PSPR

Well, not a word from the Minelab folks today.  I think I'll go to bed now and when I wake up tomorrow I'll check the websites again.  I wonder if the decision makers at Minelab know how mentally painful it is to their customers when they announce a new product then not make it available for months.  I think they should have announced a firm date for release back in August when they announced it.  A firm release date such as December 1st, January 1st or even March 1st.  At least then prospective buyers would have a mental time frame they know they would have to wait and plan accordingly.  Maybe the way they do it as its a big secret has some valid reason but it eludes me. [end rant]

2 hours ago, scoopjohnb said:

I think the manual will be available shortly, so we should have something of interest to read.

That is the one thing that is throwing cold water on my release theory.  They haven't put a pdf of the manual up yet.  I assume they can't sell the Manticore if it doesn't have a printed manual.

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

Reminds me of the permanent sign I've seen in some restaurants:  Free Lunch!  Tomorrow.

There is a bar in Boulder Colorado with a big timber over the bar with the words carved in it "Free Beer Tomorrow".  I kept showing up every evening for a week and never got a free beer!  They kept telling me to come back tomorrow.  LOL

The rumors are flying now!!  Two comments on related forums today:

1. Its been reported, that one of the engineers working for Minelab, has stated that the Manticore details have been finalized! Should be released very soon!

2. ...they are going to make an announcement next week.

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

Have you seen phrunts photos of his detecting garb?  Barely above freezing in the mountain morning and he's wearing short sleeve shirt and shorts.  He would be hot right before dawn on the coldest day of the year in Orlando.  And nowhere to (snow) ski????  Might as well send him to the penal colonies of French Guiana.

Some people can't take the heat and some people can't take the cold.  In Florida you will see some of them break out their heavy winter coats if it drops below 60.

OK, take this for what it's worth.  I've read these two items about the Manticore release from posters on other detecting forums.

-------------------

1.  This poster claims to know a Minelab engineer and has been told that Minelab is determined to make it available for Christmas. 

and

2.  Another poster who also claims to know someone at Minelab claims that there were two items (unknown what) that were left to complete before the release could happen.  Those two items have now been completed. 

-----------------

I've also noticed from other commentors that they are also noticing a big drop off of videos regarding the Manticore.  This just reinforces my feeling that the release is imminent.  It could be the end of November or possibly sooner but I will be surprised if it isn't by the first week of December.

As far as shipping delays, I would expect that detectors will be shipped to distribution points before the announcement so orders aren't delayed again waiting for product.

1 hour ago, vive equinox said:

I haven't read the thread yet, but to answer the op's first question, I'll say no, unfortunately manticore won't do that, neither for tone and probably even less for 2d, since I've seen in the French video he put a coin on the edge in the iron zone..

I dig about 2000 pulltabs a year on my beaches, that means there are probably tens of thousands of them, and at all depths.

already, personally when I drink a drink I don't remove the pulltab, so I don't understand those who remove it, the solution would be to prevent the pulltab from being able to be removed from the drink And I hate these people who throw them on the beach, but the Andalusians have the annoying tendency to throw everything on the ground even if there is a trash can less than a meter away...I was even told that some people throw pulltabs in certain places on purpose to piss us off

 

so I dig a lot of pulltabs in different states and which are all over the gold range, sometimes when I'm tired and tired I leave 13 id sounds on the nox but yet I've already dug several 18k rings at 13 in telling me before "oh again a pulltab" and of course no way to differentiate these rings with a pulltab whether in the ground or in the air

of course we can wait for the ocean conditions to sort the pulltabs and the gold but it is not frequent, if I waited for these conditions, I would hardly go out to detect

So I doubt that manticore will help us on this subject

Arrrrrggg.  I think I am going to need a ground penetrating radar type of detector.  Minelab, are you listening?

11 hours ago, phrunt said:

Isn't that the place where all the old people move to? I just get images of wrinkled up old prunes laying around on the beach in their budgie smugglers when I think of Florida. 🤣

I lived in Orlando for about 10 years.  The winters were like being in Heaven but the humidity in the summer made you think you were in HeII.  I liked it though.  No matter where you lived the beach was always close.  After you live there a few years you start to miss snow.  Now I'm in Texas and it snows every now and then.  But the power company gave us rolling blackouts when when it got colder than normal a couple winters ago.

1 hour ago, UtahRich said:

Personally, I am NOT a fan of products being released BEFORE they are ready.  I think it is an extremely poor business decision to do those types of things. Companies shouldn't make promises or set expectations they can't meet, like release dates.

Bad, bad, bad. 

Just the World according to me. 

Rich 

 

I don't want them to release it before it is ready.  I just want them to make it ready this month!!

The Minelab Facebook page has been silent on the release date of the Manticore.  But 6 hours ago posted this to the page:

"A new beast emerges #Manticore coming soon"

Minelab reps did say that the TID was more accurate so we'll just have to see if that combined with a visual of conductivity vs. ferrocity (Thanks GB_Amateur) makes for better target identification.  I did note that the C vs. F chart can show if there is more than one target close together.

No problem, Steveg.  I tend to get confused easily these days.  LOL  Your shortened explanation makes sense but would mean the Target Trace is only telling the user that an object ID is fluttering which could be deduced just from watching the TID.

I did ask Minelab a question a couple weeks ago about their target trace and if the image generated could be sharpened up in a future software release.  This was the reply I received.

"With experience of using the MANTICORE Target Trace feature it is possible to obtain an implied understanding of the general shape of targets below the coil. From time spent with the machine, our field testers have been able to identify if a target is a long object like a nail or a circular coin shaped object from the Target Trace information displayed on screen. However, it would not be a simple or straight forward task to depict the the exact shape of an object below the coil on the screen, such as making a key in the ground to actually look like a key on the screen. This is because all metal detectors detect the induced electromagnetic field of an object rather than the object itself."

18 minutes ago, steveg said:

GB_Amateur -- thanks for the kind words!   Yes, you "woke me up," LOL; I saw the notification that you had mentioned my name it a post, so it did indeed grab my attention!

So, I read through this whole thread.  In summary, I'm not sure I have alot to add; Gordiedan said it well, that the 2D screen is NOT "explicity" going to show "shape."  EXPLICITY, the 2D screen reflects a plot of the "bounce" or "variation" in target ID, on successive sweeps.  But, "implicit" in this, is sometimes, SOMETIMES, some sense of "shape." 

In other words, when we "hunt by ear," we often say things like "that target sounds round."  But what are we really saying, when we say that?  What makes us say "it sounds round?"  

The answer of course, is a "short" signal (fast ramp up, or "preamble," then a short-duration target tone, then fast ramp down, or "postable"), along with a consistent ID, and most importantly -- this same consistent ID and "short" signal being CONSISTENT as we repeatedly sweep the coil over the target, and rotate our bodies around the target.  The same "short" sound, with a consistent ID, from all sweep angles, no "variation" in the sound, suggests "round" to us.  And this is EXACTLY what a "round plot" on a 2D screen (at least, on the FBS version of a 2D screen) shows.  It is NOT a "shaping" plot, explicity.  It is essentially a "scatter plot" of multiple "reads" of the ID of the target, over a period of time.  A more "consistent" ID (very little if any variation), calculated over multiple snapshots taken by the machine, will thus show a small, tight, sort of "round" shape.  On the other hand, variation in the ID, over multiple snapshots, will show a more "scattered-out" pattern on the "scatter plot" -- a more "smeared" plot of the ID's, in other words.  Will that "smear" show the "shape" of the target?  Not really, and CERTAINLY not "explicitly."  It's more correct to think of the "shape" plotted on the 2D screen NOT as the "shape of the target," but more as a "scatter plot of all the different ID values the machine is generating over time, of the target under the coil."  The shape is -- explicitly -- just the shape of the plot of the ID values, and NOT -- explicitly -- the shape of the target...BUT...those two ideas can have some "correlation" with each other.  Again -- it's for the same reason that we can "hear" a "round" target.

Hopefully that makes sense, and is somewhat helpful.  Think "scatter plot" of IDs, not explicitly a "sizing/shaping" technology.   

Steve

Thanks for the explanation, Steve, although most of that was over my aging head!  LOL   Below is a video in a European field with a German guy testing the Manticore with Minelab's chief engineer Lowry walking with him.  There is a lot of information in this video because the camera operator shows the Manticore screen quite well before each item is dug.  If you fast forward to about the 10 minute mark you will see a low conductor that is somewhat oblong on the target trace screen before they dig it.

20 minutes ago, phrunt said:

Highly likely, it would just be a Bluetooth LE receiver, just like at the moment you can buy Bluetooth aptX transmitters and receivers.  

 But I'm wondering if Minelab can introduce a proprietary component into the Bluetooth LE so you have to buy their headphones to work with it.

The solution, of course, would be to plug in a Bluetooth transmitter to the wired headphone jack on the detector and broadcast that to your own brand of headphones.

Wow!!  We must be close!  Although that ad is a bit on the strange side, GB_Amateur.  And I would guess they needed 2 or 3 months lead time to get that ad in the publication so they must have been pretty sure of their release this year back then.

I've been searching and watching the videos on Youtube about the Manticore.  Lately, I've noticed a big drop off of new videos.  There are just a very few from Mexico and Brazil in the last 20 days or so including a couple on the beaches with very little detection action.  None of the recent videos include the usual Minelab suspects demoing or explaining the features of the Manticore.

This leads me to believe that either they are about to release a bunch of new videos or the release date is just a couple weeks if not days away.  I am leaning toward the later.

5 hours ago, phrunt said:

They don't need to make some clip on device, Bluetooth LE will be everywhere soon, there are lots of LE products hitting the market already.

These LE ear buds look nice

https://axsaudio.com/products/axs-audio-professional-earbuds

If they made device to plug your headphones into they wouldn't need to be low latency headphones as you're plugging them in, they could be anything, the little gadget they supply would be the one with the Bluetooth LE, but there is simply no need for this as Bluetooth LE will be everywhere soon, in all sorts of headphones, ear buds and speakers

I hope you are right, phrunt, on it being Bluetooth LE.  I thought the Minelab reps said it was proprietary, though.  Other than their Chief Engineer, some of the Minelab reps don't seem to have all the correct answers.

Wish I did!!  I read on ONE dealer site that they expected the Manticore would be released at the end of November.  Most dealers are suggesting much later. 

I think it is in the best interest of Minelab to release it ASAP because most places in the U.S. and Europe are going to be buried in snow by Christmas and nobody is going to want to buy right away if the ground is snow covered or frozen. 

If they rush it and the software isn't totally as they want it, they can always release an update in a month or so.

I heard last month that the hardware was done and the software was 99% ready with just a few tweaks left to be decided.

I also read that the Equinox was released late in a February.  That makes since as people are tired of winter and dreaming about spring and getting out.  So, they start buying their toys so they are ready for spring.  This thinking argues against an after December release.  If they don't get it out by early December they might as well wait until late February or March so the excitement doesn't go stale over the winter.  Just my 2 cents.

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

You're welcome.  I am trying to be helpful but sometimes I go a bit deep in my 'critiques'.  I don't watch hardly any detecting videos anymore.  It's kind of like the needle in a haystack situation where you have to wade through so many (and they usually last 15-20 minutes each) to find one that is worthwhile (for what I'm interested in).

My dig/no tricks are only for USA nickels, not jewelry.  I only use them when the primary signal strength is 3 bars or less, which depending upon soil moisture is 4-5 inches or less in my sites.  As coins get deeper the dTID spreads out which is which leads to my signal strength limit.

I used to be less selective, particularly when learning a new detector (and from the sidebar you can see I've done a lot of that.  😁)  I can add a bit more in agreement with what strick just posted.  Since I've concentrated on old coin hunting (which is what gets me excited, not jewelry) and gotten more selective in the dTID ranges I dig, my gold jewelry count has pretty much dropped to zero.  I still find silver jewelry (which my wife prefers anyway) because unless small, that shows up 20 and above on the Eqx (approx. zinc pennies and above).

My old-coin selection criteria only apply to sites which were first frequented in the 20th Century.  If 19th Century, small coins (both composition 3 centers, silver 5 centers, gold coins) are possible I dig everything above 6 (so I will notice the nickel 5 cent piece in the 7-9 dTID region).  Indian Head cents can fall in the grey zone at the zinc penny edge and I've probably missed a few of those with my strict cutoff (dig 20, don't dig 19).  If I think IHC's are likely I'll often drop that to dig 19, but even then I'll be missing the 12% nickel (pre-1865) version.

Thanks again, GB.  I don't mind hunting coins.  Silver and gold coins are great.  I don't even mind digging up clad.

Here in Texas there is a lot of history.  But the Texas Historical Commission thinks they own everything not on private property.  They even got a law passed that anything over 100 years old dug up in a park, etc. is theirs.  I'm not sure how they enforce that.  Also, the law here says state parks are off limits but state property that is not a park or historical site is OK.  Rivers and streams seem to be one of the most promising state properties to hunt.   Most cities and towns let you hunt their parks, too, although you run into people now and then who don't like it.  Lake beaches are also open so long as it isn't in a state park.

I think I'm going to have to figure out how to cultivate some good private properties if I am going to metal detect consistently.  I think the trend is to search on private property.  

44 minutes ago, strick said:

What everyone has said so far...the technology is not there yet to discriminate out aluminum tabs. Detecting is a mental game. If you go out detecting and tell yourself I'm going to not dig aluminum today.....just gold and silver..and just to prove it to myself I'm going to dig what I know are pieces of aluminum...so I dig 10 targets that I thought were aluminum before I even dug them.. and of course the odds were in my favor because there is way more aluminum in the environment then there is gold...so you tell yourself... see I'm right I'm not digging that stuff...so you end up dig mostly quarters, dimes and memorial pennies maybe you get lucky once in a while and get a silver ring...and you wonder why you never get any gold...

Two quick examples...

1. On a recent prospecting trip I dug what sounded like a square nail with my 6000. I was dead tired but dug it anyways...turned out to be a nice heart shaped nugget right at 3 grams. 

2. On a recent beach hunt I got a scratchy 8 on the equinox. Thats in the beaver tail/ foil range..I was reluctant but dug it anyways and it turned out to be a nice gold pendant. 

Sometimes your better off digging what you don't know then what you know. 

strick 

I get you point, strick.  While everything you say is true, I think it will depend upon the location.  Some places are not suitable to dig dozens of holes while other places, like the beach, it is just a matter of putting in the effort to scoop the targets.

I hope there will be some other option than the ML headphones.  Otherwise I'll have to rely on the speaker next summer since it is way too hot to wear full headphones in the summer here.

I sent Minelab a suggest to make a belt clip wireless device that we could plug our own low latency headphones into.  I suspect that suggestion will probably go nowhere.

Oops.  Didn't get the link copied to my clipboard properly on the 3rd video.  Here it is.

Thank, GB.  Yeah, I didn't watch close enough to realize he was using a Deus 1 I was just excited to see someone at least claiming to be able to recognize pull tabs.

Thanks for the additional information on the Manticore, that's the sort of stuff I'm looking for.  Minelab seems to release some info then wait a month then release some more then wait a month.......  I'm hoping by the end of November they have a release date for us but I may be dreaming.

I looked around a little more this evening and found three other videos that use the Nox and offer up some possible methods to identify pull tabs, caps and trash.  These guys don't seem to be experts but they seem to have a couple good ideas they've probably gotten from others that might help without giving up on the gold.  Maybe these are similar to the methods you are already using, GB. 

When I do get a Manticore shipped to me I'll be experimenting with these ideas as I learn the Manticore.  Maybe the target trace will provide more info than I'm currently expecting with that regard.  Here are the videos.  The third video doesn't get to the ID part until about 6:07.

Good points longbow and GaryC.  I never thought about pull tabs being so light that they don't sink very fast.  I've always thought that the low mass of aluminum objects would provide some way to identify them with a detector, EM field.  I guess in reality it's not so easy.

Wow!  GB_Amateur I hope I didn't post a video in the Minelab section I shouldn't have.  I didn't mean to upset you or anyone else.  I just thought there was some info on IDing aluminum trash that I hadn't seen before in the video.  

Of course, we don't have a lot of info on how the Manticore is going to perform or even its overall capabilities.  All we've seen are a few brief hunts in fields with pretty much only iron trash.  There have been no videos, to my knowledge, of hunts in heavy pull tab trash areas or even on the beach.

I've got my order in for the Manticore but I'm feeling a dearth of information/testing of the machine coming out of Minelab.  I guess I'm feeling we are not being given information many of us need to make an informed decision and I'm wondering why.  I wish they would put a couple Manticores in dealers hands for testing but I guess that isn't how a new model release works.