Steve Herschbach

25 minutes ago, EL NINO77 said:

you can't blame Minelab for the fact that on its 35th anniversary

Nobody is blaming them for an anniversary since nobody including Minelab cares. It’s just a marketing tool and not why they are blowing the Manticore out the door at deep discount. I’ve been too deeply involved in how the corporate world works to be anything but cynical about stuff like this. They are not anyone’s friend and not doing anyone any favors. It’s all pure cold hard business calculations at work.

1 hour ago, abenson said:

To me Fisher looks like they are clearing out all their old stock on eBay, taking any reasonable offer made. That means one of two things, there are getting out of the consumer metal detector business or they have a whole new lineup of new models coming.

I'd love to see the whole new lineup. But it smacks of liquidation sales in that they are burning bridges with dealers. That and seems like most of marketing was fired or quit. None of that is laying groundwork for a big release, but I could be wrong and hope I am.

Assuming it’s an overstock you get that inventory down and get very cautious bringing in more. In my business inventory control was every bit as important as sales. That’s cash on the shelf and you can go broke sitting on dead money. Reality bites in business and if the Manticore is not selling as hoped it may need a price reduction. More likely they flush the overstock and things go back to normal, albeit with lower sales. No gravy train last forever and all businesses have ups and downs. If the down gets severe enough you lay people off and/or close facilities. I think hard times and hard choices are coming in metal detector land. Tesoro is gone, White’s is gone, First Texas likely to be the next exiting the business.

I doubt it has anything to do with the Storm. I worked sales all my life and you only do something like this when you find your inventory is way out of whack. Minelab USA must have vastly overestimated demand for the detector and got caught with a warehouse full. So more likely that Deus 2 and Legend had an impact than worrying about a detector that is vapor so far. Companies don’t give profits away for no reason and clearing an overstock fast is the only reason that makes business sense here. The fact it puts a hurt on the competition is likely just a happy side effect. That’s why you only see it happening here in the states as inventories elsewhere are probably more in line with what they should be.

I don't disagree. We all are used to things going on sale, but what is different here is the magnitude of the sale on a relatively new product. A full 30% discount. $100 or $200 off would be more the norm and a couple hundred bucks usually enough to goose sales. A discount of this magnitude does go overboard as $500 is not a trivial sum to anyone, and so the risk as you are pointing out that they are going to really piss some people off.

Minelab in particular has a large number of users who like the products but really dislike the company for various reasons. If they did not maintain the technogical edge they have a lot of people would jump ship. Unfortunately metal detector users have a long history of getting mad about things, but in the end performance wins out most of the time. People complain but not enough will actually switch brands that it matters. Unless the powers that be see it hit the financial bottom line complaints will fall on deaf ears.

Minelab is not alone in this at this time. First Texas (Fisher, Bounty Hunter, Teknetics) is selling factory direct on eBay at prices that actually undercut what dealers pay for the detectors. Not only are they giving dealers the finger, but anyone that bought one in the last year is now seeing people getting them for half what was paid just a short time ago. A guy just got a F75LE with two coils for $355. The value of used First Texas product is plummeting fast.

So yours is a 21 Simon? Mine is not the latest from the factory, more like a last fall model.

Under General Settings and the Software Version you will also see the Hardware Version listed. Mine is Hardware Version 21 - anyone see anything different?

I'm not saying a higher number is better as I don't know what this really means. Maybe different countries have different hardware versions for some reason? But if we all have 21 then it's moot. I thought it was interesting though as usually something like hardware changes, more common than people think, are kept secret. Otherwise people tend to go nuts over it.

The Gold Bug 2 for example has had many hardware changes from early days until now due to changing parts availability.

Just now, MFF18B said:

Steve,

  This is what I came up with on my air tests for the gold coins that I have in my collection.  Very close to Andy's results.  Again, this was an air test but still interesting.  

Air tests are a must for establishing baseline results. In ground it can be all over the map depending on mineralization and adjacent targets. Thanks for adding to the results!

15 hours ago, kac said:

The likely hood of a particular flip tab in an area having exactly the same response and id's as a ring is pretty remote.

I find it odd someone would keep digging the exact target type over and over again but in kindergarten we had craft time where we would doodle out something in crayon and use paste to make something of it and there was always one of those kids in the back eating the supplies.

Because the odds might be low, they are not zero. So you guys hit a place repeatedly, notching out your low odds targets. Eventually the target id numbers you are digging will find nothing. It’s not a matter of if, but when. At that point you either abandon the location, or go dig the numbers you passed up before. If you don’t, somebody else will. As good finds deplete people drift more and more to digging everything, because eliminating any trash item also can eliminate good items. Thats why looking for reasons not to dig is in the long run a fruitless endeavor. It only works when cherry picking works, and eventually cherry picking will play out at any location. Nugget hunters figured this out a long time ago.

Combining Tom and Andy's results for maximum safety plus a few key references:

$1 Type-2 & 3 = 20 - 21
$1 Type-1 = 23 - 24
U.S. Nickel = 25 - 27
$2.50 Quarter Eagle = 37 - 38
$5.00 Half Eagle = 49 - 53
Zinc Penny = 60 - 61
$10.00 Eagle = 65 - 66
$20.00 Double Eagle = 76 - 78
Clad Dime = 77 - 78

Minelab Manticore U.S. Gold Coin Chart

Thnaks Andy. I did find a 2022 post by PSPR that relayed information imparted originally by Tom Dankowski. I have copied it here. A general match up but some difference in the $5 coin. Maybe a change in later firmware?

Here are a few from NASA-Tom:

A new shiny Nickel ID's as '27'..... and will very clearly lock on to 27. A new clad Quarter ID's as '88'...... and does not jump around...... unless it is steeply tilted. A new clad dime ID's as '78'. A silver dime ID's as '80'..... unless it is heavily worn down. These are just a few examples. Magnetite/lateritic iron-oxide dirt will cause ID's to 'up-average'..... to a certain point (depth)...... then at the deeper depths....... ID's will then begin to drop.

Federally minted U.S. Gold Coin ID on Manticore =

$1 Type-1 = 23
$1 Type-2 & 3 = 20
$2.50 Quarter Eagle = 37 & 38
$5.00 Half Eagle = 49-53
$10.00 Eagle = 65
$20.00 Double Eagle = 76, 77, 78

1-Oz .9999 Canadian Mapleleaf = 95

U.S. 3-Cent Nickel = 12-16

13 minutes ago, abenson said:

I've personally found more good quality finds over the last 10 years of my 40+ years of metal detecting, than those earlier years. Finds 40 years ago were plentiful, but the quality of the finds wasn't there. Technology has played a big part in bringing those good targets to light.

I suspect that not only have you gotten technically more proficient at metal detecting, but that your research methods narrowed down the areas where those quality finds were to be made and you focused on hitting them. With better machines, yes, but I'm thinking the key to those quality finds is really between your ears. 

3 hours ago, Digalicious said:

I though I've read a couple of times on DP that gold fields are drying up or dead. If so, why would Nokta, Garrett, and an ex Minelab engineer create new PI gold detectors?

Is there still a large market for dreamers that don't know the gold fields are dried up? Or???

It’s not that hard to find gold nuggets if all a person wants to do is be a hobbyist and find a few. It’s the making solid money detecting gold nuggets that has gotten extremely difficult. In a way it’s too little too late, but drying up does not mean dry, just getting there. Think silver coins. Not gone, but they sure are rarer finds than 40 years ago, even though machines are far better now. But on the other hand high PI prices have been a barrier to ownership for many; a good low price PI will find buyers, as Alfoforce has already proved. Also, rising gold prices is boosting interest in chasing even the crumbs that are left. Occasional large nugget finds keep the hope alive. Long story short there is still a market for a gold nugget PI, but as Minelab knows very well the heyday is long over. It’s just competition fighting over ever smaller pieces of pie 🙂 

This is a real problem overall for all detector companies now. There is not one area of detecting that is not facing declining returns. People still beach hunt, still hunt for silver coins, still hunt for relics, still chase gold nuggets. Newbies are still enticed into the fold. But I doubt any of us here who have been at this long think things are as good as they used to be. In a way we are victims of our own success. Long story short Nokta has indeed missed the big bus with this detector that should have come years ago and now they will be fighting for a seat already taken by others. As a nugget hunter I know there is nothing they can do that will really matter except make a machine that clearly blows away a GPZ 7000 and I am not holding my breath for that. In the area of affordable PI AlgoForce is already taking sales from Nokta in Australia, and it’s only the delay in reaching the U.S. that’s giving Nokta any breathing room here. Yes, they are way too late compared to what they might have achieved just three years ago prior to the GPX 6000 release.

What the market clearly lacks at this time, the machine that I personally would buy, is one that is a very good nugget detector but that also is a fully submersible water machine. Minelab only offers the SDC 2300 but it’s a joke for water detecting since it floats like a cork. Axiom, AlgoForce… not waterproof. Impulse AQ Gold dead before arrival. What I was hoping for from Nokta was a machine that would extend my nugget detecting by also being an excellent beach detector. I would sell all my other PI detectors to own that machine. I think others would also. If there is not a model that captures that desire, then not only will Nokta be late to the party, but they will have lost my interest in this detector. It’s the one thing really left to do, make a good alternative to the 7 lb Garrett ATX. Not a very high bar, but are they even going to try? The initial ad blurb is not promising.

I need something better than this…..

Nokta Gold Pie

Generated with AI ∙ April 23, 2024

Nokta Relic Pie

Generated with AI ∙ April 23, 2024

56 minutes ago, Bill (S. CA) said:

Well put for about the 1000th time, Steve.  I hope maybe your words stick but I doubt if that will happen.  Every detector used by anyone on these forums has quirks that some don't like.  There are no exceptions.  Like you, I am weary of this constant "well you may like yours but it isn't for me" stuff.  Honestly, I could care less what anyone on this forum thinks of the detector I like; if I was soliciting opinions I would ask for them.  This is why I post for a while and then vanish.  When I found forums years ago it was all about hunting and the stuff you found.  Now it seems that no matter how well-intentioned a post is, someone grabs onto a couple of words within that post and comes out swinging like it is their obligation to set the record straight.  Like you said, if that's your deal then go to the comparisons forum and have a field day. But stay the heck out of brand forums that are a place for folks to talk about their detectors of choice.

I've been on the shelf for three months after a partial knee replacement and am going to hunt for the first time since late January.  I'm going to use a Garrett Apex because I like it.  If I find a bunch of crap and a couple of zincs I will still have fun.  That's why I got into this hobby in 1972.

Bill

It works both ways. On a brands only forum one can easily sing the praises of a detector without having to say another detector is bad by comparison. I also did a lot of detector reviews, and I rarely did them by comparing to some other machine. I just talked about what I liked about a particular detector and offered tips for how to get the best out of it. I’d mention a thing or two I did not like also - no machine is perfect. But it never required comparing to some other detector. That’s the best way to go on a brand forum as using the place to knock some other brand ends up chumming for pushback.

I have used the Tenergy with no problems. Here is an older thread on the subject. Since I mainly nugget hunt my pinpointers really don't get enough use to justify using rechargeables and I've reverted to using regular 9Vs.

18 hours ago, IBMe said:

Electronics has gone about as far as it can.

Signal analysis used to some extent.

Sound wave analysis, used in medical and industry, ignored.

Might be worth at least a little look.

 

I could be all wrong, but it’s used to tell the life of a bearing. I think it has strong possibilities.

I find the idea nobody has thought of this or looked at it as a possibility - ignored it - to be rather amusing. Of course it has been looked at and found wanting. Hook a signal analyzer up to any audio output of any metal detector and you will find out why. Test real world targets - lab demonstrations are fine and dandy but not how it works in the real world.

Hunting by ear can reveal differences people go by, but anyone that has dug enough targets knows bad sounding signals can be great finds, and great sounding targets can be junk. Part of this game is effiecient target recovery and over analyzing signals is generally counterproductive.

From https://cornellpubs.com/manufacturer/hubley-toy/

"Hubley — Founded by John Hubley in about 1894 in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, the Hubley Manufacturing Company made cast iron toys. Its earliest products were trains and trolleys powered by live steam, electricity, or spring mechanisms. Hubley produced stoves and still banks beginning in 1909. It later added horse-drawn fire and circus wagons, cap pistols, trucks, cars, motorcycles, and, in the 1920s, dollhouse kitchen appliances. By 1940 Hubley had become the world’s largest manufacturer of cast-iron toys. Increasing freight charges and foreign competition made the company switch to die-cast toys of a zinc alloy. Hubley was acquired by Gabriel Industries in 1965 and now produces die-cast zinc and plastic toys as well as hobby kits."

Photo of a similar model for sale here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/256318411250

Just a reminder - this is the Garrett Forum for people who like and appreciate their Garrett detectors, where they can do so without people telling them that Brand X is better. You want to make brand to brand comparisons, take it to the Comparisons Forum.

I also do not find the Apex to be a powerhouse in my soil and have said so, but I don’t make it my mission to make sure I repeat that on every thread on the Garrett Forum to people who are happy with theirs.

I truly feel sorry for people who own and enjoy a Garrett Ace 150 or a Bounty Hunter. They go out and have fun and find things. Then they find a forum or get on Facebook, and get told what they own is not “the best” by all the people who are sure they own “the best.” There is a general elitist attitude on these forums that can’t tolerate anyone saying anything good about anything other than a dozen detector models. Own anything else and you will rapidly be made into a second class citizen here… and leave.

Great, maybe your car is better than my car, but truth is I like my car and I don’t want your car. Maybe people just like and want to support Garrett products regardless of whether somebody else thinks they should not.

Back in the day you had a discrimination knob. Everything below the knobs setting was rejected, everything above accepted. People often tuned it up to right below copper penny (no zinc in those days) to get the silver coins, but nickels were also blocked out. Or you could set it to get nickels but then dug lots of pull tabs. The first advance in knob based discrimination was the ability to "notch" the nickel range back in. This often took the form of a second knob and a moveable "window" of acceptance. Or it could be reversed to knock out a single items selectively - "notch it out." Notch accept or notch reject.

When digital came along it gave us the ability to create multiple notch scenarios.

click or double click image for large readable version

You know Simon that using a PI to ignore pellets is no different than notching the low end pellet responses out with a VLF? Either way you miss gold and either way you don’t dig pellets. The first few non-ferrous numbers on the VLF scale are basically reacting according to size, the bigger the gold bit, the higher the number.

58 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

I am just scratching the surface as far as learning the Manticore, especially as far as how to work with the upper and lower ferrous limits and what the 2D screen is capable of. Since January 2024, I am at 34 US silver coins, 8 silver rings and 3 gold rings. All were found in public parks that I thought were on the verge of being hunted out by me and others using the Equinox 600/800 and were at least 7” deep in tough iron mineralized dirt.

Thanks Jeff. To be honest I’ve been needing some inspiration and motivation, and your post helps provide just that! 

This used to be my forums links list:

AK Gold Forum
Aussie Gold Detecting
AZ Gold Prospectors
AZO
Carl's
DFXonly
Find's Forums
Finders
Geotech
Gold & Coin
Gold Detecting
GPAA Forum
Kinzli
Nevada Nugget Hunters
New 49'ers
NuggetShooter's
NV Nugget
Rob's
TDI Tech
THunting
Treasure Depot
TreasureNet
UK
White's Forum
White's TDI

Most of them are gone now, and out of the U.S. based forums with a nugget detecting community I think it is pretty much down to Rob and I now. Facebook and YouTube have really taken a toll.

20 minutes ago, glacialgold said:

Hmmm, interesting!

What do you more knowledgeable folks in the PI realm think the differences between the gold prospecting and relic versions could be?

I don't see why anyone would think prospectors don't need ferrous disc.

A gold PI is typically going to be designed to hit the tiniest bits possible and that can also mean tiny ferrous bits. A relic PI might be more tuned to hit bullet size targets at max depth while being less sensitive to every tiny bit of ferrous trash. In theory though you can do both in one detector so interesting to see why they feel the need for two models.

It could be nothing more than what coil the machine comes with.

We have no idea what the detector really looks like but let's go with the fuzzy profile as being real. Standard configuration with collapsing three piece rod, fairly large underarm battery. Big question - it it submersible? Beach hunters will be disappointed once again if the answer is no.

Finally! First we had Algoforce but now the real battle starts in pulse induction, with Nokta likely to set new price/performance ratios i.e. bang for the buck.

"Join our naming competition and get a chance to win one of our future Pulse Induction machines!

One designed for gold prospecting and another one for relic hunting!

These detectors will redefine affordability and performance for you to break free from the grip of overpriced alternatives!"

ENTER CONTEST Deadline April 30th