Chase Goldman

Can you discern any backmarks?

Interesting.  Looks like an issue with how a batch of the screens were manufactured for the faceplate and it slipped by QC before being put into production assembly.  If that's the case, another black eye for ML.  The quality and/or production managers have some explaining to do.

Hopefully Mark Gillespie will come back too and give us an update.

So that scratch went through and underneath the screen protector? 

7 hours ago, StarVatrex said:

...and It works on the beach with yellow!

First day, beach 2, original settings; as I said in "Meter & Greet".

Sound like Equinox.

What headphones are you using with your Xterra Pro?

3 hours ago, CCadrin said:

My guess they are working on a software update and it would need to be tweeked for the 8 and 15" coils. What works as for a 11 inch may not work for the other sizes. One major software release and then the hardware will follow not to far behind.

Possiby.  Though I seriously doubt the software is held hostage by the coil designs or vice versa at this point, especially for "off nominal" accessory coils.  If a coil design is impacted by a SW tweak at this stage, what chance does it have to perform adequately in the infinite variability of environmental conditions.  Conversely, if the detector (signal processing) requires exacting coil dimensional tolerances as ML has claimed to explain the extra ribbing on the stock coil, then I shudder to think of the product performance variability resulting from Minelab's production vendor's demonstrated shoddy production quality.

The deal is probably that ML (unlike XP) outsources production and they simply haven't made the investment needed with their production subcontractor to spool up the assembly lines for the Manticore coils yet, probably because they are prioritizing the new Nox and Xterra Pro production lines because they will sell more of those cheaper units than Manticore coils.

On 3/26/2023 at 9:33 AM, Jeff McClendon said:

I would probably just get the Vanquish 440 and the XT Pro but I would want wireless headphones for the XT Pro (another $140 or so).

At this point, I would just get a BT APTX-LL dongle ($20) for the Xterra Pro and re-purpose APTX-LL phones (or buy new ones for less than $40) to go wireless with the Xterra to save on the $140 phones that ML won’t even let you purchase as an accessory yet.

Would have cost all of $30 and perhaps additional shipping one way to send it in to the repair center to have the battery replacement done and even after you broke it, they probably would have repaired your damage too for little if any additional cost.  You cost yourself the $300+ replacement by getting frustrated and throwing it away. SMH.

Never met him but did have forum discussions with him.  Was impressed by his assessments of recently released detectors like the Ace Apex and Vanquish.  He quickly identified the flawed implementation of fixed ground balance on the Vanquish (each mode responded to the same patch of ground differently) and gave advice on how to work around it.  I was also amused by his tendency (with lower cost detectors) to buy a detector for each accessory coil that he owned instead of buying just the accessory coils so he didn’t have to futz with changing out the coils in the field, just grab the detector with the coil he wanted out of the vehicle.

His Nail Board test has worldwide recognition and that legacy will live on.

RIP Monte.

14 hours ago, j71038 said:

It appears that Minelab was looking to gain market share against Garrett and Fisher with the Vanquish line.

Yeah, and then Garrett immediately came out with the Ace Apex with a great, modernized and ergonomic form factor, multi frequency, and selectable single frequency (at the time, the lowest priced detector anywhere with that feature) that satisfied the Garrett fan base that may have started to feel technologically left behind and immediately made the Vanquish feel like a retro toy detector in comparison (that despite its feature flaws, was not a toy).  So ML IMO made a classic blunder by competing with “old news” (the Ace 400) while making real head scratchingly bizarre decisions on feature omissions (e.g., fixed ground balance??) to lower the price point and other decisions to limit it from competing with its own Nox 600 (eliminating coil cross compatibility).  

I think ML got greedy and misjudged both Garrett and Nokta with the Vanquish misfire…and then sat on their laurels and watched XP and Nokta bypass Nox in performance and value with the Deus 2 and Legend, respectively forcing them to announce the Manticore earlier than they planned.  I think ML is on the right track now by trying to focus on the gaps in their lineup while trying to emulate their own with high value detectors that look and feel like their flagships but come in at a great price point.  Now folks who can only afford and Ace or Simplex can get a taste of ML and swing a detector that is almost visually indistinguishable from a Manticore.  Great move and what Vanquish should have been.

Xterra Pro appears to do well on the beach even without Multi IQ which is probably the main benefit of multifrequency (it's no Equinox or Manticore on the beach, but it holds its own as a single frequency machine and it's added user features and adjustments probably make it better than Vanquish overall on the beach).  Xterra is also no slouch as a terra detector.  With the multiple coil choices and numerous user interface and controls for Xterra Pro and updated ergonomics/user interface that aligns with Nox and Manticore plus the Xterra Pro price point, the operational shortcomings of Vanquish (fixed ground balance, does not retain user adjusted settings, no recovery speed adjustment, lack of an anti-EMI single frequency mode) become stark.  Also, Vanquish's retro looks and old-school NiCads make it seem very dated even though it was released more recently than the Nox 600/800.  It now literally looks like a red-headed step child in the line of succession compared to Xterra Pro, Nox, and Manticore and I wouldn't be surprised if ML discontinued it.  If they start trying to make a "Multi IQ" Xterra variant as a value replacement for Vanquish that starts to eat away at both Xterra Pro AND Nox 600 sales.  I don't see the business case for it and it would be good for ML to just discontinue the Vanquish line and save on manufacturing, parts, and support costs.  JMO

2 minutes ago, F350Platinum said:

The "false cut" I wrote about was that you'd get a high tone, and instead of it diving to a low tone it just cut out (cancelled) in another direction. After digging some junk I got used to it. The button was a solid 72 I managed to pick out of some iron around it, kind of a shock to have the 13" do so well but it's not coming off the CF shaft soon! 🙂

Yep, that was a consistent junk tell there and in sharp contrast to the Northern Neck mild dirt farmland.  One thing that I found interesting is how Deus 2 does ground handling.  When you and I were out there, Bob, I went with the 9" coil because "conventional wisdom" would say it "sees less ground" meaning that it would be masked less by ground feedback.   You on the other hand went with the 13x12 which afforded better coverage.  I was glad that we could compare and contrast targets and it showed that with the Deus 2 there did not appear to be a masking penalty associated with going with the big coil.  That is key.  We are talking fully pegged D2 mineralization meter soil here when pumping the coil.  It does not get any hotter than that magnitude wise.  So that is something I will consider under similar circumstances when coverage is key.  In the woods, the smaller coil may afford some maneuverability, but coverage was the order of the day when you have limited site access time.

Great find Bob.  You worked hard for that one and it's a beauty.  I got skunked for the first time ever there and that did not feel good at all (decided not to just remain static and dig bullets in the well known CW camp firing range - been there, done that a few years back and came away with over 80 minies in one day).  But that's the nature of the detecting "biz".  But learned A LOT about how that Axiom behaves near Culpeper with the small 7x11 DD (had already made a couple runs with the larger stock DD) and different settings.  Hopefully, that knowledge, plus a little better luck, will serve me well at DIV this week.  But you never know.  It's typically boom or bust at these events as the CW finds diminish with every visit.

4 minutes ago, RONS DETECTORS MINELAB said:

I am hoping Minelabs next VLF true gold detector has SMF features incorporated into it also. Minelab would also have to offer a smaller nugget coil that comes stock with the package to help keep it in the lower price range overall. 

I'm wondering why no one is offering a single frequency higher than 45khz (Deus 2) on these SMF detectors other than the forthcoming Quest V80 which can go to 60khz in single and tops out at 80khz in SMF.

24 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Anybody thinking the X-Terra Pro is going to rival these SMFs for depth in wet salt sand or submerged in saltwater probably needs to think again.

I am seeing people on other forums (not this one) going goo goo gah gah over the X-Terra Pro like it is an Equinox 700/900 Lite and is the deal of the century. It may look like an Equinox but without Multi IQ SMF tech, it is absolutely not an Equinox Lite. 

Not only is it "da bomb" at salt beaches, Jeff, it easily nails sub gram gold too!  This is a game changer!

9 minutes ago, RONS DETECTORS MINELAB said:

If they called it a Goldmonster Pro though the price could be lower than any other single frequency VLF gold detector on the market.

Though there is not a whole lot of maneuvering room in price for ML to add such features as the SMF Legend which has as much capability as Nox is looming at $499 MAP and can be purchased for closer to $400.

On 3/23/2023 at 6:48 PM, RONS DETECTORS MINELAB said:

If this detector had a small coil and a selectable 18, 45, and 71Khz. frequency option I would call it a Goldmonster 2000.

Yeah but then ML would have to charge $2000 for it.  

1 hour ago, Digalicious said:

Thanks for all that Chase 🙂

So ya, lowering the sensitivity and raising the recovery speed seem to be two major characteristics in beach mode. As such (and with the other MF/SF detectors you mentioned), is depth loss a given with those detectors, when compared to the modern SMF detectors in salt / black sand conditions?

 

The Tarsacci is a niche detector and some avid beach detectorists feel it is very close in performance to SMF detectors.  The F19 can run pretty stable on the beach with little need to reduce sensitivity extensively, but at 19 khz operating frequency it is probably not as deep as SMFs on high conductors.  But I haven't really heard if anyone who would take an F19 or equivalent over a Nox or similar SMF.  HTH.

45 minutes ago, Digalicious said:

From what I've seen, the X-Terra was very quite on the salt beach, although depth was lacking compared to the SMF detectors.

How is a SF detector so quite on the beach? Is it some unique salt algorithm, or perhaps when in Beach Mode, the sensitivity is significantly lowered and the recovery speed significantly raised? (both of which would account for the quietness and mediocre depth).

 

From the User Guide, Xterra somehow identifies "residual salt response" and assigns a "0" TID using it's "specialist salt noise rejection configuration", whatever that means.  It looks like the main difference between Beach Profile 1 (Wet and Dry Sand) and Beach Profile 2 (Underwater and Surf) is Profile 2 has a higher default recovery speed.  Black sand is more problematic without the benefit of Multi-IQ, as your only recourse after ground balancing is to reduce sensitivity.

Salt balance capability is not solely limited to simultaneous multifrequency detectors.  The Fisher F19/Technetics G2+/etc single frequency machine is known for its ability to balance well in salt sand and the Tarsacci MDT 8000, a multiple selectable table single frequency machine is specifically designed to have a salt balance adjustment separate from its ground balance adjustment.  So it can be done, with some limitations.

The Xterra Pro user guide can be downloaded here:

https://www.minelab.com/usa/metal-detectors/x-terra-pro

8 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

They did change the ear design on the Equinox 900/700, right?  Not thicker (AFAIK) but with added angle extensions, effectively stiffening the tabs.  (Pretty sure someone showed a picture of that new configuration here.)

Yep forgot about that. They changed the stock 11" coil ear design to include a threaded insert on one ear.  Don't know about the Xterra coils.  6" and 12x15 coils were not redesigned AFAICT.  Not sure why that was not sufficient for Manticore.

2 hours ago, phrunt said:

they may then adjust the price of the 700 and 900 a little down once the initial flurry of buying is over.

Naw.  They'll probably raise the price like they did with the Nox 800, 3 years after release. 

2 hours ago, phrunt said:

It took them to have a light bulb moment during the design of the Manticore that perhaps they need to fix the ears.

I give them credit for doing something (and now if the ears break, it's a rod replacement not a coil replacement) but why re-engineer and make the solution and lower rod design unique (to Manticore) and more complex to manufacture vs. simply increasing ear thickness across the board...strange.

Also, I wouldn't be too quick to throw stones Nokta's way considering the anecdotal reports of speaker issues cropping up with Manticore.

It's really hard to ascertain failure rates of Nox drownings vs. Legend blown speakers not knowing how many people submerge their detectors vs. run them with the loudspeaker vice headphones.  Also, since the Nox 600/800 leak issue was never really addressed with an actual root cause determination and design/manufacturing fix (unlike the speaker batch issue that Nokta did identify and address), a number of Nox users experienced multiple leak failures after pod replacement.  Which is just inexcusable.  At least I never heard of them not doing a warranty replacement for a leak, so there is that 

Can you actually manipulate the controls through that thing or do you have to turn it on before you button it up?

2 minutes ago, TedinVT said:

Agreed, Chase. No headphone packages available, yet. And ML recommends the ML85 phones which I haven't found sold separately, yet. Yes, they'll probably be in the $139 price area when available. BUT, if the plan is to dedicate the machine as a water hunter, the wired waterproof Nox, etc. headphones we already have will work with the X-Terra.

Makes sense.  Just make sure you're good with its performance in the water and not just wet salt sand if you need it to do both.  It looks really promising, I would just need to see some actual submerged salt water detecting demonstrations with it to be sure.  Otherwise, it's definitely a no-brainer for all the other reasons discussed.  GL HH

2 hours ago, TedinVT said:

So, lots of good comments on my previous post. Be sure you've read the other X-Terra Pro (XTP) usage considerations I stated. My prominent reason for possibly purchasing the XTP is in the water beach detecting. Why would I consider the XTP for that purpose? Here's a link to Calabash's recent XTP saltwater beach test:  https://youtu.be/i6Gs0uKPk1c

A single frequency detector running quietly in saltwater? Who'd have thunk! I had tried my AT Pro in saltwater 6 years ago and quickly learned a 15kHz machine was no match for the saltwater. Great on the dry sand and tolerable in the wet sand. Thus the 800 entering my stable to cover all the bases. But the drowning worry still exists even though it's in its 5th year and I detect up to neck deep in saltwater and fresh water and hasn't leaked - yet. So, for the price and better chances of not leaking than the 800, why not pick up a cheap machine that, so far, seems to be a decent performer in saltwater? Especially if could serve the other purposes I stated in my previous post. The 800 will remain my land machine for sure.

Good discussion guys.

Agree good discussion.  I did read the other usage considerations and restated them in my post.

Like I said in my post, if I'm wrong about the surf performance/stability of Xterra vs. Nox or any other SMF detector, then Xterra is the real deal (i.e., true Nox salt water replacement) and an even better value.  If I was afraid of a Nox drowning, the surf is where Xterra would have to bring the goods.

CD's demonstration of the Xterra in wet salt sand was impressive for a $230 single freaker - it defintely slays Simplex, possibly even Apex. But what I was seeing in his video was performance about 60 to 70% of Nox depth (I've recovered nickels at 14 to 16") in wet salt sand where I have no qualms swinging my Nox even if I drop it.  

The slight falsing when CD did dip the coil in moving salt water and reduced wet salt sand performance vs. Nox tell me it might not be competitive with Nox submerged in moving salt water.

So submerged surf performance and black sand performance for Xterra Pro are TBD. 

BTW - It looks like a killer value as a submersible freshwater rig!

I get the tremendous value of Xterra Pro.   And it makes a nice no-brainer purchase as a competent backup rig if you don't really need to have Nox-like versatility but want Legend-like value in a multiple selectable single frequency machine.

Really not arguing for or against the purchase.

Just not seeing the compelling case for using  the lower performing Xterra instead of Nox as your primary machine going forward in just wet salt sand (where I'm personally not afraid of the Nox "drowning") and surf performance is TBD.  So if those are non-issues for you, that's all that matters, I'm just pointing it out not trying to change your mind.  I do get being cautious with an out of warranty machine.  

In a pinch, I'm definitely willing to use Xterra with confidence as a wet sand beach rig if without a Nox or Legend (or D2 or Manticore) based on what I saw in CD's video.

Xterra Pro appears to makes a great entry level detector including use as a wet salt sand beach rig (first purchase) and I would enthusiastically recommend it to anyone who was considering a Simplex or Vanquish for that purpose.  After seeing that video, Vanquish's continued existence makes even less sense to me.  I agree with Simon that a some Vanquish stripped down Multi-IQ DNA in Xterra would be amazing (at that price point).

One additional consideration on the Xterra price point if you desire wireless audio.  Xterra utilizes ML's implementation of BT LE Audio for which there are no compatible 3rd party phones available now.   Only Minelab's own ML-85's and ML-105's are compatible.  I could be wrong, but I don't believe there are any Xterra Pro packages that include wired or wireless phones.  If the ML-85's mirror the ML-80 standalone accessory price, then add $139 minimum to the detector cost if you want BT LE audio, if they are even available for purchase yet.  Or be prepared to purchase a BT APTX-LL transmitter dongle (~$30) to plug into the Xterra.

(I see Mirda covered some of this while I was typing this up).

Let us know how mineralized the ground is too.  If heavy mineralization, you might want to notch out 00 and give Relic a try with IAR (tge Relic/Gold Field version of "discrimination) set to 3 or 5 (I use 5 - doesn't seem to affect non-ferrous masking even at that Max setting and the ferrous ground feedback at 00 disappears with the notch) iron will readily sound off (if you have iron volume on) while non-ferrous will squeak through.  I use this program in mild dirt too to check potential iron while searching in Deep HC or General.

Speaking of which, you can learn a lot about a target by how it responds to custom programs set up with different parameters, including different audio and switching between those programs while swinging over the target and turning on the target.

Don't forget to set reactivity consistent with target density.  For general open field searching, I like 1 or 1.5.  In bed o' nails, I crank it up to 2 to 2.5, sometimes 3.

For searching I like General or Deep HC with pitch audio as it really pops on any non-ferrous over the iron volume ferrous grunts.

For target interrogation, I switch to relic as it most consistently differentiates falsing ferrous that might show up in Deep HC or General without a turn.  If my search program is providing a pure non-ferrous tone, I dig or switch to a corresponding zero discrimination full tones variant (General aka Relic Reaper or Deep HC) of my main pitch search program if I suspect aluminum can slaw, junk, or cans.  FT really beings out the hollow,  distorted audio associated with irregularly shaped mid-conductive targets or the overload distortion associated with large cans that give off coin IDs.

FWIW.

Good luck out there and hope you get some goodies.

3 hours ago, TedinVT said:

I agree that most of us already have everything we need in our current high end detectors. My reasons for buying an X-Terra Pro (assuming I can sell my AT Pro first) would be to use it exclusively as a beach machine so I don't risk drowning my 800, as a backup machine (we all want a backup machine right?), a simple to use spare machine for maybe getting my wife interested or for getting a friend interested, plus I'm your basic tech junkie. And if dealers give the 15% Minelab veterans' discount on low priced machines, it's now a $229 steal😎

Everything you say about getting an Xterra (if you already have an 800) makes sense (value priced backup/loaner plus compatibility with Nox coils) except for maybe the exclusive beach machine part.

We need to wait and see how the Xterra performs in the wild, but if you are worried about drowning your 800, that means you intend to take your Xterra into the surf, instead.  I could be proven wrong, but I seriously doubt the Xterra being a single frequency machine will run anywhere as stable as the 800 in that situation at a reasonable sensitivity setting despite having a “beach” mode.    So is it really a viable alternative to a fully functional 800 in that situation?

So, for me, it’s either the out-of-warranty 800 or a suitable wet surf alternative unless and until the Xterra proves it can even minimally perform there.   I believe it may do better than the AT Pro in salt surf and in wet salt sand (which is probably where ML intends Xterra 8kHz “beach mode” to be used) but if I am just doing wet salt sand, then I am still pulling my out-of-warranty 800 out for the extra edge in performance vs. Xterra because there is little risk of “drowning” the 800 there.  Even if I did drown it, I would press ML hard for an extended warranty “consideration” against a replacement pod (~$375 out of warranty replacement cost) because I used it only as ML recommended and it is all but confirmed that ML had some sort of design or manufacturing flaw that contributed to the failure (hence part of the motivation for the 700/900 redesign).  

If ML had at least provided a limited “beach only” multi frequency mode on Xterra (which would still not significantly intrude into Equinox territory) then the Xterra “beach machine” substitute for a “land locked” 800 would make a lot more sense.  It would also be a great reason for ML to shelve the Vanquish lineup (which made a lot less sense after the Ace Apex was released), improving Xterra sales even further.  

But since all of that Xterra Multifrequency Beach Mode discussion is a fantasy and moot, and having a capable and versatile and affordable beach/backup to your Equinox is a goal, then a bare bones Legend might be something to consider as well.  If you do your homework, a bare bones Legend (i.e., without the BT headset) can be had for less than $400.  That’s not $229, I know, but it’s a hell of a lot more machine than the Xterra for an additional $150 to $170 if your primary motivation is decent beach work and not just solely for getting a low cost backup or tech junkie buy.

Again, just something to consider.  FWIW.