jasong

The difference between the 7000 pre-release and the 6000 seems to be lack of field performance reports. Steve and JP's field reports on the 7000 convinced me to take a loan out to buy the biggest purchase (at the time) of my life, and I'm glad I did, on day 1. There was a real feeling in the air at that time that the 7000 would really open up some new ground, and it did. They should let their testers talk about the 6000 now...

But even the standard design NF coil is outperforming the stock Minelab coil on all sizes of gold you tested according to your report. In addition to being better in bad ground, and better with EMI. I cannot find a logical reason to believe Minelab, undisputed king of detector technology, intentionally only produced 2 inferior coils and called it good there and stopped. Without some other logical reason. If the reason isn't what I gave, then what is it?

Also, given my personal experience with the GPZ and X Coils, I strongly feel that Minelab is intentionally crippling the capabilities of their machines through coils in order to create or sustain a market for their lesser machines. I'm not saying that to be argumentative. That's my opinion and my observation based on the information I have available, which is granted, not as extensive as what you have. Maybe I'm wrong. But if not, that right there seems like a critical tactical error on their part which also gives an upstart company a good potential toehold into the realm of competitiveness with Minelab. When it comes to the ZVT business anyways, which again, is probably impossible until the patents expire. But when they do, I know there are some US based engineers who have already built their own similar designs which might otherwise be held from market for fear of patent litigation. These designs with better performing coils, modern design, and an inexpensive price tag would certainly be an interesting entry into the market, depending on timing.

Right. I'm not suggesting someone straight up copy the 4500 when it's patent expires. What I'm saying is that someone like a Garrett or Fisher, or even Nokta could be free to develop already existing or similar designs similar to such a machine without the current fear of ending up with their own machine in litigation because ML didn't like the idea of a competitor. I've seen it posted that this is one reason that has kept other companies from really developing competing machines. Stuff like the QED is based in part off earlier US designs, so it's not like there aren't people available here who don't have the understanding or capability to build such a machine, in fact we've seen posts from some of them showing they already have, at least generally speaking. Then on top of that, a ton of stuff like noise filtering is simply built into inexpensive, powerful MCU's today. That alone, which clearly the 6000 is employing to some extent, goes a long way in modernizing a machine similar to a 4500. Add in modern ergonomics and good modern design, and sell it at cutthroat prices at a loss to develop a customer base, and a company might have something that at least puts them in the arena to try to compete on some level and maybe hire some engineers and scientists to start patenting ideas themselves and position themselves for the future. Because honestly, a big part of the tech business world today is about patent jockeying. The question in my mind is how much future does electronic prospecting have exactly? 20 years? 40? Is there enough for any prudent investors to even want to try to build something to compete with a giant?

Agree. I am of course, as I often do, playing a bit of a devil's advocate for the sake of interesting discussion since this thread is literally asking "how does anyone compete with Minelab". However, I will note here, that just a few month before the 6000 news came out, I was virtually one of the only people posting here that I still thought there was room to advance PI technology and suggesting how it might be done - some of those suggestions now being seen in the 6000, while most other posters were saying PI already reached it's limit of progression and we won't see many (or any) more advancements there. Seems like pretty much everyone has changed their minds now. 😄 But I still believe there are some fairly inexpensive ways to advance something like a 4500 when it's patent expires, and make a fairly competitive machine in some markets, especially if a company was willing to weather a few years of losses and do some really cuthroat pricing schemes. Anyways. Eventually ML will reach a tech barrier unless they find totally new technology. And that 20 year clock is always ticking. Therein lies opportunity for some company. Eventually. If anyone is even still seriously detecting for gold by that time, whenever it might be.

If that's the case then I don't know that we have any companies even trying to compete with Minelab then. When it comes to gold machines anyways. The ATX, the Impulse? What current ML product would those even be competing with? I believe there are places a smartly run company could tactically take market share, especially with patents like the 4500 on the chopping block soon. It wouldn't be in the flagship product range though. Such a smartly run company might find some opportunity to tackle larger projects eventually.

Interesting. With Beatup's 12 pin connector observation could it be a DOD? I guess not if it's nice and lightweight? The smaller pins probably mean a wire for a chip in the coil, but that's just a guess. Very interested to learn more about the coil now. 🙂

Heeeyyy alright! Someone made it. 🙂 Thanks for the report. Sounds like a sweet machine to swing. That balancing while digging thing is another one of those small bonuses that makes a big difference, my Z takes tumbles a lot. Same with the rubber coating. Small things like these really polish a product off. Hitting a 0.1 grammer at 4 inches, with a DD, in a parking lot with EMI (how many thousands of generators are running around Quartzsite now?), that's pretty good even if it isn't in situ field conditions.

I don't know much about it either. Which to me demonstrates one of their weak points as a company in terms of being able to take on a major detecting company. Outside of forums, in the US, I doubt many have even heard of it. In the Middle East/Africa where the market for such a machine seems to be ripe, I wonder how many know a lot about it? Point being, seems to me they have more hurdles than just keeping up with ML tech. But again, I know nothing about them except that I know nothing, which itself seems to be a problem they need to solve in a general sense among potential customers.

I honestly can't figure out who that big rant is against as I don't seem to see anything written like that in the threads here. Did something get deleted?

Very nice work. A lot of modern points look like replicas, but that looks like the real deal.

There is one ace in the hole for upstart companies. Patents only last 20 years in the US and cannot be renewed if I understand correctly. The 3500 and even the 4500 have to be expiring in some years. Heck, the GPZ patents gotta be 8-10 years old by now? If Minelab has an Achilles heel, it's exactly where they took a shot at the rest of the market with the Equinox: Price. Someone could probably make a pretty capable 4500-ish detector soon with modern updates for $750, and no patent worries. Put that in the Middle East and I be you move some units. Minelab has to ensure they are always far enough ahead of the 20 year curve that old designs can't compete with current designs. Which actually might be one reason why they decided to finally make a 5000 successor (aka the 6000) after all these years?

It's kinda hilarious, this highly anticipated detector globally. And Minelab's big reveal outside the Middle East apparantly is a tiny booth at an RV show that really has nothing to do with metal detecting, in a 3,000 person town, with no advertisement so prospectors might show up and see it unless they happen to be also looking for an RV? Granted, lots of snowbirds there in the winter. But still... You couldn't get more diametrically opposite than the Equinox Parachute Guy than with this release I guess.

If it was a new GPZ 7500 I miiiiight be tempted to do a midnight run down there. I'm on the sidelines watching this one though. But they are more than welcome to stop by my land if they are flying out of Vegas and I'll stream a demo for the internet. Glad to do a GPZ comparison too. Guessing that ain't gonna happen though. 😉

I had her ask the rep if they'd be going to any other shows and it sounds like after tomorrow they are heading back to Chicago. So basically today, tomorrow, then gone. I'm surprised there was no advertising or anything, I'd have gone a few days ago if I had known, can't leave now though.

There is a Minelab rep from Chicago in Quartzsite right now with a GPX 6000 exhibiting it. Tomorrow is the last day, I can't make it down there though soon enough to see it. Anyone else in the area and curious to see might go to the Miner's Depot booth at the RV show though.

These Middle East and African dealers are showing the 6000 in shop aplenty, but none have shown it actually working in the field. That has to mean Minelab is allowing them to show a little, but not everything otherwise one surely would have shown it in action by now? So why exactly can those dealers show a little but the US dealers appear to have their hands completely tied about revealing anything still? I get that market is bigger, but so what? It's the same product and we live on the same planet.

I don't know anything about relic hunting, but with the GPX there are ways to ignore tiny ferrous items other than iron discrim. For instance: in the Chemhuevis there are these tiny metal wires everywhere from airborne WW2 target practice screens. You can eliminate good percentage of them while still running high gain and hitting deep nuggets by running in Salt Coarse (I found a 28 gram speci there with this technique). Or, you can also ignore a good percentage of them while still getting deeper nuggets by getting a good, large DD coil but staying in all metal. Also, you can increase the stabilzation to reduce or ignore the tiniest zips. The 6000 may prove to be usable for relics with some tweaks like this. The inability to change timings and always being stuck in ultra sensitivie may render these sorts of techniques moot too though, I guess we have to see. You can switch between normal and bad ground at least, so there is some adjustability, and you can run DD's (though I don't consider a 13x17 "big" so we'll have to see the coil situation). Enhance on the 4500 will actually ignore or minimize some smaller iron trash, so the ground settings on the 6000 might as well?

It's a bittersweet progression in ways. The only reason I'm detecting today is because Fine Gold and the 5000 in general kept people from running optimally and thus left behind enough leads for me to find to get a sense of what geology and topography supported nuggety gold. Done by trying to understand the 4500 settings as much as I could, and testing testing testing. If everyone was running in max gain, mono, in sensitive extra or sharp (in the places I was detecting), I'd have probably quit years ago for lack of success and inability to find enough leads to learn from. I had already learned my lessons by the time the GPZ came out, but I watch history repeat where I watched a few newer guys succeed by running Normal/high gains (something I posted about on week 1 after GPZ release and was told they were "young man settings" which I'll never forget 🙂 ) when most were stuck in Difficult/low gains for a year in mild soils in Arizona and again leaving leads behind for new guys to find and learn from. The 6000 looks to be the final edge killer though.

I get the feeling that video was supposed to be the big epic pre-release first peek "teaser" from Minleab and they hadn't exactly planned on the Dubai dealers releasing their own previews a week ago showing 100x more.

Longer and longer between them every year for me. Places I used to be able to depend on 1/4-1/2 oz'ers weekly I now struggle to get 2 grammers out of. There are still some good places to discover out there even in the lower 48 I think though. I've found gold in places no one has ever detected, no drywashing evidence, and no history of placer production. Just takes a lot of patience to explore and not find anything, which widens that gap between 10 grammers even more significantly...

Hmm, I wonder if the early video posters got reigned in a bit? I translated and read through the Youtube comments 5 or so days ago and one dealer was saying they were going to release a video of the 6000 in operation on targets/testing in a couple days and I've been really waiting for that one, but it appears the videos have stopped for now? If release is mid-Feb then these units should be on the way to the US now in preparation for sale, so I guess we'll be able to see soon enough... The manual will get released on the FCC site on Feb 9th too. I don't think any dealers would let me take it into the field to demo and report on, but I did speak to one who said he'd have a demo unit ready to swing around in the store and get a feel for. I'm curious lacking the bungee just how it feels in hand. I know the GPZ with smaller coil doesn't need a bungee but after 3 or 4 hours I end up using one anyways, so I'm curious how the 6000 feels on the arm.

The texture and triangle patterns on that piece are great. I've seen some ribbon gold from NNV but it's been mostly smooth. Museum quality piece, nice find!

I was always fascinated with pioneer history and adventure, and it always seemed like Alaska was the last and only place left here that a person go could an experience that same adventure as the people in the history books lived. I always planned to go up and spend a Walden type year out as far from anyone and anything as I could get somewhere in AK. No specific goal in mind other than to wander around and live. I could probably find a way to do it now if I sold my house. As I sit here with heat, hot showers, fresh vegetables and milk, and internet on my "remote" Arizona land, 2 hours from a major metro area. Or my "country" house in Wyoming on a paved street 5 minutes from a Loaf n' Jug. I wonder if that fire still burns so brightly inside me now, or if I've grown a little too accustomed to the accoutrements of, and proximity to city life. 🙂

Rob, keep us updated on the NF coils, and also what you find out regarding the NF/Minelab endorsement. I suspect they do have an endorsement because that connector is only available from Minelab. Though, it's somewhat surprising that this information appears to be lacking from both Minelab and Nugget Finder, even though there is clearly a question about it. You would think there would be a statement, or "ML approved" logo or something? Also confusing to me is that I heard almost 2 years ago that Coiltek was building a GPZ coil from a reliable source. And I was told in no uncertain terms only a few weeks ago that Coiltek had indeed already built a GPZ coil and was still trying to get it to market or pass Minelab specifications, or something unclear to that effect. But it appears Coiltek is no closer to bringing a GPZ coil to the market still. That's the part that mystifies me, if they are the "official" Minelab coil partner, why haven't they come out with a GPZ coil when the market clearly has a large demand for such a product?