now could hit a site just a few times with the same detector but with different mode setups and accomplish that same feat that you accomplished with multiple detectors and multiple passes through a site.

Bottom line is that there are general experiences and knowledge and basic setups and techniques that you can carry over from one detector to the next or one detecting objective or environment to the next, but there is also a greater amount of specialization and “unlearning” required, as well (which I refer to collectively as “evolving”).  Especially as the detectors themselves evolve into more capable, versatile, and complex machines.

On 8/5/2023 at 11:43 AM, Johnnysalami1957 said:

No argument here. I'm going to look again at the Deus II with just the control and 9" coil. 1199.00

Actually 1099.00 free shipping no tax!

 

Are you planning on wired phones?  You are going to need the adapter then, because the headphone connector on the remote is a non-standard waterproof connector.  Otherwise, the speaker is not all that loud on the Deus 2.  Consider getting one of the "dumb" wireless phones (WSA II Puck/Backphones which you can adapt as remote receiver for wireless phones or the more expensive WSA II XL which are over the ear phones but $50 more expensive) either of which are a lot cheaper than the WSA 6 Phones that come in the more expensive kit.  

Deus 2 can be as simple or complicated as you want it to be.  You can do just fine using the General Program as is out of the box or delve into the various other modes and settings as you get more confidence.

The key for me is that at 62 its something I can swing for hours vs. even the relatively light Legend and new lightweight ML's (Xterra Pro (aluminum) and Nox 700/900 and Manticore which are Carbon Fiber) are not as light with their stock coils.

FWIW

1). Beach 2, just like the manual says (suggest reading p. 13 of the manual, some good nuggets of information there regarding beach detecting with the 900).

https://www.minelab.com/__files/f/494595/4901-0419-2 Inst Manual, EQUINOX 700 900 EN.pdf

2) In principle yes.  However, over driving sensitivity will just creates noise and instability which negates any improved depth performance.  After Noise cancel p, suggest setting sensitivity to the point where you just start to hear extraneous audio and then back off until it’s quiet.  If you are running in the surf, Tracking Ground Balance is recommended to track changing ground effects due to salinity variations in the surf.  If you are using GB tracking, then do a GB first, then engage tracking.  Tracking is usually unnecessary in damp or dry sand. Your mileage may vary so test this out to see what works best.

3). I like the 800 better, less sparky and more stable IDs but if you keep sensitivity under control and set it where it is stable then the 900 should be an excellent beach machine.  And besides, who can argue with results as shown by your finds pics.  Congrats and good luck.

On 7/27/2023 at 2:57 PM, phrunt said:

I really like the phone configuration app, so much easier than trying to get these stupid button sequences some pin pointers have to do settings. 

Amen to that.  Add Quest to that list of impossible to remember button pushes.

RIP Jim.  My condolences to Linda and strength in this difficult time.