steveg

3 hours ago, abenson said:

Probably didn't give enough information on the first post about this and it might seem a bit more clear cut that it really is. To address pinpoint first, there is no difference in the way the target pinpointed with disc on vs disc off. Second, when I run an open screen I have my ferrous volume turned up quite a bit and that is probably one reason it's harder to tell a comingled target for me. So I should probably turn that down. But when disc is implemented I only hear the targets that are in the open screen and I would say they sound more clipped than they do studdery like they do on the Equinox. Look at Rattlehead's video and you can see how it acts. Third, Audio was all over the place running open screen 1 region all tones and the ID was mostly high single digits with an occasional high number spike. Disc on cleaned those ID's up to mostly 78-80. Possibly could make that sound better by running prospecting audio.  Finally, the target trace when open is is quite a bit more active than when running a disc pattern. From what I can remember, on this particular target when the screen was open I had a big blob that was almost S shaped that went from left lower limits, smeared across the middle line over to where the dime ID was and then straight up to the right top of upper limits. There were also various other small black dots in a few places on the screen. When the disc pattern was implemented I clearly remember it changing to two separate traces, one in the left lower limits and one that went from the top of the screen to the center line at about where a dime would ID. Galvanized pipe is steel with a zinc coating so kind of a unique target setup here.

Decided to add a drawing of kind of what I saw.

 

abenson,

THANK YOU for the additional information. 

1.  OK -- so NO change on target pinpoint, for this target, when disc. was on OR off.  That is what I would have expected, as pinpoint is, I thought, a mode WITHOUT discrimination, such that EVEN IF you have targets discriminated, that should NOT be reflected once you enter pinpoint mode.  So, that's good.  One "potentially mind-blowing" thing has been clarified!

2.  Next, you said audio was "all over the place," in open screen, but when you switched to disc, you would get "clipped" high tones, which -- again -- makes sense to me.  Sounds like, as would be expected, you are hearing the PORTION of the co-mingled target that was the non-ferrous high tone, and eliminating (via disc.) the low-tone-generating aspects of this co-mingled target.    OK, so I think this makes sense under my "current" understanding/paradigm, and nothing "mind-blowing" here.  Good...

3.  You said in open screen, the mostly single-digit VDI with an occasional high-VDI spike, changed to mostly 78 to 80 VDI when disc was engaged.  Again, this basically makes sense to me, as -- just like the audio -- you "took away" the higher percentage of low VDIs being generated by the zinc pipe, leaving the machine with only one choice...which was to display any VDI it could generate that was in the accepted range (as 78-80 was).  I think the only part here that surprises me, is that it was ABLE to generate 78 to 80 VDI -- i.e. very accurate dime ID, EVEN THOUGH that pipe was there, and COULD HAVE (and would have, I'd think, on many machines) biased the dime ID lower, i.e. more of a "mixed" ID or "average" ID of the two targets.  Sounds like the MC did a great job of separating, showing you two distinct targets.  But, it took your use of disc. to make it MORE CLEAR that there WERE two targets.

4.  Finally, the target trace.  This one remains the most puzzling to me.  WHAT HAPPENED to all of those traces, between the low-VDI "blob" lower left, and the high-VDI blob on the right-hand side of the screen?  Yes, with no disc, things like EMI, ground noise, etc. can show up as small, brief, transient dots all over the screen.  So, I get why turning on disc would clean some of that up (since SOME of those random plots/dots would be "discriminated").  BUT, that doesn't explain that "west-to-east" or "left-to-right" strip of target plots across the center of the screen DISAPPEARING, apparently, when you entered disc. mode.  Again, those plots should show up EITHER WAY; the only difference should be if, and then how, they report audibly (based on your disc. and limits settings).  This part is the primary thing I have yet to reconcile...but...perhaps it could be explained by slight "sweep angle" changes, slightly not centered over the target in the same way, etc., when you switched from open screen, to disc. mode?  

I think bottom line, is that my understanding/current paradigm is still correct, such that I don't think anything is happening here that cannot, at least generally, be explained as falling into the realm of what we have understood in terms of how MC operates.

WITH THAT SAID, abenson, your post STILL illustrates (which was probably your original point) that you are learning some interesting ways to effectively use MC's discrimination (and "iron mask" as you were noting as a hold-over term from FBS days) and its limits settings, to "clean up" the audio and the VDI when there are mixed-target scenarios, so that the "good" can shine through more easily, instead of being partially drowned out by the "bad."  Given what seem to be very good "separation" capabilities on this unit, it makes things like this possible, apparently...

And finally, I hope none of this comes across in any way "offensive" or as though I am "challenging" you.  I really am just trying to understand in a very detailed way, AND I am an "external" processor, so I figure things out using words, LOL!  And so, when my words come out, it's all out there...everything my brain is thinking, ends up "spoken" (or, on the page, in this case)!  So, my point is that this is truly me just trying to wrap my brain around this machine, and trying to test --  against my current understanding -- all of the things that folks I trust are witnessing/experiencing as we all learn this machine together...

Good stuff abenson.

Thanks!

Steve
 

GB_Amateur,

YES.  A "choppy/herky-jerky" non-ferrous tone, is in my mind what SHOULD happen on such a target when you engage disc/notch.

Let's say you have that "nail/coin" target I mentioned above.  With open screen, and with appropriate limits set, you should hear a mix of non-ferrous and ferrous tones, let's say 50/50 mix.  So, when you discriminate out the iron ID portion (and thus the ferrous tones dissapear), then you SHOULD hear the 50% non-ferrous tones, but since you are only hearing "50%" of the conglomerated target, you are missing the other 50%, and thus is sounds "choppy."

THAT is what I would expect.  But this does NOT seem to be what abenson is suggesting.  He literally said there was a 6" deep dime that he could NOT HEAR, when running open screen, the target giving single-digit VDI, and with a completely splattered target trace, but once he applied disc, a perfect 80-81 ID showed up, with a completely different target trace, AND with good, clear/solid, proper high tone...and, if I understood him correctly, even a DIFFERENT PINPOINT RESULT?

This is really frying my brain here...

Steve

On 2/20/2023 at 7:10 PM, abenson said:

I can tell you for absolute certain on a 6" deep clad dime I dug today, you wouldn't have heard it running horseshoe on. There was an old galvanized sprinkler pipe in the ground at a park I was hunting today. I past over the target in the disc pattern I made with iron audio off and got a clear 78-80 ID and audio, target trace showed a line top of the screen down to the center line. But when I went to open screen the audio got funky and the ID dropped to single digits and trace splattered all over. When I pinpointed I got nothing but a long signal running away from where I got the original signal both directions. So I went back to the disc pattern and got the same dime like ID. I thought this sounds to good to be the pipe. I ended up pinpointing the target by crossing the target at 30 degree angles from the pipe and drew an X, dug down and sure enough there was a dime at about 6".

abenson -- this part REALLY puzzles me, for many reasons.  Wow.

For ONE thing, here's part of what puzzles me...

It is (was?) my understanding that target trace in the MC SHOULD be the same (when the machine is running in a particular mode, with particular recovery speed, etc.) NO MATTER where you set your disc (if any) or your ferrous limits.  In other words, the target plot is the target plot, period...the only thing disc. or ferrous limits affect, is the AUDIO REPORT of that target -- i.e. whether you hear the target OR NOT (disc), or if you hear the target report with conductive tones, or with ferrous tones (limits).  In other words, the target will plot the same way on the screen NO MATTER WHAT, you are only affecting the AUDIO OUTPUT of the target, when changing disc. settings or limits settings.

HOWEVER, what you are saying, is that when you switched from open screen (no disc. applied/all-metal mode), into your disc. pattern, that not only did your AUDIO change drastically (which it should), but...

1.  your TARGET TRACE drastically changed...

2.  the pinpoint of the target drastically changed, and...

3.  the VDI of the target drastically changed? 

This, based on my understanding, should NOT be the case.  Audio reporting changes?  ABSOLUTELY.  But changes in how the target plots on the screen?  Changes in the target's PINPOINT BEHAVIOR?  Change in reported VDI?  Based on my understanding, that should NOT be happening, but you are saying that it IS?

Oh my.  As I ponder this, this suggests to me that in the sequence of events within the processing that occurs with MC, discrimination is being applied FIRST, in the "order of things," with respect to target signal processing.  THEREFORE, everything downstream is affected (and in a POSITIVE WAY)! 

So, in essence, it sounds like what you are saying is happening, is this:

Say you have a nail and a coin side-by-side, which in "open screen" (no disc.) are too close together to get two totally separate signals.  Instead, you get a "blend" of the two targets -- tonally, VDI-wise, and target trace (a "smear" so to speak), and, a rather "long" pinpoint readout of the combined target.  BUT -- it SOUNDS like, from what you are saying, that IF YOU EXIT ALL-METAL MODE (via the horseshoe button), and enter DISC mode, then, the discriminated target to some degree DISAPPEARS.  It is NOT THERE, as far as the machine is concerned, as it processes the signal downstream after disc. is applied.  In other words, in my nail/coin example, assuming your disc. was set such that the nail is discriminated, then the machine essentially doesn't see the nail when it generates the target trace plot, it doesn't see the nail when it assigns an audio tone, it doesn't see the nail when it calculates a VDI number, and it doesn't see the nail EVEN WHEN YOU ENGAGE PINPOINT MODE???

I cannot imagine this to be the case, and I am trying really hard to keep my skepticism at bay -- because I actually trust what you are saying/observing...but I'm really trying to figure out how this can be the case.  If this IS INDEED the way the MC functions, this is an incredible (to me), and amazing (to me) technological leap, and is a brain-shattering, big-time eye-opening revelation for me that would result in an IMPERATIVE, start-from-the-ground-up complete overhaul of how I understand, and use, the Manticore...

This needs to be confirmed.

Wow...

Steve

7 hours ago, Shelton said:

I was start from Fast and Depth audio profile and after that I was switch to LC. I should to use Fast in iron busy place but LC is better for me. It was amazing feeling to start pull masked coins again… one big copper was from corner of site. Believe me I was scan that place about two years with all other brands with different settings and patterns - direction vs target. After that click and I was start to find coins again. Not one but 8 more in 30 minutes. But I need more time with Manticore.

OK, so you started in All-Terrain Fast (thinking it would be best in iron), but you were not doing well with that mode; so, THEN you switched to All-Terrain Low Conductors, and got drastically different results.  That is very interesting...

Steve

PUHH --

Very interesting.  I wish I knew more of what I was looking at, with those graphs/that equipment, and I wish someone could translate the Russian to English!

BUT -- it was clear that "amplitude" (power?) of the MC signal trace is DEFINITELY greater than EQX.  It was also obvious that the amplitude of the MC signal trace, while running in both ATHC and ATLC, was the same.  ONLY when switching to beach mode, was the amplitude reduced.  So, can it safely be concluded that there is NOT more xmit power in ATHC, vs. ATLC?  If so, this would suggest perhaps it's the lower frequency weighting that makes the machine more "unstable" in iron? 

Another interesting note...the signal trace in beach mode on the MC (like in the EQX) shows reduced "amplitude" (power?) of the signal by some percentage...which we already knew.  BUT -- if you note the amplitude on the graph for MC beach mode...it's interesting that while it's definitely reduced compared to the other MC modes, its reduction moved it ONLY down to the same as the amplitude of the REGULAR hunt modes in EQX (with EQX beach mode being lower still).

So, said another way, I tentatively conclude:

1.  MC "xmit power" greater than EQX...
2.  MC "xmit power" the same, in ATHC and ATLC (ONLY lower in beach mode)
3.  MC beach mode "xmit power" is reduced from other MC modes, BUT -- reduced to the level of EQX STANDARD modes...
4.  EQX beach mode "xmit power" was the lowest of all, lower than EQX standard modes, and MUCH lower than MC standard modes AND beach modes...

Interesting.  And please, if anyone more knowledgeable about electricity/electronics than I can point out flaws in my understanding, please do!  I would like to understand this properly...

Steve

JCR -- it kind of SEEMS that way...but not sure...and I doubt we'll ever know.

Shelton -- to clarify, you started out in HC, and then switched to LC and changed a few other settings, and as a result, you were able to have better success?

Steve

Rattlehead,

Very hard to say, as I don't have enough hours on the machine to get a feel for how accurate the IDs SHOULD be...

Interesting that you say that though...I dug a roughly 6" deep Roosevelt silver dime, and the ID was bouncing between 60s and 90s...and I assumed it must have been on edge, due to the way it ID'd.  But, maybe it was partly due to the ATLC...

Hunterjunk,

I hear you!  That's how I felt!  The machine got so quiet when I switched out of ATHC, that I started thinking something was wrong!  🙂

I'm going to try All-Terrain General, soon...but might stick with ATLC for a bit...though I think Rattlehead may be right, now that I think more about it.  I think VDI will suffer, in low conductor mode...

Steve

Hey all.

Just a brief post here (at least, brief by my standards, LOL) to share something quick that I've learned so far...

I primarily hunt DEEP old coins, and I generally hunt areas in central Oklahoma, where irony-red clay prevails.  This dirt is problematic, for many machines...so that's some background, for context.

SO FAR, in my dirt, I've found that running the Manticore in All-Terrain High Conductors is very difficult, when nails and such abound.  The high-tone falsing is very problematic.  It's NOT that I can't figure out what is a false, and what might be a "real" high-conductive non-ferrous target.  BUT -- it DOES require me to stop, and spend a couple of seconds "interrogating" the target, to confirm that it's a likely a "false."  And so, the issue is, in areas with abundant iron objects in the ground, I am stopping CONSTANTLY to confirm each one of those high tones...and thus, I'm not able to cover ground, being instead "detained" by the abundant high tones I'm hearing. 

Finally, during my last hunt, being barraged by high-tone falses, I cried "uncle," and switched to All-Terrain Low Conductors and...what a NIGHT AND DAY difference.  I was literally SHOCKED, within about 5 seconds of switching modes.  The high-tone falsing was cut IMMEDIATELY by 90 to 95%...

The other benefit, was that I was having to lower sensitivity lower than I wanted to, when in ATHC, trying to combat the high-tone iron falsing.  While the EMI conditions would have allowed higher sensitivity settings, I had lowered to 21/22, trying to "calm down" the falsing, but with very little success.  Obviously, I could have gone even lower, and maybe, eventually, found a setting that would reduce some of the falsing noise, BUT, given that I was targeting very deep coins, in a heavily hunted park, I felt that I would have been sabotaging my efforts to lower it much further.  BUT -- after switching to ATLC, and re-ground-balancing and a new "long-press" noise cancel, I was able to move my sensitivity up substantially.  I ended up running it at 27 to 28 the remainder of the day, that being the level that was just below where EMI would have become audible...just on the "edge," so to speak.

So, I just wanted to toss that out there, for anyone finding that the machine, in their dirt, is especially "falsy" on nails/iron.  I will try All-Terrain General, as well, in subsequent hunts, but for now, I'm going to stick with ATLC, as it is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MACHINE for me, in my dirt, changing to this mode.

Steve

Thanks, eclipse!

Steve

On 2/21/2023 at 4:48 AM, Hunterjunk said:

Gday Steve , you were right , HC mode chews power and there is nothing wrong with your battery . On Saturday I managed 7:45 run time , and some of that was in the red zone on the battery indicator . I turned the detector off before it shut it's self down . That run time consisted of HC mode and nearly 2 hours of Prospecting mode , all without headphones . At the end of the day I dumped my 4000 Ma power bank into the Manti which topped up the battery to just over one third capacity .  Used the Nox on Sunday !

Monday I hunted 7:15 hours in HC mode and stopped when the battery indicator hit red . Used headphones .

Today using headphones I ran 6:00 hours in HC mode , and 1:00 hour in Trash Reject . Indicator was still green , but only just !

Tomorrow I am off to buy a 10,000 Ma power pack .

THANKS for the confirmation, Hunterjunk.  I'm glad to know that it's not my battery that's the issue, just the nature of the "Beast" (no pun intended!)

Steve

THANKS, afreak!  🙂

Steve

rvpopeye --

THANK YOU!

Kent --

I appreciate the kind words!

Steve

abenson --

I am trying to follow your post, which is very interesting, but it's missing a couple of details I'd like to hear.

SO -- forget about your disc pattern for now, I just want to focus on your "iron mask" (i.e. taking the machine out of all-metal mode, and allowing the "factory" ferrous limits settings to be your "iron disc" or "iron mask").  IN OTHER WORDS, no iron audio at all, correct?

SO, when you say non-ferrous targets "masked by iron" in open screen, suddenly become "non-ferrous tones" when you turn "iron mask" on, are you saying that if you sweep one of these targets in question with open screen, you hear ONLY iron grunts, and NOTHING MORE, but then you turn your "iron mask" on, which eliminates the iron grunts, and NOW you are hearing a good, diggable high tone?  It went from PURE iron grunts to PURE high tone, by switching from "all-metal" to "iron mask on?"

Steve

Al -- 

$69 plus $11 shipping is what I plan to sell them at (for a standard length one; tall-man ones will be $10 more).  But, I will offer them at a $65 "introductory sale price" initially...

So in your case, two of them would be $140 total (shipped).

Just let me know if you would like me to mark you down on the wait list...

Thanks!

Steve

Interesting post, basstrackerman, and one I'll like to see the responses to.  I have only about 10 hours on my MC, so nowhere near enough experience to comment.  I'll be interested in the other comments...

Steve

Thanks for all of this terrific information!

Steve

GB -- I totally agree on your "point number two."  That's what I plan...a way to attach it -- Velcro?  Otherwise?  And then, attach it under the arm cuff (i.e. attach to the arm cuff stand).  Yes, it would act as a counterweight, and yes, that would help, with the MC.

With your point number one, the only reason I wanted to do it the other way -- i.e. attach it at the BEGINNING of a long hunt, is that I was concerned that if the battery went dead, that a portable charger would not supply enough power to "keep up with" the power demands of the unit.  But, if it can, then your way of doing it should be fine (and Chase's email seems to suggest that this would work, as well, from what I can tell, though I am admittedly not nearly as well-versed in electrical concepts as I'd like to be).

Steve

THANKS, Chase!

I can't find all the specs, but here's the one I decided on; hopefully it will work well.

It's only 12W, but should be thus able to supply 5 volts at slightly over 2 amps, right?

Anker 321 Power Bank (PowerCore 5K) - Anker US

Steve

Al F --

You have not contacted me, LOL!  🙂

I expect to have carbon-fiber 700/900 lower rods available in 3 to 4 weeks...

Steve

www.stevesdetectorrods.com

www.facebook.com/stevesdetectorrods

email:  steve@stevesdetectorrods.com

longbow -- got it, thanks!

Steve

1 hour ago, longbow62 said:

I have one of the Anker's that's like 10000mAh. It's in a small digital camera pouch attached with velcro under the stand. I used AT-HC from about 9:00 to 4:30 last Sat.. I turned the power pack on about 30 before I got done. 

So, longbow, was the MC "dead" when you turned on the backup power source?  If so, you got about 7 hours...

Steve

4 hours ago, UT Dave said:

The top google hit explains PD pretty succinctly and better than I could:  WHAT THE TECH? USB-C AND POWER DELIVERY EXPLAINED – Goal Zero

However, a quick read of that, and a quick read of page 14 of the Manticore manual, it's clear that the Manticore isn't Power Delivery "smart".  The Manticore does not even have a USB C port.  This is all the manual has to say on the matter:

"You can use your MANTICORE detector whilst plugged into a portable power bank. This means you can continue detecting even if the detector battery is flat. Connect the power bank to your detector using the supplied USB charging cable, and continue detecting."

Therefore, I don't believe there is actually any advantage to using a PD capable power bank on the Manticore.  It reads as though the onboard battery will go flat and they you'll be running off the power bank.  Possibly, what will actually happen is the onboard and power bank batteries will run down simultaneously, but that isn't how the manual reads.

But, anyway, after some quick checking, it looks to me like Power Delivery is a non starter for the Manticore in any case.

The cameras I use mine on, have USB C ports specifically designated for Power Delivery.  

- Dave

Excellent info, Dave.  THANK YOU.

Steve

Dave, good info, thanks.  That's much bigger than I'd hope; what about this one...

Anker 321 Power Bank (PowerCore 5K), 5,200mAh Portable Charger, Compatible with iPhone 13 and 12 Series, Samsung, Google Pixel, LG, and More (amazon.com)

I know it's MUCH lower capacity (1/4), if it works the same way, AND gets me about 4 hours, I'm good.

Another question though, is "what" within the description of the one you linked (the 325 model) shows it to be "power delivery," as opposed to another portable charger?  I thought that's what portable chargers DID -- deliver power.  No?  There's something "special" about a "power delivery" portable charger?

Steve

One other thing, I saw where F350Platinum noted in one post that you may wish to get a charger with "Power Delivery," and I don't know what that means, versus just a regular portable charger.  Anyone familiar with this?  (Calling F350, LOL).

Steve

1 minute ago, UT Dave said:

@BigSkyGuy has a thread on adding a powerbank to his:

- Dave

 

THANKS, Dave!

I did see that, but was hoping to do something smaller/less "obtrusive" if possible.  But I would be curious to know how that pack is working for him, in terms of "being capable of charging the MC battery faster than it wants to drain, or not."

Steve