Steve Herschbach

The development cost is just one missing part of the puzzle when people just look at the hardware and say "oh, it would only cost X dollars in parts to make this". Well, yeah, once you have figured out how to make it! Add in marketing expense, warranty repair costs, etc. and there is a whole heck of a lot more cost in that GPZ 7000 than people think. You can never discount the genius in a garage but the fact is huge cash flows and large engineering teams does give one a distinct advantage when it comes to staying on the cutting edge.

Jason made a comment on another thread about the virtues of not getting bogged down hunting small gold. I wanted to comment without getting off topic so here goes. In my opinion big nuggets generally go to the first coil over them. They are big and so kind of hard for any good detector to miss. Let's say there is a nugget that a detector can hit at 20". That means as long as any of those nuggets or larger exist in the top 20" you get them. Now you go back and hunt with a machine that can hit those same nuggets to 24". The problem is for all intents and purposes you are now detecting only 4" of additional depth, and the odds of one of those targets being in 4" of ground is far less than the odds of one being in 20" of ground. And in fact due to the way many desert placers form, your odds are even worse because many desert placers get leaner the deeper you go. Those big deep nuggets of your imagination may just not be there, as has been proved by many (not all) failed bulldozer pushes. There is therefore a lot to be said for Jason's method of covering lots of hopefully virgin ground fast with larger coils to go for the larger gold even if you give up some depth doing it. I spent much of my detecting career hunting like that. The problem is pretty simple. It is getting very hard to find virgin ground that has good enough gold for this method. Days if not weeks can pass between decent finds, making this only for people with lots of time and extreme patience. My method now generally has shifted to cleanup mode. Hunting slowly and methodically chasing smaller gold with the GPZ with the idea that any deeper nuggets I get over will take care of themselves. Oftentimes for most well hunted areas that means only getting small gold but at least I am finding gold, and the GPZ hits about as small as anyone could wish. And if a larger one comes along I have high confidence I will nail it easily enough. As anyone can attest however, those big ones are getting very rare. Novices in particular I have to recommend slow and careful, going for the small stuff. Finding gold, any gold at all, is an extremely important confidence builder and essential if the novice is not going to quit the game after only a few outings. If money is no object, there in my opinion is no surer way to get some gold than to get an SDC 2300 and go as slow and as methodically as possible with it. If you can't find gold with a 2300 you are in entirely the wrong locations, or electronic prospecting simply is not for you.

I have always believed that Minelab can trace their success to not underestimating what people will pay for high performance detecting gear. I too many times when making a pitch to detector companies in the past was told "people won't spend that much for a detector". Gold detectors in particular got treated as a niche market by the U.S. manufacturers and Minelab took full advantage of that fact to eventually dominate the market. People think of places like Africa as being dirt poor. Yet for a couple years Minelab could not build and ship the GPX 4500 quick enough and every dealer in the US got calls from buyers willing to pay over retail to buy detectors ten at a time, which they then sold for double or triple retail in Africa. It does not surprise me the GPZ is selling well in Africa and probably in greater numbers by far than anywhere else.

99% of my nugget detecting is done with the Minelab GPZ 7000. I have two backup units. The first is the Makro Gold Racer. It covers me for places where I think there may be very small gold the GPZ is missing. I did see an example just recently where an area hunted to death with the GPZ 7000 and SDC 2300 gave up some more tiny bits running a hot VLF. I have to say however I rarely find it worth my while to chase those remaining tiny bits - better to just keep going with the GPZ and find another larger bit. Where the Racer really is more useful is if I get into a really trashy location and for lightweight scouting. It is also one of my jewelry detectors. My backup PI is the Garrett ATX. I have been lax about bringing it along but will remedy that in 2017. It folds up so small it is silly not to bring it along. The ATX can ground balance out basalt or other hot rocks that can be troublesome for the GPZ in some locations. It also can 100% ground balance into the salt range, making it great for salt alkali areas where the GPZ really struggles. It is of course also waterproof, but I have not detected in the rain since I left Alaska, where detecting in the rain is commonplace. The ATX is also my number one beach/surf detector.

Just in case you were wondering - from http://www.codan.com.au/Portals/0/investorpubs/Half Year Company Announcement Feb 2015 Final complete.pdf in 2015: "Minelab launched the GPZ 7000 gold detector to the market in February. This is a significant new product platform that has taken five years to develop at a cost of over $10 million." The good news for Minelab is it has paid off as sales and profits for Codan have been up in the last few years after collapsing when the Africa GPX 4500 bubble popped. From the Codan 2016 Annual Report "while sales were strong in the developed world when the product was released last year, the most significant growth in our FY16 gold detector sales has come from the successful launch of this product into our African markets. The GPZ 7000® was launched in Africa in October 2015, and demand exceeded our initial expectations". Since Minelab's parent company Codan is publicly traded interesting tidbits can be found in their annual reports. A few more: "The GO-FIND® is now Minelab’s highest unit seller" "FY17 OBJECTIVES - Release two exciting new products – lower-priced gold machine for Africa and improved larger coil for GPZ 7000®.... Continue investment in product development to create next wave of new products in FY18." Nobody knows for sure how many metal detectors are sold worldwide but Codan alone currently does close to $100 million sales annually in detecting equipment. That does however include landmine detection equipment. Check out pages 19 and 20 of the 2016 report for more details.

Well, the thread is claiming better performance than a TDI for sure, and that seems very reasonable. It is going to take a really reliable third party to prove it matches a GPX 5000 however. Like you Norvic!! Are you seriously thinking of getting one? Risky for you but it would be very beneficial for others on the forum.

Low frequencies expand the high end VDI numbers. High frequencies expand the low end numbers. And... you guessed it... mid frequencies expand the mid range. It's a sliding effect. When you say 40 you may be referring to many machines where 40 is the beginning of the non-ferrous range. The classic range is positive numbers non-ferrous and negative numbers ferrous. The classic range is 1-95 non-ferrous. When you say 40 to me you could be talking a super low end number or a mid-range number. All discussions of normalization usually focus only on the non-ferrous range. I am assuming you are referring to the Fisher and Nokta range which starts as 40 non-ferrous. That being the case, high frequencies expand that range. Excellent article with chart http://www.thebeepgoeson.com/display.asp?page=DFX_VDI_Norm And also on V3i Link deleted since Findmall Forum update broke all old links Something for a new thread really. Back to the Impact - we do not know the details on that yet. Comment on the Deus. It can deliver raw numbers or normalized numbers. The problem is almost everyone acknowledges the Deus VDI accuracy is poor at best so it is not as useful as it could be.

You are referring to VDI normalization. Different frequencies shift and compress the VDI scale. This can be compensated for through "normalization" which is just a simple math adjustment internally. However, I prefer the option to run in raw VDI mode. The DFX and V3i allow both raw and normalized VDI numbers. Low frequencies expand the range on the high end allowing the results for coin hunters to be spread out and more distinct while compressing the low end of the scale. Low conductive results bunch together. Raw high frequency numbers do the opposite - coins bunch up on the high end but you get better resolution on low conductive targets. I run my DFX in 15 kHz raw mode to allow better speed on aluminum, lead, and gold targets. The DEUS allows both raw and normalized results. The problem with raw numbers is you need to change your memory for each frequency because the number change. Normalizing everything to standard numbers makes it easier for novices in particular to get on board. Tons of good info here, see pages 4-2 and 4-3 in particular. https://www.whiteselectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/V3i-advanced-users-guide.pdf

I am not aware of there being such a thing as a "variable frequency" detector in the past, but see Sheltons post above for an example of just that. The problem basically is coils. Coils must be tuned for a specific frequency or specific sets of harmonic frequencies. That is why the frequencies in selectable frequency machines are specific multiples. If you have an infinite variable adjustment you will only get optimum performance when the coil is matched to specific frequencies and at the other settings there will be a coil/frequency mismatch resulting in lost performance.

Hi Jason, My new thing personally is selectable frequency VLF. In theory if one can be made that really does the job it would negate my need for two or more VLF detectors. The White's V3i made a good stab at it but is overly complicated and bulky. The X-Terra series requires a coil change to change frequencies but at ten years old now is a bit behind when it comes to performance. The DEUS is the obvious leader in this department right now but I will never be fond of the detector in a coil concept. I want an expensive control box with lots of cheap coil alternatives, not a detector where every coil is a new detector and priced as such. I admit I appear to be in a minority there. Nokta has to be gunning for DEUS like performance with the Impact so it may well prove to be more like what I am seeking. At this point though I personally am fixated on what the high end frequency will be, and Impact at 20 kHz is likely to be trumped by DEUS V4 at around 55 kHz. There is more to small gold performance than just frequency however so time will tell. I have to keep my DFX because it runs my Bigfoot coil but I would not mind replacing all my other VLF detectors with just one machine.

Mike, QED is simply the name of the detector under development that is supposedly going to come to market. Long story short, a low cost alternative to the Minelab PI. Where the name derives from I do not know. ads by Amazon...

I would buy one of those.

The Tesoro Sand Shark is incapable of ground balancing and so is only suitable normally for beach detecting. It can be used in low mineral ground but then again, so can a good VLF. Bottom line, the Sand Shark is really a beach detector, not a prospecting machine. The Garrett Infinium came out before the TDI. I think the TDI has the edge coil to coil by a slim margin but the main difference is the vast number of coils available for the TDI versus the Infinium, which if leveraged properly also give an advantage. The Infinium being discontinued now means unless you find one of the few left sitting on dealer shelves can only be had used. True story also. Every one of the four Garrett Infiniums we had at Moore Creek eventually failed and had to go back for service, plus the one that one of my partners had. Five out of five! When you handle one you would think they are bullet proof but we proved differently. Unless you need waterproof, I would always chose a TDI over the Infinium.

The SD 2200 is discontinued and service is basically unavailable. If having a warranty or being able to have the unit serviced is a concern, the TDI SL is the only option of the two.

Nice cake - Happy Birthday & Anniversary!

Note added Feb 17, 2017 - Official Nokta Impact Release Information The Nokta Impact is currently in field testing. From Dilek at http://www.dankowskidetectors.com/discussions/read.php?2,114963,117790#msg-117790 "FYI - Only a few are out for testing, not all. We had delays due to the cable supplier. More to be sent out in the coming 2 weeks." For those that do not know the Nokta Impact has been in the works the last couple years and should be available to buy in early 2017. It is a machine that can run at any one of three different frequencies (selectable frequency) but not all three at once (multi frequency). The three frequencies you can choose from are 5, 14, or 20 kHz. 5 kHz is a solid coin hunting frequency. 14 kHz is typical of many "do-it-all" detectors on the market and a good compromise frequency for all targets. The main reason this machine has been mentioned on this forum is the 20 kHz option, which is a very solid nugget hunting frequency. I would not say this is a prospecting detector per se, but it is an option for somebody who wants to do it all with just one detector. The machine also features good ergonomics, a hidden cable design, and wireless headphone option. Price unknown at this time but knowing Nokta it will be very affordable. Coils for the machine will be new design so no existing coils will work on the machine. The following photos are from prototypes spotted on the internet and so changes may be seen in the final product.

I agree, SD 2200. Main thing is the battery - they do go bad with age or possible overcharging. A new Minelab replacement runs $128 but there are aftermarket options.

These are all excellent ideas Tom. Especially more power/closer to Pro performance. I still look at getting a TDI SL every once in awhile simply because of the ergonomics. There are places in California where it is very steep, hands and knees type prospecting and in thick brush to boot. The best thing going for the TDI SL is the light weight knock around aspect.

I found my largest nugget/specimen (1.93 oz, pic below) with the TDI and 12" coil in brush so thick I could barely force myself through it. If your machine is giving false signals from being lifted or tilted the machine is either not properly ground balanced, or the coil may be bad.

The original TDI and TDI Pro have excellent performance in pure PI mode. However, gold prospecting is all about how well a PI can perform while ground balancing. I was involved in the TDI development and therefore in 2008 pulled strings to get several of the very first TDI models off the production line shipped to my mine at Moore Creek, Alaska. I ran a pay-to-mine operation there and we provided detectors for those who did not have their own. I replaced four Garrett Infiniums with four TDI units, plus had one of my own. http://www.detectorprospector.com/steves-mining-journal/whites-tdi-moore-creek-alaska.htm The visitors by and large did bring their own detectors, and the GPX 4500 was new in 2008, so people were packing the 4500 and earlier models. Everyone was curious about the new TDI and frankly everyone always wants to see somebody knock Minelab off their pedestal. So lots of comparisons went on that summer, and the result was always the same. The Minelab's easily got big gold deeper and hit smaller gold better. My response was always the same "well yeah, for the money they should". That sounds good at a sales counter, but the fact is people get together with different detectors all the time, and word gets around quick. In any gathering it quickly becomes obvious that money saved on a purchase is false economy when people with more expensive machines are finding the gold while the less expensive machines struggle. This is excaberated by the most experienced people normally using those expensive units, while often the less expensive units are being used by less experienced people. Double whammy. It is not about opinions or bias or anything but simple observable facts in the field as seen by numerous people. The reason the TDI in any version is not selling well with nugget hunters is any Minelab from the SD 2100 on outperforms it for gold prospecting. The gold fields are playing out and it is a performance arms race out there. From the perspective of many people like me it's not whether or not we can afford a Minelab. It is whether we can afford the gold missed by using anything less. Most serious prospectors are extremely practical people, and there is less brand name loyalty or bias then people think. All you have to do to get a prospector to jump ship is show them you have a better mousetrap. Most debates among prospectors these days are over which is better - a GPX or a GPZ? Or maybe the SDC. Or if money is tight, which used Minelab? The TDI is old tech and if White's really wants to get back in the game with prospectors then it is imperative that the new patent tech be brought to market, and soon. The only thing keeping the TDI in play is price and ergonomics, and that advantage may be gone very soon. If Garrett ever puts the ATX circuit in a light, inexpensive housing with decent coils at a lower price the TDI is dead. If Nokta gets something to market using the expired Minelab MPS (Minelab SD series) patent the TDI is dead. There is no point Fisher bringing a CZX to market unless it is a TDI killer. The under $2K high performance market is ripe for the taking.

Nothing changed out that way as far as I know, other than gold getting rarer every day.

More caution than is the norm is in order here due to the many unknowns. However, I gather everyone here knows my thoughts on bashing and negativity so please avoid that here. They deserve some time and a fair hearing just like everyone else. As always field reports from regular purchasing prospectors will be very important. Still lots of room for improvement in high power non-VLF units selling for under $2K. All it has to do is beat the TDI and they have the advantage of US imports to Australia being overpriced. And only getting worse with dollar strengthening.

I can't speak for Chris but I don't see myself doing anything like this in the near future. There are lots of other possibilities, the first being to join a club to get some hands on with knowledgeable members. Dealers like Rob Allison and Gerry McMullen offer training, and both Digger Bob and Ray Mills have done outings in the past. Even going to something like the annual Rye Patch hunt is a good idea when it comes to meeting knowledgeable people running lots of different detectors.

AussieMatt pointed out on another thread that lo and behold, the QED has appeared. I am not going to mess with all the long back history. Instead, it looks like we may finally have a new detector model from an independent designer after so many false starts over the years. If nothing happens to upset the cart reports should be coming in from Australia in the near future. Anyway, congrats to bugwhiskers and company. I truly do wish for it to go well for all involved.

Personally I like almost everything about the TDI SL. Great price, good feature set, good coil selection, and excellent ergonomics. Unfortunately it just lacks that little bit more punch I would like to see. In moderate to low mineral ground I found that just about any decent prospecting VLF in all metal mode does as well or better. For much of Nevada for instance a VLF is a better choice, especially when something like a GMT can hit small gold invisible to a TDI SL. It is only when you run into serious hot rocks or real bad ground, like the California serpentine ground, that the TDI pulls ahead with its better ground handling capability. While it is true there is nothing like it for the price new, I think it has been long since proven that serious prospectors are not shy of spending for performance and a just a grand more gets you a GPX 4500. And if money really is the main factor it is very hard to recommend the TDI SL to prospectors when a GPX 4000 can be had used for less money. I personally would get a GMT instead of a TDI SL if I could have only one or the other for prospecting because I think I could find more gold with the GMT. I would hazard a guess that more TDI models are used relic and beach detecting than prospecting.