Tom_in_CA

Great post Cal-Cobra.   And great feedback you got !

Gee, I wonder where you were hunting at ?  😇   And as for the 1896 date :  C'mon dude, that is too new for this site !  Tsk tsk.  😏

thanx for sharing the link.

Good story.  Good pix.  Thanx for bringing us along.

pix of the Dog license ?  What was the city name on it ?

18 hours ago, Beeper Bob said:

Hi Tom, Thanks for the information on the Phoenix buttons. Think I have about four of them. They were found on a private 

ranch by the San Miguel Mission in central Cal. Have to locate them and check out which ones I have. Still have  stuff in boxes I have not yet unpacked after moving out of California.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey there Beeper Bob, I think I know the ranch you're referring to. If we're talking the same location, I've pulled some PBs, a reale, and an early seated from there.  Drop me a PM and let's compare notes.

20 minutes ago, Dirtshark said:

....

Oh, I just remembered the home owner told me that one of the prior owners was a civil war Gettysburg vet .......

 

 Some of the guy who fought in the 1860s in the CW, had previously gone to the CA gold rush.  And then returned back home to their eastern states.   And could conceivably have brought buttons back eastward.  

And while these pre-date the G.R. (1850s), yet :  In CA, when the Gold Rush hit, a lot of coastal folk here in CA (where the missions were, and thus the PB's were), left the coast and went inland to the Sierras.  This is one possible explanation as to why a few PB's have been found in the GR country.  Since it's conceivable that some were still circulating along the coast in the late '40s/early '50s.   And might thus explain why some THEN made their way back east.

But others disagree and think they started from the east coast, and came overland westward.  I don't buy that.   There's just too many of them on the west coast , compared to only scattered presence on the east coast.   So I say they arrived here on the west coast by ship, to the CA ports, and the Columbia River area.    I know of hundreds and hundreds found in CA (heck, 100 from a single field alone !).   Compared to the east coast where they are flukes.

While it's true that the vast majority of the migration was east to west , yet some guys did indeed return back home to the east, when the GR fever petered out.   This explains, for example, why 1850's S mint coins show up in CW sites, for example (albeit rare).

The circulation time for PBs was the 1810s/20s.   But I've found them in sites that were not habitated (by Europeans anyhow) till the 1840s.  Meaning that some were still in use, even to the 1840s.   Considering that there was a shortage of manufactured good on the west coast during Spanish & Mexican times, it makes sense that buttons would have been used and re-used, over and over.  Thus some all the way to GR times, and thus perhaps making their way east.

Interesting !

1 hour ago, Dirtshark said:

Definitely my coolest find since starting detecting. And although I wouldn't sell it, my most valuable find. 

 

Then I'm glad it's in the hands of persons who likewise appreciates the history . 

BTW, while these have been found east of the Mississippi, in various east coast states, yet for some reason NH seems to get the  highest # of incidents.   That adds to the intrigue of their travel path history of distribution.  Ie.:  Is there some particular reason for more there, than a few other east coast states that come to mind ?   Interesting.

Nice job.   Those buttons are a "goal unto themselves" here in the extreme-hunter circles of CA.  We love them. 

Here's an article I wrote on the subject.   You can find your particular button here.

thanx for sharing ! 

welcome to the exclusive & elite club.

Click bait for sure, haha

Geotech is right :  Do not waste your time on ghost-story camp-fire legends.  Just like O.I. :  They sound *ssseeooo* compelling.   Whenever fabulous treasures are discussed, we subconsciously put critical thinking aside. After all, you don't want to get laughed at all the way to the bank, do you ?    But the moment you put it to scrutiny, they fall apart.   Just ask yourself "says who ??" at each junction.  

As for the genre of 1960s/70s treasure magazine lore:  Yes, each edition was packed full of "lost mine" and "stolen stagecoach" loot stories.   So fun !   In fact, a buddy of mine even submitted one of those stories.  Just so he could get the $100 author-article acceptance fee.  It was entirely made up fancy.   But hey, toss in a few faded newspaper clippings, add some real names and dates, add a drawing of a miner posed next to his burro, and ...... by golly ...... it must be true !   We got a good laugh wondering if anyone ever actually went searching for it.

That LC is in nice shape.  And judging from the pile you had to wade through to find it, you earned it !

25 minutes ago, Flavius Titus said:

....

Anyway thanks for the explanation about the laws in the US, I didn't know the part about public lands....

And thank you for the info. on Italy.

As for the "ok to detect" but "can't keep antiquities", then actually, SO TOO do we have a similar situation here in the USA.  But with much less-years-criteria.  For federal land here (hence, doesn't apply to state or county or city lands, unless brought in by specific inclusion) .  Our "ARPA" law would not disallow md'ing, UNLESS you were disturbing or taking antiquities.  And that's generally interpreted to be 50 of 100 yrs old objects.  So:  You can hunt for modern coins in areas with such language.  Eg. : fresh loss jewelry, nuggets in natural form, meteorites, etc...  But just not old coins.   Not unlike what you describe for Italy (the WWII helmet, versus the 2000 yr. old statue)

HOWEVER, as for ARPA (aka "cultural heritage" issues) : As long as you're not snooping around obvious historic sensitive monuments, and not being an utter nuisance , traipsing through an archaeologist convention, then :  Let's be dreadfully honest :  Is anyone out roaming our deserts, forests, and beaches, armed with a calculator, doing the math on the ages of coins that we find ?  OF COURSE NOT.   

On 5/7/2022 at 8:12 AM, Flavius Titus said:

..... everything you find belongs to the State,....

I will not address the part of your post about "Greece", but in-so-far as Italy goes :

I corresponded with a hunter from Italy before.  And he had no problem md'ing.  And no ..... the state didn't come to him and take all his finds, etc.....   

So I was the "devil's advocate" and linked him to "dire sounding laws" (that sound like what you're saying here) in those European compendiums that people compiled  decades ago .  You know, the ones that purport to list the laws of each European country, and often contain "dire sounding" info.   He just chuckled and said that all the dire things you read there only apply to public land. Not private land.  So "farmer Bob" is free to do whatever he wants on his own land.   

And that, besides, when he & his buddies go detecting, that ...... quite frankly ... they are so far out in the boondocks that there's no one one around to care, in the first place.   And so he and many others detect Italy, no problem.

And actually , we too, here in the USA, can also not technically keep things we find on public land either (if we wanted to fret ourselves silly enough).  Because technically, it would fall under laws/rules that forbid "harvest", "remove", "steal", etc....  In other words, in the same way that I am forbidden to go take home the park benches, harvest the sod or sand for commercial sale, etc... SO TOO would the same verbiage also apply to coins and rings in the park. 

Now does anyone really care, when it comes to routine benign parks, forests, beaches ?  OF COURSE NOT !   But if I asked enough lawyers and bureaucrats "can I ?", I'll bet I can find someone to tell me "no".  And then I could publish that finding in a compendium of laws, and announce :  MD'ing isn't allowed.   Which is why you sometimes have to read between the lines on those compendium guide links. 

On 5/7/2022 at 3:29 AM, Badger-NH said:

 

....The whole theft by finding thing is a joke. How did that rule even find it's way into the books?...

 

 

Actually, no,  it's not a joke.  And actually, the evolution of how these laws is easy to see .  They exist in various wording, in all 50 states. 

1)  The evolution :  Born out of wandering cattle laws of the 1800s.  So that if someone's cow gets out of the owner's pasture, it's not the next guy's lucky day to "find" that cow, and simply keep it.   See ?

2) And as for this being "a joke" in modern times, let's do a thought experiment :  Let's say you are downtown with your wife, out for a romantic dinner at a nice restaurant.   As you get back to your car, your wife immediately realizes she doesn't have her 2 carat diamond solitaire wedding ring on !  She remembers that she took it off in the restroom, when she had gone to wash her hands minutes earlier.  So she rushes back to the restroom at the restaurant.   But it's now gone.

Ok, you tell me :  Who does the ring belong to ? Your wife ?  Or the lucky person who had gone into the restroom next, and "found" it ??  What if your wife dropped it on the sidewalk ?  Or the beach ?  And it's found a mere 5 minutes later before you had time to retrace your steps and pick it up ? 

Why would the laws be any different for us on the beach then ?  See how these aren't ridiculous laws ?

1 hour ago, Badger-NH said:

If someone saw their $10,000 ring on a forum, the only thing they can legally do is ask for it back. I'm pretty sure the law can't force the finder to hand it over. There is no way to prove that he has the ring in his possession unless he willingly wants to show it to them.

 

Actually, all 50 states have "lost & found" laws.  That evolved out of wandering cattle laws of the 1800s.  Typically stating something like :  If you find an Item worth $100  (or $250 or whatever) or more, that you are required to take it to the police station.  And if no one claims it after 30 days, then you are entitled to go back and get it.  And there might be storage or processing fees for you to pay if you want to claim the item.  Or the cost of them running a classified ad in the local paper, etc...  

And if they tell you "someone claimed the Rolex watch", they are under no obligation to tell you who claimed it (d/t privacy law concerns).  So ... you almost have to wonder if the Rolex watch might ... uh ... disappear in the bureaucracy of that desk, eh ? 🤔

And these laws are for good purpose.  So that you can't walk away with the mountain bike that you "found" leaning up against the park bench.  Or if a Brinks armored car crashes along the freeway, you are not welcome to "find" wads of cash.  

Thus:  Do they apply to the fumble fingers rings, watches, etc... that we md'rs find ?  (assuming they're over the value of the L&F law criteria) ?  SURE !   That's why all us guys that post show & tell, of our latest rings, are rushing down to police stations everywhere, turning them in.   Ok ?   🙄

5 hours ago, Johnny Phoenix said:

My concern there is an insurance company seeing the item and try to recover their loss...

Yes it's *possible* that someone insured a high-end ring , that included "loss or theft".  It's conceivably possible.   And if the owner lost it, and the insurance paid out, then yes :  This would mean that the insurance company now owns the ring.

But even if all these factors fell into place, it would mean that insurance companies are "trolling" our geeky md'ing forums.  Watching our show & tells.  Waiting to jump and say "That's ours".  

And for some reason, I highly doubt that insurance companies are reading our geeky niche forums, for something that was lost 5 or 10 or 20 yrs. ago.  Just doesn't seem likely.

About the only time I think the L&F laws could come into play, is if someone had micro-laser etched (invisible to the naked eye) some sort of insurer's mark on a diamond.  And then if the md'r went to try to hock the diamond, the *theoretically*, it could be traced ?   Again:  A highly unlikely set of events.

Does ANYONE know of some prior owner or insurer, jumping out of the bushes and saying : "That's mine " ? 

I see show & tell of nice rings (even very-high-end-rings) all the time, on beach hunt md'ing forums.   And don't ever recall any stories of someone claiming "That's mine"   Does anyone here recall such a thing ?

23 minutes ago, ☠ Cipher said:

..... When it happens, it is local social media pages.....

From the title of your post, I wasn't sure what platform you were talking about.

But yes:  I *have* seen some history FB pages (geographic specific locale chit-chat pages), where sometimes md'rs have come onboard, showing off something they found at "such & such stage stop", or whatever.  AND YES ! :  The purist archie types might BRISTLE with disdain.   Yes.  I have seen that reaction.

But as we all can agree, Not on md'ing hobbyist chit-chat pages.

4 hours ago, Badger-NH said:

As long as you don't say where it was found, I wouldn't worry about posting it. ...

Exactly.   The only times I can recall any busy-body griping that an md'r should "donate something", is when it's connected to provenance somewhere.   But to simply show off an old coin or rare buckle or whatever ......... No ......  I do not know of any md'rs who have been bugged to "donate it" to anywhere or anyone.

Half the fun of md'ing is the show & tell aspect.  So by all means :  Show & tell.  No one's gonna hunt you down and say "donate it" to anywhere.

Great pix.  Love the capture of the hunt site.  And great play-by-play.

Cipher, the title of your post is : "Why I Tend Not To Post My Finds "    But what you are talking about, would only happen if you paraded cool historic finds in front of purist archie types.   And only then-so, if you're telling where you found the stuff.  What you are talking about does not happen on md'ing forums like this.

Many of us post our show & tell on md'ing forums ALL THE TIME.   And no one gets in touch with us saying : "You should donate that, blah blah"  

So I think what you meant is, that you don't do your show & tell to purist museum archie type people.  Right ?

And actually, most museums these days do not even say those things.  They are OVERWHELMED with donations, from sincere well-meaning citizens.   And unless you had something phenomenal (George Washington's personal wrist-watch), no one is going to be saying those things.   About the only people that would say those things, are purist archies.  And those types are NOT hanging out on md'ing forums !    🤣

So:  Post away !  Let's see you're bragging rights  🧐

Good show.   Good pix !

Welcome to the exclusive and elite gold coin club.  The "holy grail" hole-in-one of md'ing.    Congratz !

When it alludes to "small plastic articles" (that it aims to pick up), I was initially skeptical.   Thinking that they meant plastic bottles , etc....   But was surprised that the video does indeed show coin/ring sized objects.   Eg.: cigarette butts, etc...

Because with all the decades of beach cleaner machines that are already being made, they are only for bigger items.  Eg.:  McDonalds bags, cans/bottles, etc....   There is a singular particular mechanical beach cleaner machine, with sifter screens that can be adjusted small enough to snare down to coin-sized items . At the operator's settings in the cab.  But to do so means they cover much less space in a day.  Because it slows down the machine much more, puts a big drag on the engine, etc...   So even the rare cities with those machines rarely put it in that setting/mode.

The reason why today's beach cleaner machines don't pick up coin-sized items, is that it would mean that the machine starts picking up pebbles, leaves, seashells, matted clumps of sand, etc......   Stuff they DON'T need to pick up.    Therefore the beach cleaner machines are never a threat to our hobby.

But I see that this one, in your link boasts ability to get down to "micro" trash.   I don't see how any municipality anywhere is ever going to adopt this.   Because there is just so-much-more bigger fish to fry on the beach, than "micro-plastics".   And the time/energy/cost to go after "micro" just doesn't seem to be high on any city's financial radar right now.  

Interesting link though !

Good story.

And I'll bet that the reason they are intertwined like that, is that someone "took them off for safekeeping" .  Like, prior to going in for a swim, or prior to playing volleyball, or whatever.    I've heard this story before, when someone relates how they lost their jewelry, is that they "took it off for safekeeping", and handed it to their friend to hold.  Or hid it in their shoe by their beach blanket, or ... whatever.

Kind of ironic that someone takes off their jewelry for safekeeping, when , in fact, they would have been better off leaving it on !  Doh 🙂