Chase Goldman

Wow, SImon, either you didn't read my post in its entirety or really missed my point. 1) First of all, I know full well that the Vanquish is not trying to be an Equinox, but as I said in my post, people are going to make that comparison anyway either to figure out if they can "get away" with a Vanquish without paying for an Equinox or just want to know what you get for $280 to $400 more for Equinox, so I laid it out. 2) Re iron bias. I completely agree with you. Advertising that setting to entry level folks just confuses the issue. I am not the one who added Iron Bias to the Vanquish. But if they are going to add it as a feature (they made it more complicated on the 440/540 by adding two level settings), why not allow the user to turn it off completely as there are situations since where it can hinder performance. Just like Disc (which they allow you to turn off), it is a filter that can just get in the way. 3) I tend to agree with you on the go find, but really, the 340 is not offering anything above Go Find other than you can pay for an additional coil if you want and multi IQ that cannot be tamed by appropriate settings or single frequency. It is basically a wash, and that was my point. Not sure why ML bothered with the 340 with Go Find around, in the first place. 4) Regarding the ACE series - I pretty much showed the 440 DESTROYS the ACE 400 feature for feature. That is what ML was apparently aiming for and they succeeded. Not sure where you got the idea I was saying the Vanquish was NOT the choice over the Ace. 5) Re: the Simplex. This is going to be a great competition. I think ML made a mistake not providing full up waterproof protection for the Vanquish 540 at least (if not the 440 also). I think ML tried to slice things too thin by coming out with 3 entry level models. If they had focused on a way to bring the 440 along with at least a waterproof housing (and preferably wireless) at or just above the 440 price point then we might have something serious going here. As it is, the 340 is somewhat irrelevant, the 440 takes on the Ace 400 straight on but falls short, IMO, of adequately competing with the Simplex for that same Ace market share and the 540 doesn't go far enough to close the gap with the Equinox 600. Keeping things simple with just the 440 (and perhaps waterproof and wireless) would have been the best bet to adequately take on BOTH the Ace and Simplex simultaneously. IMO. I completely agree with you that both ML and Nokta/Makro are making some innovative and bold moves. I think the V440 is pretty close to being what it should have been and both it and Simplex belong in today's entry level detector marketplace. I just think the 340 and 540 are kind of irrelevant. Get a GO FIND instead of the 340 or skip up to the 440. Get the 440 or an Equinox 600 instead of a 540. That was my point.

Wish he would go into a little more detail on the video. It is still very rudimentary from a beach detector perspective. I think the fact that it does not have a mode called "Beach" is going to confuse a lot of people.

Good questions: 1. Sometimes, EMI is broad band and that can really wreak havoc on a Multi IQ detector. The ability to "noise cancel" can help but sometimes, going to a single frequency can really help settle down the detector. Also, there are situations where the Equinox has trouble seeing certain odd targets in Multi. Coins on edge are an example. ML has improved this capability somewhat, but there are situations where an iffy signal cleans up significantly if you switch from multi to single on the fly. Just another tool in the kit to help when interrogating iffy targets. Vanquish appears to lock you into Multi. I have found that multi also spews out a lot of EMI to nearby detectors. Some contest hunts, if that is something you do, have prohibited Equinox detectors from participating unless they are operated in single frequency. 2. If recovery speed is TOO high you will end up getting clipped signals on marginal deep targets, so having the ability to back off on recovery speed may be advantageous if you are primarily going after deeper targets at a site that has a low density of trash. In thick iron junk or modern trash, having the ability to dial up recovery speed is desirable. So having some level of adjustability allows you to better attack sites with variable junk and trash conditions. 3. In thick iron conditions, the Iron Bias filter basically runs counter to recovery speed so while you may silence falsing iron, you will also likely silence non-ferrous in the vicinity of that iron which eliminates the advantage of fast recovery speed. I typically run with iron bias off on the Equinox as there are several audio tells that enable you to ID falsing iron without the need to have the machine filter it out so you never have the chance to use your brain to make a dig decision on a possible masked target. Waterproof shell is great but that does not fix the other feature compromises that make the Equinox 600 a far superior salt beach detector for about the same price as an AT Pro. Yes you can attempt to get away with the Vanquish but it is not THAT much cheaper than Equinox to justify the compromises especially if you are talking purchasing additional waterproof shells that may or may not keep your warranty intact. HTH

Well, for some reason, ML did not provide a dedicated beach mode designation so that is NOT a good start (along with the lack of the waterproof housing). Theoretically, there should be a mode (perhaps Jewelry) that should work on wet salt sand. Note that with the Equinox, only the Beach modes are stable on wet salt sand. So hopefully, there is a stable beach mode setting on Vanquish. That being said, there are a LOT of missing features on Vanquish even if there is a stable mode. Lack of adjustable or tracking ground balance and auto transmit power reduction (both Equinox features) will make Vanquish struggle in black sand and surf situations where the salt and ground balance conditions change dynamically. Lack of the ability customize tones (even just reduce tones to 3 or 2 from 5) is also a drawback. Finally, wet salt beach conditions are highly variable and the ability to manually "bias" recovery speed and ground balance settings are advantageous. Neither of these options are available to the Vanquish user. Under ideal conditions, it should be a stable wet salt beach detector but it will be at the mercy of changing conditions. With the lack of waterproofing a literal show stopper, it really makes sense to move up to the Equinox 600 if you want a capable wet salt beach detector. IMO.

The Mode advantage of the V440 was primarily due to Multi IQ and it's performance on wet salt sand (which ML appears to be attributing to "Jewelry" mode based on their marketing literature as there is no dedicated beach mode as there is on the Equinox) vs. the single frequency ACE. I threw in the ALL METAL comment primarily as a neat feature (not an additional mode) due to the fact that you are one touch away from running with no discrimination (what ML calls AM but which is actually just NO DISC). I am not aware of that feature being present on the ACE other than setting up a custom program slot with NO DISC. HTH

As the specs trickle out from ML's big Vanquish reveal - it is possible to at least do a spec comparison to see how Vanquish stacks up against the competition. Depending on what you stack it up against is what determines whether the Vanquish is a winner. Vanquish vs. Equinox - Um, no. Thanks for stopping by. Though ML never intended it to stack up against Equinox, it is invariably going to be compared to Equinox due to some of it's similarities. However, other than Multi IQ, wireless, and some cool coils, it not unexpectedly, falls far short of even the Equinox 600. I have noted this in other posts, but even the 540 is not submersible and needs external weather protection, missing single frequency ops, variable recovery speed, cannot switch Iron Bias off, not clear how sophisticated ground balance compensation is applied, locked-in at 5 tones (can't go higher or lower), no tone break, individual tone volume, or tone pitch adjustments, no threshold tone, cannot notch/reject individual tone IDs (limited to 25 segments out of 50), AA rechargeables vice lithium ion (not clear if "in detector" charging is offered), and limited mode customizations. At $649, the Equinox 600 seems to be a much better value than the $369 V540 when you consider the limitations, though performance under nominal conditions should be similar. I think the lack of single frequency capability and inability to turn off iron bias could be detrimental under certain circumstances. And even though the coil is waterproof, I would not like to risk UNCOVERED BY WARRANTY damage by accidentally dropping the Vanquish into the drink if out doing some casual shallow water hunting. The XP ORX has some compelling features that are superior even to the Deus (although the Deus was clearly the overall winner) and at over $500 to $750 less, I have no issues using it as a very capable backup to the Deus (in other words, if my Deus crapped out and all I had as backup was the ORX, I feel like I would not be at too much of a disadvantage continuing on with the hunt). I cannot say the same for Vanquish at only $280 difference, I feel like two arms and one leg got cut off if I had to use that as a backup to my 600. Cut off the other leg if we are talking the 800. Vanquish vs. GO FIND - Go find has some advantages over even the V340/440 The GO FIND 44 at $199 has bluetooth and a pinpoint function vs. the V340 at $199 which lacks both. Despite having Multi IQ and interchangeable coils, I might even give the GO FIND 44 the nod over the V340 at the same price point. GO FIND 66 similarly has bluetooth and a companion app and at $249, it is closer than it should be with the V440 at $279. But V440 still wins. Vanquish vs. the Nokta/Makro Simplex - Close call but nod goes to Simplex IMO The V440 vs. the Simplex lacks full submersibility and wireless capability and even though the V440 Multi IQ is $30 less than Simplex, I have to give the Simplex the nod here based on specs alone because the V440/540 should have been full up IP67 compliant, frankly. And lack of single frequency capability can mean that the Simplex may perform better under certain circumstances than the Vanquish. We will really have to see how the two compare in the real world, but that will obviously, have to happen on dry land. Vanquish vs. Ace Series (the obvious ML target demographic) - We have a Winner! I will compare the $279 V440 vs. the Ace 400 at $340 Weight is about the same at 2.8 lbs for the ACE vs. 2.9 lbs for the Vanquish (slightly larger V12 coil might account for that delta) Coils: 8.5 x 11" DD for the Ace 400 vs. 9 x 12" DD for the V440 Target ID/Notch segments: 12 for both Frequency: 10 khz for the ACE vs. Multi IQ for the V440 (though I wish the V440 had a 10 khz single frequency option) Sensitivity Levels: 8 for ACE vs. 10 for the V440 Modes: Coins, Custom, Jewelry, Notch Discrimination, Pinpoint, Relics for the ACE vs. Coin, Relic, Jewelry, All Metal with Pinpoint and Notch Discrimination features. I give the nod to the V440 because it probably excels in wet salt sand vs. the Ace due to Multi IQ in Jewelry mode and you can "quick switch" into all metal and instantly remove any disc. Ground Balance: Both provide level of automated vice fixed GB compensation Noise Cancel: You can "shift" frequency with the Ace 400 vs. Dedicated quiet 19 channel search for the V440 Power Requirements are equivalent for both: 4 AA cells. ML was obviously gunning for the ACE 400 with the V440 and they seem to have blown that competition out of the water. But compared to Simplex which was also aiming for the same target, the differences are less clear and it is hard to declare a winner until we get some real world reports. The Simplex is going to get a head start, though, with its imminent release while the Vanquish will probably not hit the streets until early 2020, but Kellyco is taking pre-orders now. Not really a detector I would consider "pre ordering", frankly. So that notion is humorous to me. UPDATE: Phrunt made some great points that made me rethink how I presented this. As I thought about it more - I tried to figure out what was really bugging me about this whole Vanquish thing and I think I have it sort of figured out. Bottom Line: The V440 pretty much succeeds at what it is trying to be and accomplish. Namely, it is a clear ACE killer and does it at the right price point and with the right features. Problem is, it also is taking on the Nokta/Makro Simplex which is vying for the same slice of detector market real estate. ML killed the ACE on paper with the V440, but I think the lack of wireless and full up waterproof construction is going to make the Simplex look more attractive to many buyers. The reason is that it is simple to wrap your head around the ruggedness that is implied by a fully waterproof detector and the convenience of wireless. Those in the know, know that Multi IQ is great compared to single frequency, but I think that is more of a nebulous "sell" feature to the masses, so Simplex may win that battle. No matter what, Garrett needs to step up and do something radical at this price level otherwise it will be eaten alive. The other conclusion I have come to is that the V340 and the V540 are somewhat irrelevant. If you are considering a V340 either look hard at the V440 or get a GO FIND. If you are considering the V540, consider saving a few bucks and go with the V440 or make the leap to the Equinox 600. IMO. So what do you folks think about the new kid [almost] on the block?

Chuck, you are likely correct that the Equinox is likely not THAT high in frequency but ML doesn't publish the Multi IQ specs. It does top out at 40 khz for single frequency, but no one is complaining that it can't find plenty of gold nuggets. You really reach diminishing returns above 50 khz regarding your ability to penetrate the ground. The NOX is plenty sensitive to tiny targets without having to crank up the frequency above 40 and in Multi IQ.

No worries, Chuck. The feeling is mutual. I like your freewheeling style of posting. If I didn't, I wouldn't be responding to your posts . Was just pointing out that the Vanquish does need to do high frequencies even if it isn't a gold detector, because they are advertising it can find gold rings too. Multi IQ has the ability to do that because it uses a range of two or more frequencies (ML doesn't specify) from low to high (ostensibly anywhere between 5 to 40 khz if Equinox is any indication), simultaneously. But ML has not seen fit to give us the secret formula on what frequencies they DO use and how they combine them (to keep the competition guessing). So unless the Vanquish is set up to use individual frequencies (which it appears to not be able to do), ML is likely not going to post any frequencies for the machine. So what is considered high frequency as far as Vanquish Multi IQ is concerned will likely remain a mystery, for now. HTH.

That's not how Multi IQ works, you still need a higher frequency profile for jewelry and mid-conductive relics, so I suspect those modes emulate the Equinox Park 2 and Field 2 modes. Multi IQ Frequency is irrelevant, frankly. What is a key missing ingredient, though is being able to go to single frequency and that advantage is key and could result in the ACE series or Simplex being superior to Vanquish under certain circumstances. Lack of basic pinpointing on the 340 and other limitations almost makes it even less relevant than the GO FIND for entry level detecting. Wish they had just dumped the 340 and focused on squeezing a few more features into the 440 to make it more competitive with Simplex while keeping the price at $279, namely wireless and IP67 waterproof. No excuse for not doing that these days if for no other reason than you don't want to trash your detector if shallow water hunting by simply dropping the thing in the drink and having a water immediately enter the control housing. Not good. Comparing the V440 to the Ace 400, Vanquish appears to be the winner based on specs. Comparing the 440 to the Simplex, Nokta/Makro edges it despite Multi IQ on the 440, too many other compromises, IMO. Inability to switch off IRON BIAS completely is not a good thing.

The Vanquish uses Multi IQ which is a proprietary multi frequency scheme used by Minelab on the Equinox and Vanquish detectors. The Multi IQ frequency profile is not specified and varies depending on the mode selected. Similar to Equinox, I expect the Vanquish Relic and Jewelry modes would tend to favor higher frequencies for mid-conductive (i.e., brass, lead, gold, nickel) and small profile relic and jewelry targets, whereas the Coin and Beach modes tend to favor lower frequencies for high conductive silver, copper, and clad targets. HTH. btw - can't find where ML advertises that the 540 provides "a customizable frequency range setting" in the official specs. Looks like something Kellyco threw in their description but it really doesn't make sense in the context of Multi IQ as I explained above.

OK - so the big reveal has occurred and now it is time to start discussing what we know, what we don't, what we want to know (Equinox cross compatibility), the good, the bad, the ugly (definitely ugly) of the new Vanquish series. Here is the link to the specs. From there you can deep dive into each model and get more information. Some interesting tidbits about the 540 (I will focus on the 540 because it the full up model that is most comparable to Equinox). What I like: The standard/accessory coils look great, hoping for Equinox cross compatibility (V12 12" x 9" Double-D, V10 10" x 7" Double-D, V8 8" x 5" Double-D) Not a big fan of the housing but like the stem Good basic entry level detector. If you consider that two coils and wireless phones are included on the 540 pro pack, then the $499 US seems reasonable. Like thd red backlight. What I don't like: While I understand this is entry level, I really struggle with some of what is left off the detector -specifically single frequency operation appears to be absent. Iron Bias - fine, I guess, except you can't turn it off. Would have rather seen variable recovery speed, which also appears absent. 5 Tones only (cannot be reduced to 2 or 3, or increased above 5 and tone breaks are probably not adjustable either). I can live without greater than 5 tones, but locking into 5 and not being able to reduce to 3 or 2 is a tad disappointing. Questions and other Tidbits It looks like ground balancing is automatic Multi IQ compensation (not auto tracking, but auto Multi IQ balanced - i.e., what you get when you leave GB at 0 on the Equinox). Speculating here. Don't know what "Custom" search mode means because there is not much you can adjust. Not clear what audio accessories are included with the 540/540 Pro other than non-descript wireless headphones are included with the 540 pro. Note only 25 disc segments, so individual TIDs cannot be notched out. 540 Uses Rechargeable NiMH AA batteries. Not sure if they can be charged while installed or if they have to be charged externally. 340/440 use standard alkaline cells though I suppose you could put your own NiMH cells in there. Kellyco is advertising "Early 2020" availability and the following price points V340 = $199, V440 = $279, V540 = $369, and V540 Pro Pack (includes V8 and V12 coils and BT APTX LL Phones) = $499. I think the V440 most closely aligns with Simplex but lacks the wireless audio and total submersibility of the Simplex. Simplex lacks Multi Frequency. Pick your poison. Note that the coils are waterproof to only "1 m (3 ft.)" Not sure whether this is because the entire detector cannot be submerged (the housing needs a rain cover) so there is no need to specify anything greater or if the coils truly cannot be submerged deeper than 1 m, which would limit their usefulness as underwater coils with the Equinox, if they are even compatible in the first place. The limitations, though expected, really make the Equinox 600 look like a CTX vs.even the 540. Lol. More to come when I have a chance to provide a more detailed comparison of features between the Equinox 600 and the Simplex. Click on image below for larger version... Minelab Vanquish Controls & Displays All Models Minelab Vanquish 340 Detector Database Entry Minelab Vanquish 440 Detector Database Entry Minelab Vanquish 540 Detector Database Entry

Wouldn't mind any of those coils on my Equinox, frankly. LOL - someone forgot to post model numbers on the comparison chart. But obvious to figure out. Starting a new thread...for discussion and speculation now.

It will be posted if anyone knows anything. Check back after the festival is over this weekend to see if any announcements were made.

Hope it also has single frequency, too (most likely). Still a lot of questions (e.g., what are the actual dimensions of those elliptical coils, are the Vanquish multi IQ search profiles subsets of the Equinox profiles, price, accessory cross compatibility), can't wait for that website link to go live.

Chuck. Yes I have the 6". If the 8" is elliptical (e.g., 8x10 or 8x11 or even 6x8) like the other 2 Vanquish coils shown and if they are compatible with Equinox, I will have found the perfect Equinox everyday coil. The 6" is fine but the limited 6" if swing coverage vs. an elliptical coil makes it a study in frustration for me in any situation other than searching around stationary obstacles or in other confined areas.

Chuck - is this a word jumble puzzle? [jk - I think I know what you meant - basically there haven't been many detectors you haven't thought weren't worth at least a buy and a try, so your dealer(s) will be sad to see you go some day]

That is a good question. The "auto-tune" feature that enables a detector to not have to be constantly retuned is a convenience feature that resulted in the boon of motion based induction balance detectors in the 80's. Detectorists were enamored with not having to futz with re-tuning their detectors to provide the ideal threshold level which was easily thrown off by various things including drift in the detector circuitry to changing the height of the coil above the ground or changes in ground characteristics. This ultimately resulted in silent sweep detectors where the threshold was eliminated completely. The problem with auto tune was that the coil DID have to remain in continuous motion in order to hear the target otherwise the auto tune circuit would cancel out the target signal. Having a true threashold and non-motion detection without the benefit of autotuning results in the most sensitive detector overall. So the autotune circuit does tend to reduce sensitivity because it manipulates the output requiring swing motion vs. a true all metal, non-motion mode, but not because signal processing filtering is going on, in the strictest sense of what "filtering" means. Steve's article on Threshold Autotune, Sat, and V/Sat explains the background on how induction balance detectors evolved from primarily non-motion mode to motion mode, a lot better than I did here.

Ain't that the truth. I could see myself getting a Vanquish for the sole purpose of repurposing the coils and shaft for Equinox duty, for example. Lol.

Regarding the coils, I guess it depends on the the Multi IQ frequency implementation, but it seems to me that a Multi IQ coil should be compatible across detectors at first blush. That may likely be the case in the long run, but I would also not hold my breath that these would be available any sooner than Equinox was when it was also announced at Detectival. So we are probably looking at Jan/Feb 2020 availability, though I would imagine ML would like to have a Holiday release. Anyway, fun to be able to watch from the sidelines on this one as I am pretty content with my detector arsenal for the first time in a long time. I really am not itching for anything soon. Perhaps a multi IQ variant of the CTX/E-Trac, but still, it is not a burning desire at this point. Really just want to focus on detecting rather than detector acquisition, and it has been that way pretty much since the Equinox came out in early 2018, which is the longest I have gone in awhile without a major detector purchase.

Also, it would be interesting to see if the Equinox control head could be somehow mounted on that Vanquish shaft.

I want that 8" elliptical coil that comes with the 540 Pro Pack for my Equinox!!!

I think it does depend on the detector. I think in the pure audio mixed mode implementations that Mike was referring to as the more traditional mixed mode implementation, you do no lose anything. AM on the F75 is AM and the AM audio is unaffected even though you do get a visual target ID. The issue arises regarding whether the detector in "All Metal" is truly giving a raw, unfiltered all metal audio signal or simply processed audio but devoid of any "discrimination" filtering. In other words, no discrimination "pseudo All Metal" does not necessarily equate to "true All Metal" where no signal processing/filtering is occurring. In the former, even though there is no discrimination filtering occurring, there may be other signal processing/filtering going on. I think the Equinox is a good example of this as well as the Deus, where a true all metal audio output is more a voltage controlled oscillator (VCO) audio that is proportional to signal strength (volume) and phase shift (pitch) of the target signal. The Equinox does not do this when all discrimination is removed (even in the pseudo VCO audio of gold mode) and with the Deus, even though a VCO output is provided in Gold Field mode (perhaps the closest thing on the Deus to true all metal) the signal is still processed through various signal processing filters.

Get better Busho, sounds nasty. Glad you were able to get out and recover some nice saves. Nothing like gold on the coil to help you feel better.

Jeff, The iron volume thing in gold mode on the ORX is interesting AND opens up some possibilities with the ORX that I hadn't considered before. Deus does not have a gold field mode iron volume setting. It is pure vco pitch audio with visual TID with selectable Iron Audio Reject which tends to break up the pitch signal. IAR is pretty much useless to me in highly mineralized ground because at depths beyond 4 inches or so, everything looks ferrous or mixed ferrous so the IAR just breaks up the pitch signal. If IAR as implemented on the ORX simply breaks up the iron audio grunt somewhat, that makes it very useful as a "two-tone" pitch mode like I have used on the regular discrimination modes on Deus. Going to have to give this a run on my next relic hunt. Thanks for pointing that out.

Understood. It is addressed as an alternative implementation in Steve’s article on the subject of mixed mode, which I linked to so I covered it that way in my response for completeness. Understand there are varied opinions as to whether or not some consider that implementation mixed mode. I think all that matters to those who care about the feature is to simply understand whether it is implemented solely in audio (the more “typical” or traditional sense) or as AM mixed with discriminated visual TID and choose the detector that has implementation that works best for them.