UT Dave

For most of the sites I hunt, the same could be said for the Manticore. - Dave

So, I was about to send this to @abenson in private. But we are having a healthy discussion on Manticore settings here so decided to post it. Short school hunt this afternoon. Running ATHC, 19 Sens, Recovery 6. I got a faint but pretty tight and repeatable signal in the 76-81 range. To @GB_Amateur point immediately above, there was no target trace for it, just a faint audio and the TID's. Not common. More common is no TID's but audio and a target trace. Anyway... Thought, good opportunity to play with settings on this target. Tried ATLC and ATHC, running sense and recovery up and down until the signal got noticeably worse going either direction with each setting in each mode. Ended up, the best signal was about where I had started. ATHC, with sensitivity basically a tie between 19 and 20, and recovery basically a tie between 5 and 6. Dug it. Nothing to get excited about. A '64 Lincoln. But, at an honest 8". I pulled it from the bottom of the hole, not out of the pile. Could just have just as easily been a '64 Rosie, really. So, here is the salient point. In ATLC, with a sensitivity of 22 or 23 and a recovery of 4, I would NOT have stopped for this signal. And that, has been kind of my go to default settings for turf hunting with the Manticore and I "thought" it was doing pretty darn good! Dirt specific, all that. And I'm not trying to claim this is some sort of revelation or anything. Just sharing that, settings really do matter, they really are site specific, and it appears that what seemed intuitive on the 800 is not necessarily the right way to tune on the Manticore at least in hot soil. - Dave

I think this may well be the most helpful Manticore video I have watched to date. Thanks @abenson! I know how much work it is not only to do the testing, the back and forth with the updates, the coils, all of that - but also the video production. The effort is appreciated and I think will be helpful to many. That up averaging with the M8 IS troubling... - Dave

After talking to Andrew about it, I went out to my test garden. And found that on the old version, not the update, in ATHC, I can make a 7" silver dime have more scattered ID and more "smeary" audio by just increasing the sensitivity from 18 to 25. The Manticore is still "stable" at 25 in my backyard, without chatter, but the ID's get quite noticeably more jumpy and the audio suffers accordingly with the increased sensitivity. At 18 and a controlled short sweep the numbers are within 5 digits between 75-80 repeatedly. At 25, the low numbers go slightly lower but it's the high numbers which go kind of bonkers with 90's coming up about every other sweep and high 80's popping up a lot. So, more like 20 numbers between 74-94, with even a 98 or two popping up. I believe @phrunt has been saying for some time that decreased sensitivity gives him more stable ID's with no apparent loss of depth, before the update. That dime, my backyard dirt, recovery speed of 6 or 7 is best, too. Coming from an 800, reducing sensitivity and increasing recovery speed don't seem intuitive ways to improve deep target response. I think the Manticore really is a different animal altogether and the suggestion to not treat it like an Equinox is good advice. - Dave

In this video from @abenson he shows clearly how much of an effect recovery speed has on targets. That part starts a bit before 500. Which way to go with recovery speed, does seem dirt specific. I left my 800 on recovery 4, almost all the time. But I'm learning to try up and down a notch, just to see, on the Manticore. Recovery 4 still seems a pretty good starting point on the Manticore, but I often do end up running it at 5 or even 6. And occasionally, 3. - Dave

If you have the red numbers turned on running the update, and don't turn them off or do a factory reset as part of rolling back, they'll still be there after the roll back. Which, makes me wonder what else might still be lurking after a roll back. So as advised by several members here, I've taken to doing a factory reset before and after the roll back. - Dave

I wonder, how the update with the M8, considering #2, fares on tiny gold compared to the M8 on the old version. Complications, always complications 😁. On the Manticore plus side, I was reminded this morning of how fast the Manticore is. It think it does better than the 800 at finding good targets amongst non-ferrous park trash. With the 11" coil at least. This morning I was in a spot I've hit with the 800 before. There's a section with heavy EMI and heavy non-ferrous trash, that I've definitely plucked some quarters and dimes out of with the 800, but it's not the easiest ground to detect. But scrubbing it with the Manticore this morning, once again, I was reminded that it really does do better than the 800 for me in those conditions. Cherry picked about $7 in clad, a tungsten and a few junk rings and only four trash items out of there in two hours before the temperature started getting up there. Considering what I know of the spot from hitting it in the past, that was nothing to complain about. - Dave

I actually really quite like the Manticore. Even though, I have gone through much of what @steveg has described. Before the update, I was getting into a really nice groove with the machine. I think it is deeper than the 800. And the audio and ID splatter can be learned and exploited. The ID splatter is only a thing, for me, in my dirt, in the copper penny/clad dime range where I typically dig everything anyway. On low conductors and in the clad quarter and silver range I don't see much ID splatter at all. Especially on the low/mid conductor. I can call nickels on the Manticore crazy good (except for gold rings and broke in half oval tabs - the only two surprises when I'm thinking nickel). I still have my 800 and have even used it more than a couple of times recently for the 6" coil. No flies on the 800. I think it's an awesome machine. But, I don't see myself going back to it. I don't like the update though. Just rolled mine back (again) today. Had decided to give the update another try, but it really seemed like what you just said @Chesroy. Like I was punishing myself to try and learn something that I didn't like. After my initial learning curve on the old version though, I really do, quite, like the Manticore. @steveg, with your typically red Oklahoma dirt, I don't think I'd be in any hurry to try the update. - Dave

I've used my 800 with the 6" coil a few times in the last month. First thing I noticed is how bad the grip is compared to the Manticore. The 800 grip never bothered me at all. The Manticore is just that much better. @phrunt pretty much nailed my take on is the Manticore worth it. Which is to say, it depends... It was worth it to me. But I can sure understand why it might not be to someone else. - Dave

No, I used the word granular in regards to how incredibly adjustable the Manticore ferrous limits are. To a really granular level. And they are graphically displayed on the TT and the relationship of a signal to those limits is evident on the TT but almost completely missing with just the ID number. A clean copper penny with a 76 ID and with no co-mingling, ground and depth not withstanding, I would fully expect to land solidly on the non ferrous line. There's not just one 76 though. There is a whole range of 76's from the top of the upper ferrrous limits, down through the non-ferrous line to the bottom of the lower ferrous limits. The ID only shows two of them, ferrous or non-ferrous. There are two types of ferrous on the Manticore though and the TT shows which, or sometimes both, an ID is landing in. The ID only shows it's one of the two types of ferrous - if, the signal lands in your ferrous limits. Or TT shows if it's reporting a non-ferrous ID that is actually not on the non-ferrous line but between it and the upper or lower ferrous limits. It's just information, clues, whatever you want to call it that the ID, by itself, does not provide. It's what the audio is also reporting. But in a format that is easier to understand and especially easier to interpret how cross checks compare. No magic. But not what you keep saying it is as just a singular plot of a singular ID, either. That's not how the Manticore works. Might be helpful to think of TT as providing a graphic representation of the FE number to go along with the CO number. I'm finding TT to be a pretty darn good iron probability indicator. Or a corroded copper or brass indicator. Or a non coin shaped, coin sized indicator. - Dave

That's ignoring the second axis of TT. Which the ID's give no indication of until fully ferrous. A 76 may very well NOT land on the non ferrous axis. It may plot above or below it, but still outside the ferrous limits that have been set. A clue the ID does not provide. Seeing where IDs land in relation to the very granular ferrous limits provided by the Manticore on TT and how they trend, up or down, left to right on successive interrogation passes, you see visual patterns and the reoccurrence of them starts to help quite a bit. In my opinion. TT combines audio and IDs. Audio is quite subjective. TT shows you what your settings on the machines filters have processed the signal to. For myself, my hearing is poor. I can't hear a Garrett Carrot for example - can't hear it at all. There are obviously clues in the TT that can't be provided by the ID's alone. Why that escapes you I don't know. - Dave

And, you can see two or three tight passes from different directions and the differences between them all at once. As well as iron probability. The diagonal direction of the smears have some meaning and I'm finding it easier to interpret that on the graph than with my ears. For me, ID's on interrogation passes do indeed convey some clues as to size, shape, density. But the TT makes it easier for me to process all that information. I wasn't too enthusiastic about TT before I got it. But I really like it now that I've used it a lot. - Dave

To add to the "turned on when not meant to" theme. I've found the power button almost too easy to engage. More than a couple of times, my 105's have managed to turn themselves on while bouncing around in the back of my Jeep, while inside the provided case. Almost too common, that I've taken them out of the case to find them already powered on. Way too bloody hot to use the dang things right now anyway though. Sure wish there was an elegant ear bud solution. I'm learning to live with the speaker - and, it's fine, really. Just hate to use it in public parks. - Dave

That you can't save custom discrimination patterns just irritates me. The interface is all there. It's a deliberate hold back of a feature. And it irritates me. Get to save one, by tying up a search mode as a favorite. Lame. - Dave

I had pretty low expectations for the Manticore, I think, compared to much of what I was reading from others before it shipped. I expected zero depth gain over the 800. Wasn't expecting more stable ID's (but wasn't expecting worse). Was hoping (not expecting) noticeably improved EMI handling, that's the main reason I bought it and the Manticore has delivered on that and it's enough for me to call myself satisfied. It is deeper in certain conditions, the salt beach particularly. I use and like the target trace more than I though I would - I actually didn't care about it at all, pre-purchase. But I do use it now and do like it. It's all around nicer and better handling. I just wasn't expecting to be "wowed" or expecting anything like a "game changer". So the fact I'm not wowed and it's not a game changer didn't cause disappointment. So, yeah, satisfied. Didn't like the update though. Can't see myself using the big red numbers or the stabilizer, but even with those turned off I didn't like the overall effect on the machine. Rolled back and am happy with it again. - Dave

Target ID's on deeper targets got noticeably worse, in my dirt. Silver coins reporting as iron. But, I had gotten used to the jumpy ID's and they don't bother me anymore. For me, my targets and dirt, the big ID spread isn't across the whole range, either. It's mostly limited to the US copper Memorial/clad dime range. I can't reliably call a copper penny from a clad dime. But below that, I can call a zinc. Zincs are bouncy too, but they always have been with their range of corrosion - but they rarely cross into copper penny ID's. Above clad dime, clad quarters are pretty solid and not too jumpy, typically not more than two numbers. Going down to Jefferson nickels, the Manticore is rock solid for me, usually a single number. Though that number isn't the same in all modes in all soil conditions. But I can call nickels vs square tabs very, very well with the Manticore. So, I dig copper penny/clad dime signals always, everywhere, anyway. So have gotten to where I'm not bothered by the jumpy ID's in that range. Silver, I don't find enough of it consistently, to be really claiming I can call it, but I have found about 15 silver coins and closer to 20 .925 items with the Manticore so far and they have been pretty solid ID's, relative to depth. The other complaint I have heard most often is iron falseing. And yes, I have experienced that with the Manticore since day one. But, it's not any worse than I was used to with the Nox and I am not often fooled by it. So, that has never bothered me. I guess, the two big complaints, aren't ones that I have cared much about. And it seems in my soil, the first stab at a cure is worse than the disease? - Dave

Very helpful. Thanks Andrew! What you were describing on your first update, was worse than what I was seeing. But what you show in the video, after your second round, is exactly what I was seeing. I'm back on the old version and liking it better too. In ten hours of turf hunting on the update I didn't dig anything deeper than 4-1/2". In two hours after rolling back I dug several coppers between 5 and 8-1/2". I don't believe that is coincidence. And, I didn't like the change in the audio with the update. Even with stabilizer and filter turned off, the audio was not the same and I didn't like the change. I could have adjusted to that but the feeling I was losing real depth is why I switched back and I'm satisfied in my own mind that it wasn't just my imagination or cognitive bias. - Dave

I bet that would probably work. Sounds too easy though 😂. Besides, reinstalling the update let me try it on my difficult dime again, then rollback and try it again. My machine hits that particular target better with the old version. I don't know that I'm seeing the same, or as much of an issue as @abenson but I think I'm seeing some of it. At some point I'll reinstall the update and do more testing. But for now, I'm more confident and comfortable with the old version. - Dave

Yes, looking at mine right now, 5.12.0-3.4.0 is what is installed now after rolling back. I'm not really bothered by the red numbers but don't really like them either. So I'm reinstalling the update to turn them off and then rolling back again 😂. I'll double check that I have both the Stabilizer and Stabilizer filter turned off for all modes while I'm at it. The filter isn't supposed to be active with the Stabilizer turned off, but, I thought the Stabilizer was supposed to default to Off, too, and it wasn't. - Dave

I bet you had the red numbers turned off, on the update, before rolling back? I had them turned on and didn't think about turning them off before rolling back. What I'm guessing, is the red numbers feature was already there before the update, just toggled off and not visible. The update toggled the feature on. Turning the red numbers on, gets stored in a config file or user xml or settings table or something like that. The setting was either "off" before the update or not written. Using the feature on the update wrote the setting and now the machine is still reading the setting and showing the feature, but without the menu item to turn it off. An abundance of paranoia, might lead one to make sure and turn the Stabilizer off on all the search modes before rolling back. - Dave

I remember reading that. I think I remember reading he had a crosshair on his target trace too. - Dave

So after about ten hours of hunting on the update, I just rolled mine back, for a couple of reasons. Just now went out and tried the dime target that was giving me trouble and it - to me - is clearly hitting it better than with the update. But, another observation, is that this is NOT the previous version, either. Because, ferrous numbers are now red, as with the update, but there isn't a setting to turn that off anymore either. So, can used the updater to revert to an older version, but it's not necessarily the same version you had before the update. It certainly seems not to be on mine. - Dave

All of the most update averse people I know are software engineers. - Dave

TLDR: Inconsistent enough to be inconclusive. But I think I'm probably not having depth issues. Probably... In my backyard. A silver Rosie I buried 7" deep, in 2007. It has migrated North about 4" from where I buried it. There's a tree nearby that wasn't there when I buried the dime and I suspect the tree roots have moved the dime. Whether it got any deeper, shallower, tilted, no idea. But it has moved. Another silver Rosie two feet away, buried 5" deep hasn't moved. Manticore with the update and a Nox 800 on the latest update, both 11" coils. Only one machine at a time turned on. Both noise cancelled, then ground balanced, and re-ground balanced at every search mode change. The Manticore got noise cancelled a few more times when got a tad noisy switching modes. Ran sensitivity on both machines as high as they would go and remain quiet/stable and that was 26 - 27 on the Manticore and 24 on the 800. Both machines all tones. Recovery 4 on the Manticore and 2 on the 800. Edit to add: Default ferrous limits on Manticore except in ATG where I have lower opened up completely and upper at a flat 3 (that's my go to mode and I didn't feel like changing my regular Ferrous limits on it...). FE2=2 on the 800. First go with the Manticore. I left the Stabilizer at 4, as it came out of the box with the update (ML video says default is off, but it's not). Started with ATHC but all the AT modes were similar. Could get "a signal" on every sweep, but it was not a good sounding signal. Iron grunts mixed in with numbers mostly in the 50's but swinging from high 40's to high 90's. Just not a dig me signal to my ears - I would not have stopped for it on a wild hunt. Turning on default disc made it more broken up and worse. It jumped all over the 5" dime though. Goldfield gave strong signals but was ringing mostly 50's. I probably wouldn't dig it on a turf coin hunt but most other types of hunts I would. Tried the 800. Only used P1, didn't have to try anything else. It gave a good signal that I'd dig. Little faint, little jumpy, but hitting in the sweet range and sounded pretty good to me and combined with the depth, I'll stop and dig that. Went back to the Manticore. Just swept it over the 7" dime, just to see, before changing the Stabilizer to 0 to see what difference that would make. Dang Manticore was hitting pretty good on the dime this time? Just turned it on, no change of any settings (it was in ATHC). Just minutes earlier it was really struggling on that dime. But now it was gave a signal that would cause me to investigate. A soft but distinct beep in the high 60's on first sweep and circling it could get a pretty good 70-80's from one direction, with a pegged depth meter. Still a few random iron grunts in AM, but this time it actually sounded better with default disc on. I'd dig that. I still think the 800 hit on it a bit better though? Turned off the Stabilizer, went back and forth off and on a few times - it sounds better on that dime with the Stabilizer turned off, for sure. Edit to add: The Manticore AT modes were all quite similar, but, ATHC did in fact provide the best signal on the 7" dime. On the first go round with it, I wouldn't have stopped for any of them though. I'll have to play with the Stabilizer in real iron, but seems like for a typical turf hunt for me, it's better left off. And so that is so inconsistent, I'm not going to draw a conclusion. I don't "think" I'm having depth issues. Because the Manticore did hit on the dime. But, then again, I do "think" the 800 hit on it better? And there was that first try, where the Manticore just whiffed. Sorry I'm not contributing any clarification here. - Dave

I live pretty close to @abenson (I've run into him detecting a couple of times). In a few hours I'll give my Manticore with the update a compare to my Nox 800 in my test garden which is likely very similar dirt to his. - Dave