mh9162013

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In tot lots, they seem to be the same to me in terms of being able to find the coins. The 540 is more pleasant to use though, in that it's lighter (I think...feels that way, at least) and a lot less noisy or chattery. In my soil (which ground balances anywhere from the upper 70s into the low 90s), they both seem to perform about the same, although the AT Max might have a slight edge. After doing some direct comparisons b/w the two in my yard, it seems like that at least 95% of the time, whatever one machine found, the other machine would have found it too. I did the comparisons with the 540 in custom mode where only targets hitting 20 or above would come through. With the AT Max, I was usually in custom mode where only targets hitting 70 or above would come through. I was often hunting with the AT Max at 3-5 sensitivity, but could go to 8 if I needed a better VDI read on a deeper target. One thing I really like about the AT Max over the 540 is the all metal mode. Because of my highly mineralized clay layer about 2-6 inches down in my soil, I know the 540 has a tendency to increase the VDI numbers of target sometimes. And in some cases, I think my 540 has flat out falsed, saying there was a quarter 10+ inches down when all that was there was clay. This was especially evident when the soil was wet. Given the 540's tendencies, I tend to ignore its iffy signals that are 10+ inches down, assuming it's either falsing on the clay or its reading foil or iron as a higher conducting target. But with the AT Max, I have the ability to check an iffy signal and see what happens when I try to detect it in all metal mode. During one of my digs today, I got an iffy signal with the AT Max saying I had a dime or quarter target about 8-10 inches down. The Max's VDIs were all over the place, but I was getting a consistent high tone in at least 1 direction. Then in all metal mode, it was clear I was getting a signal, and while jumpy, the VDIs would sometimes hit 90. With my 540, even on max sensitivity, it was an iffy signal, hitting in the mid 20s and sometimes upper 20s...and sometimes nothing at all. In the past, I would have ignored this signal thinking it was iron or foil that was deep and my 540's inability to ground balance was making it seem like a better target than it really was. I dug it, and it ended up being 2 clad quarters located just inside the layer of clay that lies beneath the upper layer of milder brown/black soil in my yard. Anyways, this is only a half-dozen hours of comparison b/w the 540 and my AT Max, but I think the AT Max is going to stay and the 540 is going to go. Another factor in this decision is that I found out my AT Max is a much older machine than I thought and that its 2 missing LCD segments on the screen can't be fixed under warranty. Finally, there's the fact that I still have the Vanquish 340. Thanks to many of you who humored me and provided advice and feedback on my observations and questions with the AT Max over the past week or so. Oh, and I found my first IHP today too, thanks to the AT Max. It was at least 8 inches down and around the clay layer . My 540 was able to pick it up from the surface, so I probably would have found it with my 540...probably.

Most people don't have the time or money to buy a machine, try it for 50+ hours, then make a decision whether to keep it or not. And if they need to sell it, they don't want to spend the time, effort and money of listing it in eBay, Craiglist, etc. Then there's always that small risk of having that "buyer from hell." And from I've seen about the Apex's resell value, it's doesn't have the re-salability that the AT Pro or Max seem to have. So many people have no choice but to rely on other people to get an idea of how well a machine does or doesn't work. I agree, any online opinion must be taken with a few shakes of the salt shaker. But when multiple people are criticizing a machine in a similar manner, there's probably a pattern of some sort going on. You can use me as an example of this. I bought an AT Max more than 2 weeks ago, but I only have have a few hours on it and I'm still trying to decide whether to keep it or not (I'm leaning towards yes). When I do make my decision (hopefully later today, when I should have a few hours to play with it some more), I then need to spend the time to prepare and list either the AT Max of my Vanquish 540 for sale. That's gonna take some time and effort I'm not looking forward to. And then it'll probably be a few weeks until I finally have the money in hand. I'm fortunate enough to be ok with having $250-$400 "floating" right now, but I imagine a lot of other people don't have that luxury.

I think many people were expecting that, yes, as unfair as that is. However, I think many people were also expecting it to be a Vanquish killer too, especially at its price, but from what I've seen and read, it's not. A lot of people knock the Apex in terms of performance. But I think that's only half of the issue. The other half is its price. If it's street price was $100 less (give or take), I think that would have made a massive difference in the criticism it received. On the other hand, I do understand why it's priced the way it is, given how it has features that go above and beyond the Vanquish 540. But I think the Apex is a great example of how perception > reality. And I'm of the belief if that the Apex were cheaper, yes, Garrett would have had a drop in revenue, but I think the Apex would have been viewed far more positively and perhaps that would have been worth the lower income/unit sold.

I have fairly mineralized soil (usually in the mid 80s when ground balancing on an AT Max, but sometimes in the low 90s), but not the hottest stuff possible, so using a Vanquish works in my soil, although I can begin to see its limitations. However when using the 540 (or 340) in tot lots with sand, ground up tires or wood chips, the Vanquish works so well, I'm like Babe Ruth calling my shots (coins). Heck, it's almost like having X-ray vision. But functionally, this doesn't matter, because I dig everything in tot lots. I can afford to do this due to how easy it is to dig and the low amount of trash compared to coins.

Yeah, not having the ground balancing is a problem in my moderate-high mineralized soil. I'm curious as to MInelab's decision not to have it in the 540 (or any of the Vanquishes). I understand that if you give the 540 too many features, it'll became the 600. But I wonder if the ground balance feature made such a big difference, that Minelab felt the 540 become too close in performance to the 600 for too many users. Regardless, trying to figure out what's really going on with our machines matters to me. Like you, I appreciate the automation, but I want to know what's going on to make a more informed decision when comparing different detectors. P.S. it's great to have you back and I have appreciated your recent posts and contributions.

This an awesome thread and such a fascinating read...

Did a little testing with my AT Max in the front yard this morning. I noticed a few things. One, the chatter was very fickle. Sometimes, it was horrendous (although just fine if sensitivity was at a 5 out of 8). But after ground balancing (usually in the 80s), it would sometimes go away. Or if I moved to another part of the yard, it got a lot better, even if directly under or 30-45 degree below-off-center of the power lines. Also changing channels sometimes seemed to make a difference and other times did not. Regardless, I was able to hunt at b/w a 5 or 8 (yes, 8!) sensitivity without serious issue. Also, the chatter/EMI issues usually got worse after I would turn off the machine, then turn it back on. As far as I know, the AT Max doesn't do any noise canceling on start up but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm beginning to think that the the machine's settings when last turned off has an effect on how chatty it is when you turn it on next. So like Kac alluded to, different times of day seem to make a big difference in EMI issues. Two, it looks like there are some issues with a few LCD segments on my screen. I've contacted Garrett to see what can be done about it. So far, it looks like I'm going to keep this machine. Still need to do some more testing/hunting, though. I'm hoping to do it later this week...

I will, thanks for the suggestion.

AT Pro, AT Max or Apex: you can have only one machine. Which do you choose and why?

Would that flutter be the AT Max getting "hit" with an EMI burst or something?

It's funny you bring that up, b/c I just watched a Hoover Boys video where they compare all 3 AT machines and when ground balancing the AT Max (at around a 90-95), it makes the same noise mine does. However, my soil is around 70-85, but still fairly mineralized. So now I'm not worried. EDIT: This is the video phrunt mentioned. At the 3:27 mark you can hear the AT Max getting ground balanced...sounds just like mine in my soil.

I've watched a bunch of Youtube personalities who usually or occasionally operate the AT Max. Many of them can't reliably operate their machines at the 8 sensitivity setting (full sensitivity). Case in point: At the 4:01 point she mentions how she normally runs the AT Max at 6 (2 off the top). I think the only time I could use an AT Max on full sensitivity is in the middle of the woods, dozens of miles away from the nearest cell phone tower. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I'd rather have an "ultra mode" that I can only use 1% of the time than not have that "ultra mode" at all.

Ahh, ok. Good to know, thanks!

Interesting. Looks like they have a version for the AT Max/Pro, too. The description for the AT version: "This coil provides a 25% increase in ground coverage as compared to an 8.5” x 11” DD coil. This makes the Reaper perfect for: working large fields, searching for caches, and swinging above stubble and other field obstructions that often hinder detection depth. It also offers a significant increase in detection depth on medium to large-sized targets, while still maintaining excellent detection on small targets. This big coil is rugged and fully submersible. Weighing in at 21.6 ounces, its 14-inch size is still light enough to swing all day." Reading b/w the [marketing] lines, it sounds like it won't help get much more depth for coin sized objects.

Will do. I already tried it at a local tot lot and it was much better. Slightly usable at even a 7 (out of eight) on the sensitivity setting. Definitely usable at 5. I need to do more testing, but have been busy lately (and it's been a lot hotter outside). I need to complete testing to decide if I'm going to sell the AT Max or my Vanquish 540. My current assessment is that it's not an overall better or worse machine than my 540 in terms of finding coins in my yard or at a local tot lot. Rather, it's just different. I think of my AT Max as a sail boat while my 540 is pleasure cruiser. They should still get you to where you need to go on the water, but one requires more effort and practice from the user to get there. Right now, the idea of learning how to sail is appealing. I just need to confirm my area where I like to hunt has enough "wind" to make sailing possible.

From what I've seen on Youtube, my AT Max is about as chatty as many other machines...I don't think there's anything "wrong" with it. That being said, I can see Garrett tuning down the gain/power somewhat if I were to send it in. Not sure if I'm going to do that, but it's something to consider. It's fairly new and should still be under warranty (assuming the warranty is transferrable as I bought this used).

I had the same thought when I saw this product. Honestly, RnB seems to produce products in search of problems that don't really exist. Ok, that's not technically true, but I agree with your sentiment that these RnB battery packs aren't quite as "useful" as they want you to think. However, there could still be reasonable reasons to buy this particular pack: 1. You detect a lot in 1 session. I've never used my 540 for longer than 2-3 hours in a single session, but if you were to detect 8+ hours in a single session with wireless headphones and/or the speaker on high, I can see how using high quality NiMH cells would barely get you through your day. And yes, even though swapping out AAs in the middle of a 8+ hour hunt isn't a big deal, I can see someone willing to buy this RnB pack to avoid that. I certainly understand the appeal when detecting in very muddy, rainy or dusty conditions where there's a rain cover to remove for a battery change. 2. It's easier for you to charge things with USB-style chargers. Maybe you have these cords already in your office/car/home for your phone, tablet, camera, headphones and other numerous electronics. Instead of having to carry around a AA charger for AA NiMH cells you rarely use, you just rely on the power brick and wall warts you already have for your USB charging cords. 3. You like the idea of not having to worry about your detector's batteries for a very long time. Maybe you detect every few weeks for just an hour or two and you do this for 3-4 months in the late summer into late fall. Depending on how you use your machine, perhaps 1 full charge of this RnB pack will get you through your entire metal detecting season? 4. You're getting annoyed with the AA cells losing their connection with the Vanquish when you accidentally bump it or it falls onto its side in the grass when you start digging a target. This happens to me on occasion and I think it's b/c the battery contacts inside the battery tray aren't that well designed. Honestly, I think the drawbacks to this pack outweigh the benefits, but that's just me. If RnB can sell them, good for them.

I did some searching online for the Mars Tiger coil and many sellers list the AT Max as a supported detector. But based on the link you just sent and what I found on Mars' website, I'm guessing those distributors are wrong. Or maybe they're not wrong, in that the coil will work with the AT Max. However, it won't work very well and maybe it barely outperforms the stock coil.

Thanks for the additional insight, phrunt! If the Mars Tiger is so good, why don't we hear more about it? Seems like when it comes to Garrett AT series aftermarket coils, NEL gets all the love. EDIT: Hmmm, maybe it's because it's not designed for the AT Max? According to Mars' website, the AT Max isn't listed as a compatible detector.

Something to consider, thanks!

That's the impression I'm getting concerning that coil. People would rather use the NEL Storm instead...

That's good to know. Out of curiosity, how do you know that? Did you do some air or real world tests to compare the machines/coils? Based on my research, the NEL Big gives the AT Pro about an extra 25%-33% increase in depth on coin targets during air testing when compared to the stock coil. However, in real world conditions, I'm getting the impression the depth increase is closer to 5%-15%. However, the ability of the AT Pro to accurately ID the target goes up. That alone is a good reason to get the bigger coil as I know one weakness of the AT Max or Pro against an MIQ machine is that it may be able to detect the a target to depths that are as good as an Equinox or Vanquish, but the VDI will indicate it's iron or an iffy signal that no one would usually dig. However, the MIQ machine is more likely to give it a proper solid tone and/or be more accurate with its ID.

In my yard, I seem to have a lot of EMI. When using my 540, I usually have my sensitivity no higher than 8. With my AT Max, I keep it around a 2 or 3, but no higher than 4. However, at a local park, I can run my AT Max at 5 or 6 sensitivity, no problem. Even 7 is usable, although not the most enjoyable or easy to use. As for red clay, no, not in my yard. But I do have some reddish-brown-yellow clay that's about 1-4 inches below some relatively mild dark brown/black soil. I've attached a pic of what my soil (in terms of color) and its profile roughly looks like. This isn't from my yard (it's from a nearby town where I sometimes hunt), but gives you an idea of the kind of clay I have and the dark brown dirt that's above it. Based on how many users on Youtube use their AT Maxes, it seems like my level of chattiness is normal. The only exception seems to be the ground balancing. Last time I was at the park, I forgot to ground balance it before hunting, but that's b/c I was hunting a sand-filled tot lot and it worked just fine. But I'll need to try ground balancing somewhere besides my home to determine if its' my machine or maybe my EMI.

That does help, but it's such a neurotic machine, I still get an occasional blip or chirp even when I set the iron discrim all the way up to 44. Luckily, it's not bad and doesn't hinder my coin/silver hunting attempts at all. It's just not as quiet as my 540, but I can live with that.