Trying To Learn The Language: Iron Nails Vs Masked Targets

[Jeff McClendon]

AirmetTango, I noticed that you are not hunting with the horseshoe function engaged at least in your photos.

I am not going to recommend that you change anything. 

All I can say is that I too, like several others, have found ATHC to false way too much in the dirt I most often hunt in. If I was not hunting with the horseshoe button engaged using ATHC and listening to lots of low tone iron responses, I would be digging a ton of nails since they can really high tone false using that mode.

ATG and ATLC false on iron less and are just more stable where I detect. I mostly use ATG with the factory upper and lower iron presets, All Metal discrimination pattern, recovery speed 4 or 5, sensitivity between 22 and 24 and the horseshoe button engaged. I am using a similar 5 tone setting to yours.

I have been digging a lot of silver coins, about 5 times that many wheat pennies and deep copper memorial pennies and no more nails than usual which usually equals out to 3 nails or so per silver coin (43 silvers since late January 2024). I have been using the stock 11" coil which hits those 8" deep or more ferrous/non ferrous targets very easily. I have noticed that it is very difficult to get the onboard pinpoint function to fully center over some deeper iron targets and have also been able to get deep nails to often high tone false in multiple places when X-ing them. I really depend on the onboard pinpoint function for the pitch and intensity of the pinpoint tone for depth perception too. I don't spend a lot of time looking at the 2D screen and mostly use the quality of the audio responses as far as mixed audio, audio proportionality, audio tone bin and the depth meter over potential deep ferrous/non-ferrous targets.

[AirmetTango]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:31 PM, fishersari said:

Edit: found the post.. copy and paste from

Excessive Falsing in Iron - Minelab Official Response.
I contacted Minelab and was happy to receive a very thorough reply:

***The MANTICORE is a very different detector to the EQUINOX, despite some similarities…

…Some users (more so in North America than Europe it seems) are having particular difficulty with iron. Certain types of iron, combined with low soil mineralisation like what you describe (and is quite common in North America) seem to make this the most difficult. (Interestingly, users in higher soil mineralisation seem to have much less difficulty.)
 

Great information throughout, fishersari - and thanks so much for finding and re-posting that response from Minelab. Very interesting to see that the iron falsing tendency seems to get more pronounced in soil with less mineralization - as I mentioned, the soil in my area generally has very low mineralization. It looks like I have to be much more selective about when I choose to run in ATHC, be more savvy about my supporting settings when I do, and be willing to dig noticeably more iron in exchange for some potentially masked targets if I elect to go after the iffier signals.

 

@UT Dave @Jeff McClendon @TampaBayBrad @Dug D @Skull diver,

Thanks to all of you for your very helpful replies - excellent advice and observations throughout, and I’ve already begun to implement many of your suggestions as I continue to learn the machine, and I’ve already seen a dramatic difference.

Over the weekend, I spent a couple hours at one of the sites that was giving me so many problems in my original post, only this time I stayed in ATLC. It’ll probably come as no surprise to any of you that I had almost no falsing difficulties whatsoever. I’m not sure what my problem was when I had tried that mode on my first few hunts with the machine and I came away thinking it was falsing as often as ATHC - maybe I had my settings jacked up, maybe it was inexperience with the machine, or maybe I was just plain mixed up. But ATLC over the weekend was a night and day difference for me versus ATHC - I even came home with a ‘36 Merc from a pounded park. 

I’m a  bit embarrassed that I didn’t think of going back and trying ATLC on my own before posting, but hopefully this thread can help other new Manticore owners as much as it turned the light bulb on for me…a lot of excellent wisdom in these follow up posts. 

[AirmetTango]

On 5/5/2024 at 5:11 PM, Jeff McClendon said:

AirmetTango, I noticed that you are not hunting with the horseshoe function engaged at least in your photos…

Good eye! My first couple years on the Equinox 800, I almost always hunted with the horseshoe engaged. On the occasions that I didn’t, I always had the reference threshold in the background so I still had a gage on how polluted the soil might be getting. The last couple years, I started using what I called my “Poor Man’s 6-Tones” on the Equinox that used the threshold exclusively as my iron tone (iron range notched) while my first tone bin went to the bottom of the nickel range (gave me room for threshold as iron, then sub-nickel, nickel, trashy, IHP thru Copper Penny, and Dime & above ranges - total of 6 “tones” for a 5 tone setting). Anyway, the point is, I got very used to hearing threshold breaks as my iron tone. I’ve carried that trait over into the Manticore, which, to me, is essentially built on the same concept - a dedicated ferrous tone, and up to 5 dedicated non-ferrous ranges. Long story longer, I’ve been keeping the horseshoe disengaged w/reference threshold on during the majority of the hunt, and now engaging the horseshoe only for targets I’m stopping to investigate more thoroughly - the pronounced iron tone and red numbers jump out more noticeably on the iffy target, for sure.

I’m pretty sure just having the reference threshold break as my iron tone on the Manticore was encouraging me to over-focus on the 2D display, especially since I was trying to learn what that was trying to tell me. You’re right, having the horseshoe consistently engaged while using ATHC might have helped snap me back into reality on how bad those targets really sounded while using that mode.  As you and fishersari both suggested, I really need to put the 2D aside for now and focus on the audio quality and tone responses, and work the 2D screen in over time as the (valuable) supplementary tool that it is. Maybe I need to slap some black tape over it temporarily!! 😁

[Redneck]

I too have dug way too many deep nails, hoping for deep coins.  Over the last months I have corrected that issue quite a bit with more hours on the machine,  I also did the update finally. I now run my sensitivity lower than I used to, I also  run in ATG mode, ATHC was just more than I could handle.  In a trashy park I run speed at 6,  low target zones I drop down to 2 or 3. Sensitivity from 18 to 23. Good audio is the key. Iron targets tend to have some hesitancy in the audio. 

When I first get alerted to a possible good target with audio, and its deep, I massage the signal with short sweeps. I look at the depth meter,  I watch the number read out  .  Copper cents tend to bounce from the mid 60's to mid 70's,  where as deep iron nails often bounce from the 60's into the mid 90's. If there is trash next to a coin, often times the audio seems biased towards the coin. The good audio tries to override the trash.  Its been a few years since I have done this well in the pounded parks I hunt. The manticore is a beast,  it takes some time to tame. Its a work in progress for me. 

[longbow62]

Take this for what it's worth, which may not be much. I have used ATHC from the get go. That's getting close to a year and a half. ATHC, 5 tones, slightly lower ferrous limits, 4-5 recovery, 20-24 sensitivity depending on surface trash. I run with the horseshoe button always on. I have to check a lot of targets, but I don't dig that many that aren't pretty solid. I may be missing some stuff, but if I am not seeing pretty much the same thing both ways I don't dig. Or it really has to be absolutely perfect one way and somewhat marginal the other. Almost every time I turn on a suspect target I get the kind of info that makes me walk away. Absolutely zero so far that I had low confidence in have turned out to be good.

So I got a buddy who until recently didn't have a Manticore. So he and I were covering a lot of the same ground. He was using a different detector with a 9" coil. He knows how to use too. On a site that has been continually occupied for at least 150 years and has shredded beer cans everywhere because it's right up against a gravel road I pretty much destroyed him in finding coins and buttons. I dug so much nonferrous junk because you just couldn't risk not digging it. He also dug just as much modern junk and can slaw as I did. I sure didn't dig much iron though. It's a large farm field so stuff could be shallow or deep. Granted most of the good targets I found were no deeper than 4". The Manticore running the 11" coil seemed to trump the other detector running the 9". I don't see how it could have been just pure luck. The number of coins and buttons was just to lopsided for it to have been luck. The place of highest concentration was about a 200ft. square section. We hunted for several weekends and in the main area I know we had to have overlapped each other a lot.

He bought a Manticore during the sale and has been dealing with some frustration digging iron. I might get flamed, but I think there are a lot of us that just can't walk away from iffy beeps that are extremely likely to just be iron. I am coming to believe the best you can hope for on the 2d screen is when iron just pulls a close non-ferrous's I.D. down some or when two targets are just in the right position to see two close side by side targets on the screen with one being alone very near the center line. Everything else is going to be a roll of the dice. I don't feel particularly lucky enough to dig very many of those.