Chase Goldman

4 hours ago, ☠ Cipher said:

I received a reply. 

4 hours ago, ☠ Cipher said:

So that’s exciting. At least it’s still in development. What could be the holdup though. Seems a straightforward project for a company like XP. No word on which platforms it would be designed around or if it will just work with all of them like the mi-6. Have to wonder about cost also. XP can be pricey, but then sometimes they can surprise you and be reasonable. 

I got the exact same reply when I asked them about the Go Terrain app release.  

...just kidding.

Seriously though, I'm surprised that it's still alive but even more surprised that they used the phrase "near future".  Though who knows what XP defines as "near future" as the Hoard Hunter was first announced back in 2016, IIRC.

Thanks for sharing their response.  

58 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

One thing I don't recall being discussed, at least not as I'm describing it, is 2d/3d location by triangulation.  As the coil moves from one side to the other over a target it would use the target signal strength vs. known magnetic field to figure out how deep a target is as well as where it's located left-right.  It might even be possible to get the other direction (frontward-backward).

Another thought -- something that has been done (e.g. White's Vision/V3 family) but isn't on any of the recently released models -- is a histogram of target VDI.  This shows a visual peak for the VDI's with the most hits during a swing/investigation.  Do any of the BBS/FBS/FBS2 detectors have this?

Interesting, but pretty sure it needs an inertial/gyro sensor in the coil to "know" which direction it is being swung to do what you are suggesting and how does it ascertain the true footprint of the target to compare to the baseline "known" coil magnetic field to differentiate a small shallow target vs. a deep big target?  The primary coil field on a DD is pretty narrow.  Perhaps coil edge effects and coil tilt angle data can be used?  The new Quest V80 has a gyro sensor to help with auto GB (senses the operator pumping the coil with no need to hit a button to initiate the GB sequence) and to turn off the detector when not in use.  Does the Manticore coil have such a sensor?  

From what I can tell, the horizontal (CO componet) and Vertical (FE component) smudge of a variable TID target on the 2D display sort of gives you information akin to the TID histogram feature you are describing but not exactly.  The bigger the trace area the more uncertainty in the TID, but you don't really get a relative feel for the TID with most hits unless that is related to how dark the trace is displayed with the lower occurring "fringe" TIDs appearing as lighter ghost shades.  But someone who actually has the machine can comment more intelligently than me.

Speaking of coil position and swing sensing, it would be great to have a system that takes coil position and swing direction/amplitude data and overlay that on a site grid to determine site coil coverage so that you can focus subsequent surveys on areas that have coverage gaps.

On 3/9/2023 at 4:01 PM, dsb said:

nokta's nickname for the legend should have been "Bear poker.  If i was looking for my first detector now and had $400 to spend it would be the Vanquish, SMF wins.  But i'd be wanting the Legend so bad probably find the extra bucks.

I've seen the Legend being sold for as low as $380 (talk to a dealer).  Legend SMF wins.  Perhaps dealers trying to clear out existing stock based on the CF mid-shaft upgrade announcement  by Nokta.  With Legend out there at that price point, even Vanquish is teetering on irrelevance especially with some of ML's head scratching feature omissions on the top end V540 such as lack of an adjustable ground balance or remembering user settings on power off.

On the flip side, X-Terra Pro appears to have trumped even the revamped Simplex line.

If ML could re-imagine Vanquish as an Xterra Pro "IQ" with the generic Xterra/Nox/Manticore form factor.  One or two Multi IQ modes (possibly with a User Profile slot) and one single frequency setting (at say 10 or 15 khz) at an Xterra/Vanquish price point (~$300 to 325US) they could provide sufficient degrees of separation from Nox 700 AND Xterra Pro while potentially  grabbing some Legend sales.  Think of the Nox 700 as the marriage of the XTerra Pro with the XTerra Pro IQ.

JMO.

Pretty sure XP abandoned it.

34 minutes ago, phrunt said:

If the phone is nothing more than an output device like a dumb terminal to allow them to adjust settings and see Target ID's and the guts is in the coil like XP it's not a challenge. 

Agree.  Something tells me though that XP has done something different on Deus 2 because there appears to be more stuff going on in the remote/master puck in Deus 2 than in Deus 1.  One thing is that Firmware updates now bypass the coils completely and custom program setups used to reside with the coils but now, with Deus 2, solely reside on the remote/puck which indicates to me the remote/puck is doing a portion signal processing heavy lifting that resided only with the coils on Deus 1.  But point taken, Quest could theoretically fashion their unit to behave like the Deus 1 and if they can prioritize their app it should work no worse than how a phone can display real time biometric data from a watch or chest strap.

Chuck,

Great report.  Glad you like those included wireless phones.

Regarding the "waterproof" ML headhone adapter, ML states that the plug end can be submerged but obviously the jack end where you plug your wired phones cannot be submerged (especially in salt water) and probably should not be exposed to a steady rain.

Regarding the non-CTX compatible version Pro Golds, a good recap of the incompatibility of those phones with the Equinox (and by extension, Manticore) headphone jack was documented extensively in your 2019 Equinox thread here:

https://www.detectorprospector.com/forums/forum/53-minelab-equinox-forum/

2 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

If a phone as controller makes no sense then neither does what XP does with all the wireless everything. The basic concept has nothing wrong with it at all. It will happen, mark my words,

Don't know that saying the approach has more downsides than upsides means that I was saying it "makes no sense". But I definitely own that I am a Debby Downer on the whole concept of dedicating your phone as a MD processing and interface device.  Not because it can't be done but because of the inherent limitations I describe below.

I have thought about it some more and I am not posting this to be argumentative, but just to better put my thoughts and, yes opinions based on control system design experience, down in writing.  There are obviously no cut and dried conclusions because we can't predict with certainty where Quest will go with this.  And I reserve the right to be completely wrong on this.  

On to my TL/DR ramblings...

I agree, the basic concept could be technically done because, of course, it HAS already been done (despite some glitches) with the first iteration of the Kickstarter version which several backers now have in their hands (except George). 

But really the question for me is how far can a manufacturer take the platform beyond the basic concept.  I say that from the standpoint of the limitations in ultimate capability that can be achieved utilizing non-purpose built hardware by bolting it to a muktitasking Swiss army knife device with constantly changing specs, unrelated apps, and interfaces that the detector designer has little control over. 

From my perspective, XP is an apple to this Quest/AMD orange as XP has purpose built all the hardware and software of the platform and by exerting that overall control can fully and continuously integrate, tweak, and optimize the platform's capabilities within the constraints of wireless technology and the signal processing limitations associated with the chosen hardware and in-house developed software.  XP doesn't have to worry about whether APTX is getting phased out in favor of BT LE or whether an incoming text, phone call, GPS sync, or Yahoo sports notification will interrupt target ID processing or tge user interface. 

Of course, XP is asking WAY MORE in terms of cost vs the AMD platform (even accounting for the cheaper Deus Lite and Orx configurations).  And one could make a valid argument against XP in terms of "value" (bang for your buck) vs. a competently capable 300 Euro Quest AMD wireless machine.

Regardless, the more interfaces that are introduced to the designer for which the designer has little to no control over (even if some of them are determined by capable high-end industry standards such as BT LE), then you start impacting optimization and cost.  You have to worry about sharing that non-dedicated device's processing with non-related applications and tasks, then you introduce a myriad of variables including processing latency and interruptions. 

It's kind of like the argument over whether multiple selectable frequency detectors can ever be as optimized as single frequency detectors on a specific detecting task (e g. gold prospecting).  The Jack of all trades, Master of none adage.

No doubt Quests' partnering with its established business, technical, manufacturing infrastructure will help with distribution of the existing design. The question is whether Quest can, will (and should) tweak it technically beyond where AMD took the platform (i.e., after at least fixing the advertised functionality that does not currently work).  Or instead just sell it as an entry level detector to non-MD-hobbiests (and as a novelty to curious MD hobbiests) who are comfortable with the cell phones and curious about treasure hunting enough to make the impulse buy without realizing the hobby entails more than just strapping your phone to a stick with a coil.  

But part of the appeal is that it theoretically should be cheaper than a purpose built machine with similar capabilities because the manufacturer just has to provide an app and not a control head since the phone serves that purpose. But so far, the recent detector wars have driven prices of much more capable detectors (Simplex and the ML Xterra Pro) to less than the mentioned 300 EU  Quest/AMD price point.

If Quest intends to simply fix the flaws of the existing AMD entry level detector design and market it to the those who might jump on it as an impulse buy or due to its novelty, then they may find a suitable market niche.  The kickstarter campaign attracted significant interest, after all.

While I definitely have my doubts about the platform's ultimate destination and relevancy, that doesn't mean I'm not going to be curious about and keep tabs on where it ultimately ends up.  Would love to be proven wrong by Quest taking the basic concept well beyond what I could have imagined such as a legitimate value competitor to XP.  (The equivalent of what Nokta is to ML).

1 hour ago, moiloon said:

and they show the +?   why will mine just not work grrrrrrr, is there a specific process you use? as i seem to have tried every way imaginable, even last night went down to lower firmware on the nox, same, so went back up to the latest as it changed nothing regarding my issue

Do a factory reset on the Nox and if the EP650 has a reset feature, try that as well and then attempt a re-pairing.  If your EP650 is now labled as BT 5.X, they may have gone to a newer chipset that deleted APTX-LL compatibility in favor of APTX Adaptive (even though BT 5.X compliant Headsets can still support the APTX-LL chipset).  APTX Adaptive may be configured in firmware to either support or not support APTX-LL legacy.  It's kind of a crapshoot, unfortunately.

46 minutes ago, moiloon said:

are you using the deus though with the sound blaster jam v2? and not he nox?? 

He uses them on the Nox too.  They work fine and yes the + symbol shows up when paired.  He has tried a number of different 3rd party wireless headsets with the Nox.  He only recommends those he has tested and that he himself verified work in low latency mode, so heed his advice.

On 3/7/2023 at 8:50 PM, Rolland said:

also my head phones keep disconnecting and picking up noise unless I'm right next to head of detector

One thing I have learned on minimizing dropouts when using the Garrett wireless phones is to keep the receiver side of the phones (the cup with the power switch and status light) on the side of my head adjacent to my swing arm to keep my noggin from blocking transmission between the control head and the phones.  It really makes a difference.

10 hours ago, ☠ Cipher said:

With Quest taking this project over maybe it will actually move. Predicted release is April-June this year at around 300 euros.

Assuming everything is compatible and works together glitch free, still trying to figure out why I would want to pay more for a detector with less capability than the X-terra Pro (<300  Euros) and I have to still provide the physical interface myself (i.e., tie up my overutilized phone) in the process.

17 hours ago, Norvic said:

Rolland go back and check out Steves Axiom posts especially in regards to sensitivity settings. It is not an Auto machine as the 6000 is, thus requires user input and time to understand, master it and you will not be disappointed.

Agree! This^ This^ This^

It's not just about GB, frequency scan, and sensitivity (though it can be that simple in mild ground and low EMI).  I've summarized my approach to "noise" below based on Steve's Axiom recommendations and the settings descriptions in the user manual.

Every setting is critical and addresses the different sources of noise (EMI and Ground Feedback) that affect stability.

Rolland - it is essential that you learn how to differentiate whether the noise/instability you are experiencing is coming from ground feedback due to frequent variations in ground effects or hot rocks OR if the source is EMI.  I address a recommended methodology to figure this out below and what settings to adjust once you've figured out the source/type of noise/instability.

Ground related stability/settings:

GB is dual channel and different methods are spelled out in the manual to help you cancel ground/salt and/or hot rocks.  Learn the nuances.

Note that the mode selections are really timing settings that are geared more towards soil type (mild, difficult, hot, and salt) vs. target "size" (fine, normal large, and salt). So pick the mode based on your prevailing local ground conditions.

Decide on whether you want/need to use GB tracking noting that using aggressive tracking can affect depth and stability.  Coming from my GPX hot ground experience, I like to let the detector tell me (via ground feedback audio) when it needs to be manually rebalanced than risk missing marginal target signals by using tracking.  If I did consider using ground tracking, it would be no more aggressive than SLOW.

EMI related stability:

Start with default sensitivity and set SPEED to SLOW for maximum stability and run a frequency scan.  Adjust sensitivity as necessary and threshold to suit.  I like mine barely audible.  Don't be afraid to reduce sensitivity as necessary to get the machinecto run stable and quiet.  In high EMI suburban areas that might mean running sensitivity as low as 2 or 3, if that's what it takes to get a stable threshold to sense targetsxatvthe edge ofcdetection.  Yes you will lose depth and small target sensitivity but that's preferred to not being able to differentiate any target out of continuous noise.

To differentiate Ground Noise from EMI stability, set mode based on the prevailing ground conditions (i.e., mild/fine, difficult/normal, hot/large, or salt), Ground Balance with tracking off then keep your coil grounded and stationary.  If you experience noise/instability then the noise source is likely EMI > frequency scan and then adjust speed, sensitivity, and threshold as necessary.

HTH

As an alternative, if you prefer to use earbuds while detecting, you can just plug wired, quality earbuds into the WS 6 puck or WSA II puck using the accessory headphone jack adapter plate (about $15) to remain untethered to the detector while placing the puck in a pocket or pouch.

2 hours ago, phrunt said:

I think time will be the solution to this, phone hardware is improving in leaps and bounds, Bluetooth has had dramatic improvements in data transfer rates lately and the new Bluetooth quickly becoming standard, phones often have a limited life and people are upgrading often from broken screens, dropping them in the toilet :), the battery dying or just because they want the new fancy models.  They could set the minimum requirements via the app to make sure it only runs on suitable hardware and advertise it as such.  They could run the app with high priority set by the operating system to ensure the apps not lagging because of other apps on the device.

Time will tell, technology is improving all the time, what may seem like a crazy idea now may become the norm in the future.

Never say never, as it's quite possible this will be the future of detectors.

Wireless coils?   You're a fan now? 

This BT T/R should work fine as it supports APTX-LL.   Do you have a preferred set of BT APTX-LL phones you are planning to use (or purchase) with it or are you going to buy 2 of these to use with a preferred set of wired earbuds or phones?

I honestly have not heard many complaints about the quality of the included wireless phones. But I understand earbuds may be preferred in hot weather. 

8 minutes ago, phrunt said:

It's hard for me to think about the US prices, they're just so different so when I'm thinking I'm never thinking about US pricing.

Yep they're in the big box stores here and yeah I've seen the cheesy NG branded ones too in store and on Amazon.  But they are just not priced competitively here compared to ML's other offerings.  So it would be hard for Nokta to really make a dent for Go Find customers who could easily pay the same for a Vanquish or just $70 more for an X-Terra.  It's just so crowded in the sub $200 price point, its really hard for someone to break in and start smashing Go Find sales since all the choices down there just split the consumer's vote as they are basically just generic noise as far the consumer is concerned.  At that point they are just an impulse buy and one box is as good as another.  You would basically have to offer the low end Simplex for less than $100 and now you are competing with your own "Mini" and "Midi" "Hoard" which are priced at the Go Find level.  It's just really compressed and fractured down there in the US.

23 minutes ago, phrunt said:

The Simplex will smash the Go-Find market to pieces.

Is Go Find really selling all that well such that Nokta has to really compete at that level? I mean Go Find 22 is at $120 and Go Find 66 is at $199.  With the Vanquish 340 is also at $199 and with X-Terra Pro at $269, Minelab is doing a great job smashing Go Find's relevancy on their own.

Since you are talking fresh water hunting, then Orx should be as stable as Legend in the water so Orx's limited stability in salt water vs. the Legend shouldn't be a concern.

However, Legend has several advantages over Orx for what you are looking for. 

Orx is primarily designed for natural gold detecting with limited "coin" modes added almost as an afterthought to slightly broaden it's appeal as an alternative to its more expensive sibling, the XP Deus.  That technology is basically more than a decade old, and while it still works well it was surpassed by the multifrequency XP Deus 2 (although the Orx probably still has an advantage over Deus 2 for Micro Gold, for now,  based on its higher maximum operating frequency of 80+ khz using the small elliptical coil, for now).  But I am not recommending that you get the Deus 2, because the cost is signficant.  I am also not recommending the Orx either - despite its sensitivity on micro gold, that doesn't naturally translate into it being a superior gold jewelry detector., performance wise.  Furthermore, making Orx work submerged involves more than just putting the remote in a sealed bag.  You also need to run an antenna from the coil up the shaft and make sure that it terminates above the waterline in order to get the "wireless" signal from the coil to the remote.  I consider that claptrap (antenna PLUS waterproof bag) an added hassle vs. a purpose built submersible detector.  The Orx is a great micro gold detector, but would not be my first, second, or even third choice for submerged jewelry detecting or even coin shooting.

Legend is much more versatile as an excellent jewelry detector, coin shooter, relic detector, and prospecting detector all rolled into one and it is purpose built to be operated submerged and it has excellent salt stability as a result of its simultaneous multifrequency functionality, should you ever decide to take it to a salt beach or salt lake.  I would recommend getting the LG24 elliptical accessory coil for submerged detecting as it gives you less hydrodynamic drag vs. the stock 11" round coil and more swing coverage vs. the 6-inch round.  As a result of its versatility and cost, is a much greater value overall (than Orx or even Equinox).  You may want to invest in wired waterproof phones should you be going deep enough to submerge the control head as wireless audio will not work with the control head submerged.  If you are primarily going to be using it for freshwater work, I would not bother with the Pro Pack because I think the LG24 is a much more versatile coil than the 6" round included in the pro pack.  And the Pro Pack's extended use battery is pretty much an unnecessary accessory as it is not waterproof and occupies the multipurpose headphone/charging/updating plug when in use.  Save your money and get the wireless package and see if you can swing a deal with your dealer to throw in the LG24 coil and/or a pair of Nokta waterproof wired phones, instead.

BTW I love my XP Deus 2 and have owned the Deus, Orx, and Nox (as well as the Legend), so, if anything, I would be biased to XP.  But of the two detectors you are considering, pretty much think Legend is a no brainer, despite your lackluster first go round with it.  It definitely performs, and you need to give it a chance to prove itself.  I would suggest simply using it in all the situations where you would normally use the Impact to learn it then take it into the water when you have gained enough confidence in its abilities.

You didn't mention this but Quest is also coming out with a submersible multifrequency detector the V60/V80 series.  This interesting as it appears to have a higher upper frequency range than Legend, Nox, Deus 2 or Manticore in multifrequency (80khz) and the V80 has a 60 khz single frequency setting which is higher than the typical 40 khz on Legend, Deus 2, Nox, and Manticore.  FWIW.

Need to know what is going on with the higher end Simplex.  If it is not selectable single frequency, at least, then Nokta has lost the battle battle before it started if ML actually hits the $269 price point with X-Terra Pro.

16 minutes ago, phrunt said:

The X-Terra Pro looks to be $269 USD,

OK Missed that price announcement.  That's not a bad price point for selectable Single Frequency.  Which is really where Nokta should go with the "new" Simplex.

If Nokta is embracing BT whole heartedly they really need to get the BT variant of their PP out there.  And probably move away from APTX to BLE.  They deadended pulse dive wireless integration when they abandoned their proprietary wireless accessories on Legend.

18 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!!!  We can sit here in the cheap seats (with our prejudices, e.g. "I want coil ABC so it ought to be a no brainer that they make it yesterday") but I'm pretty sure they have people on the payroll whose sole job is to figure out pricing, distribution, etc. that will maximize their profits.  We may be right (i.e. the smart ones) and they may be wrong (i.e. the stupid ones) but I highly doubt that.

My idea was they (the bean counters) could have their cake and eat it too.  Have Coiltek take the investment burden of coil manufacture and aftermarket support off ML's hands and then ride the wave of increased Manticore sales resulting from people who are swayed by the aftermarket coil choices.  Also, the Coiltek 10x5 coil has been a smashing success from both a performance and sales perspective.  Coiltek had a lot of trouble keeping up with demand.  Don't understand why ML wouldn't want to aggressively get in a position to grab a piece of that action while the Manticore post-release hype and enthusiasm bubble is at its peak.

13 minutes ago, Luis said:

we are seeing a big price reduction in Minelab than we are not used to, we are seeing it in beginner detectors to compete with nokta as well as in the high end with the introduction of the axiom.  I don't know what will happen when Nokta presents its pulse detector.  Welcome be the competition

 

I have not seen this big ML price reduction of which you speak.  Maybe I am misinterpreting your post?

Yes, Nox 600/800 was a paradigm shift for ML as it brought relatively affordable, premium Simultaneous MF to the masses back in 2018. It was a game changer in terms of value (superior performance at reasonable cost).

However that really didn't set ML on a path to be a leader in affordable, capable detectors going forward despite increased pressure from competitors of late (Garrett, Nokta, XP, and now Quest).

The revamped Nox 700/900 (arguably what Nox should have been when released 5 years ago) was priced higher than the legacy Nox 600/800 and that was AFTER ML RAISED the price on the Nox 800 by $100US 4 years after release.   

The Manticore improves on some of Nox's features and adds a 2 D display but is the debateable incremental improvement in performance with a physical/ergonomic design equivalent to the Nox 900 worth the $600 premium over the Nox 900?

Now they are getting ready to release a multiple selectable frequency machine (Xterra Pro) that doesn't appear to be poised to come in under the SMF Nokta Legend price point.

I have not seen ANY ML answer to the Garrett Axiom and don't expect to any time soon since it's only been about a year plus since the GPX 6000 PI was released in the US at a price about $2K US more than the Axiom.

So really, I am not understanding your point.

Safe travels!

8 hours ago, strick said:

The targets read the same sweeping 360 with them laying flat in their side so I don't know what they would read if you changed the orientation pointing vertical...I can cut the shank off one of the larger pyramid sinkers to find out...and then stick the pointy end into the grass as well lol.

Didn't know you did the pyramids 360 and it didn't change the trace shape much.  Probably not worth it to go through the effort.   Seems then that mass/volume is the most significant attribute especially in regards to how it pushes the target off the centerline.  Thanks for the additional info, strick.

I pretty much confirmed that you have to be a member of the private Quest Metal Detectors Facebook Group in order to view the videos.  Hopefully, Andy will post the videos to YouTube or directly on this site.