Chase Goldman

Why do you say that? Whether iron bias is used depends on the nuisance factor of iron at a given site regardless of the target objective.

There is nothing about MF that should preclude the use of a concentric/coaxial coil. ML is not a fan of them apparently. They don't tolerate mineralized ground as well as DD's. I would like to see Garrett offer them for the Apex just like they have for the earlier Ace detectors.

Yes the square shank could mean more modern, but like I said, no way to know for sure. Not sure you can really clean the back without the button falling apart. So your call. I have a tin backed Confederate I button with a highly corroded back. I was told to just seal it up with an Elmers glue/water seal and put it away because they can just disintegrate.

Possibly late 19th century Victorian 2-piece button according to my sources but with the rusted tin back, hard to ID for sure because there is no reference backmark. Neat design and find. Congrats.

That's why the Orx has been moderate hit. The extreme light weight also appeals to the older crowd who want to eek a few more years of detecting. But XP has now fallen way behind especially with Apex encroaching on their weight advantage. Except that they could likely do it a lot cheaper than Tarsacci, because they have the manufacturing infrastructure and resources to do so and could price it competitively. They can but do not always do so - Vanquish, CTX, eTrac. I think as a minimum, multiple single frequency should be the mid standard with single frequency relegated only to entry level units and simultaneous Multi F overlapping mid and flagship detector levels. Hope Nokta doesn't make that mistake. Bottom line, I agree with you Multi F and at the very least multi selectable single is going to be standard fare for enthusiast level detectors and above.

Pro tip - cut the English label off one of your included protectors and keep it permanently on your machine. Then you can just change out the clear part of the protector when it gets scratched up. In this manner you can use all the international version protectors by simply snipping off the bottom label strip.

What is that Monte, your "But this one goes to 11" argument on iron volume. Yes, I think recovery speed could be an achilles heal for Apex. I see no clues they are even considering a limited mode-based recovery speed variation like in Simplex and Vanquish. I really like the Simplex relic mode with Park 1 and Beach not far behind. Funny, it seemed beach was more responsive in my test garden before the 1.77 update. Could be imagining this, but really thought that to be the case. I will have to look at the before and after video tape. I do like the novelty of the auto backlight mode on Simplex. I could see that being useful for water work. Hey, I'm all in on a complimentary Apex review model. Can't argue with that.

You might also want to wait to see how Nokta responds. Might jump start release of their MultiF machine that they did not want to release too soon on the heals of Simplex. Anyway, Simon, while you are waiting, I suggest you run out and get a Deus.

I have spent more time in the Garrett forum the past 2 days then I have spent total in the past 2 1/2 years! I am starting to get a nervous twitch as a result. Garrett just really smacked one out of the park here if they manage to deliver this thing as advertised.

Pal, Similar reasons as Steve - As Steve says - there are situations where EMI dominates the MultiF modes and a single frequency option can often resolve this. In my case, relic hunting in thick iron and mineralized soils, I find that single frequency tends to perform better for me. For one, it ensures I am hitting on a frequency reasonably optimal for the mid-conductive relics I seek (brass buttons and buckles and lead projectiles) and it it eliminates the low frequency components that tend to hit harder on buried iron targets. Even though Equinox has single frequency options, I still tend to favor my Deus or Orx for relic hunting because the Deus/Orx provides better audio modulation than Equinox (I do like to occasionally switch back and use Equinox Gold mode because of the VCO like audio). MultiF as implemented on the Equinox does provide target ID at depth better than single Frequency in mineralized soils, but the advantage is marginal. I bring both Equinox and Deus to my relic hunts. Also have similar success on coke and coal in farm fields that were tended by steam engine tractors. I have found the main advantage of Multi F on a salt beach or when hunting in mild soil conditions without thick iron junk. Some users have reported that operating at 10 or 15 khz single helps with better IDing of non-ferrous junk like aluminum can slaw. This is a great quote and pretty much sums it up.

Andy is the FIRST ONE to tell you to not use other people's settings unless you know what the settings do. I know this because I teach detector boot camp instructional sessions with him. His book takes you through all the settings, what they do and why they do it. Provided you take the time to read the book thoroughly he arms you with the requisite knowledge you need to understand the custom setups people volunteered to include in his book (rather than keep them hidden like cold war secrets). It is up to the reader to choose to not just blindly go and set up their machine with settings they do not understand. For this reason, I see no reason to disagree with including the myriad of custom setups (including my contribution) because knowledge is power and you may actually learn something from the description of why people set their machines up in the manner they did. No harm as long as you apply them with your brain turned on.

Awesome. Wish I had the Tice button book. That looks like a great reference site, Dan. Is that the http link in the pic (e.g., relicman.com)?

Right, so if you can't afford Apex, stick with arguably the best single frequency detector in the world for less tha $400, Simplex. However, for those who know the advantage of what selectable single frequency brings to the table, you can't get it for less than Apex anywhere, period. Simultaneous MF puts the cherry on top of that detector sundae and frankly even if it only makes Apex a stable salt beach detector, that is still a win. Selectable multiple single frequency is not an "on paper" improvement, it is a defacto game changer on any properly designed detector. Stick that on the old Ace and it will make a huge performance difference. No one has offered it in this price range period and even the Equinox 600 doesn't offer 20 khz. ML missed the boat by not including at least one SF mode option on Vanquish. I frankly would have been happy if Garrett simply stopped there. 20 khz is a killer relic frequency. But they went all in on MF too. We'll see how Garrett's MF/Salt MF turns out. But it has nothing to do with "how many frequencies are actually being used" (it appears that Equinox only uses two frequencies in many of its MF modes, possibly 3 in beach mode) but how they sample and post-process the target signal. Jury is still out for Garrett in this regard. Regardless, I think people are sleeping on Garrett if they focus on MF and ignore what Garrett has done to bring multiple selectable single frequency in at this price point. This is really just a nunner in the weeds feature to me. I guess as long as it doesn't sear my eyeballs off like the original Equinox 600 implementation, I'm fine with on/off or always on, frankly. It actually has 8 levels of Iron Volume. Download the Apex brochure where this info is buried from the Apex page or see the screenshot below. BTW Garrett appears to be obsessed with 8's. 8 iron disc pixel segments, 8 levels of iron volume, 8 channels for each single and MF mode (that's 48 total channels which should help on EMI), 8 levels of sensitivity... To me this is the biggest disappointment of Simplex. For whatever reason, AM performs terribly in my test garden. The other modes (except for the original Park (now Park 2)) perform just fine. None of my test garden targets are exceptionally deep, they are mainly there for ear training and comparison, not for extreme on the edge performance testing at depth. They consist of various typical coin denominations and smaller brass and lead relic targets with some mixed target simulated "spills", vertcally oriented coins and ferrous/non-ferrous junk mixed in. Relic mode is by far the best overall, followed by beach and Park 1. AM just has no intensity whatsoever compared to the disc modes and GB and threshold adjustment do not help. It is either severely flawed or poorly implemented or is not working on my detector. Weird. The audio tone options including mixed VCO on Simplex are excellent. I wish the intensity of Vanquish banging on a high conductor were there too, but I will take target strength modulation (which is typically poorly implemented on Equinox and Vanquish) with VCO if forced to choose (more like Deus). Yes, the Vanquish and Simplex have limited variable recovery speed which is a plus. I suspect Apex recovery speed to be acceptable but uniform across the board. Possibly some delta between the two MF modes and/or between MF and the single frequency options (due to less processing load), but this is a big unknown I put in my Apex Pros/Cons rackout here. Same here.

You are right, Jeff. I suspect there is nothing there regarding recovery speed adjustments or tone adjustments. The "modes" are just prepackaged discrimination patterns and perhaps (but not likely) have different 5-tone breakpoints. I suspect recovery speed is fixed across the board unless there is some delta between the two MF modes and/or between MF and the single frequency modes. I guess we have to keep reminding ourselves this an Ace not an AT series detector, so hopefully these enhancements will be addressed in a future higher end Garret offering.

In the end, the fact is that with a Garrett machine we are likely guaranteed a plethora of coil choices relatively soon after launch both from Garrett and third parties which renders the stock coil debate somewhat moot. We are not stuck in the annoying Minelab walled garden of 3 coil choices that are chipped to preclude 3rd party coil innovation.

Luke - no problem. I would say the simplest thing is to just go with the F2 default settings and see how it goes. F2 default is 6 across the board for all modes which is like FE = 6 or 8 which seems perhaps a tad high. I might try F2 = 5 as a fine middle of the road starting point. There really is no magic bullet for a junky site, frankly. If you have thick junk or a bed of nails situation, you can try a smaller coil or lower sensitivity to desensitize the coil to big iron and try to pick out some shallower keepers that are otherwise masked by the junk. Good luck.

In general, in rough terms you can judge coil depth performance of a DD elliptical coil by it's width (the length contributes little to depth performance, mainly just provides additional swing coverage) and say that your coil depth would approximate that of a round coil of equivalent diameter, perhaps a little better. So you would expect the depth performance of the viper to probably be akin to the 6 inch round of the Equinox (cheated upwards to give the Viper the benefit of the doubt on performance). So if you are familiar with the 6" coil depth performance on the Equinox vs. the 11" coil, you have your answer. The delta in depth performance is probably a 2 or 3 inches depending on all the other variables such as ground mineralization, moisture content, target type/compensation, target shape, and target orientation. Bottom line is that you take some tangible depth penalty with the viper vs. an 11" round DD. The detectorist has to determine for themselves whether that fact actually matters for their detecting objectives.

So far Garrett seems to have this well thought out, so I am hopeful they thought of SW updating. Touting that capability can be a double-edged sword. Some might balk at the perceived complexity of a SW update having lived AT and Ace all their lives, others might have the mistaken impression that the Apex is a beta product, while most experienced detectorists especially those who bought into the MX Sport hype (yeah, I did that) will realize the benefit of having a DIY software update capability for a new detector debuting new manufacturer tech and capabilities. No one gets it exactly right on the first release. Equinox was the best launch ready release I've seen so far and Nokta compensates through frequent, relevant updates and bug fixes. Hopefully, Garrett has been taking notes. Now that the cat's out of the bag, Garrett needs to get their legion of paid You Tube "influencers" out there running the Apex through its paces so we can see how it is doing in the field. I will take heavily edited field video over no field video at this point. Then we can see what the quirks might be

If you mean a lot more than Apex, then I fundamentally disagree with this statement. If you mean a lot more than it's 60% less price tag, I guess I would have to agree with that. I think the 60% premium you pay for Apex over Simplex comes down to the fact that you are stuck at 12 khz for the Simplex but have 4 frequency choices for the Apex. That is huge (even if you consider the Simplex waterproof housing) and I am not even including Multi F in this equation which makes Apex (on paper at least) a more capable salt beach/wading machine than Simplex. I was hoping that Nokta would do multiple selectable frequencies in Simplex but that would defeat what Simplex is supposed to be and would undercut the Nokta Multi Kruzer and Anfibio offerings. As it turns out, Garrett has eclipsed the Vanquish (on paper at least) with multiple selectable single frequencies, ground balance, true weatherproof housing and has introduced the least expensive selectable frequency machine in the marketplace, period. The Racer - again a single frequency machine. Yes, real world performance will reveal if this is a paper tiger or a real competitive machine and I completely agree with you that the "stock" coil offered is a disappointment for all around performance. My main concern is depth at a 5" DD width. That is like walking around with a hockey puck but with good ground coverage. Really needed an 8" width minimum for a general purpose stock coil. Something like they offered on the Vanquish 540 which is a really nice gp form factor. P.S. Maybe this development will spur ML to issue a software update to Vanquish to fix the GB issue and offer at least one single frequency mode to the Vanquish.

This is a common misconception due to Minelab's confusing and dumbed down peudo tech graphical marketing information on Equinox. As a result people have been misled to think that the single frequency settings on Equinox (5, 10, 15, 20, 40 khz) also comprise the components of the Multifrequency mode spectrums. Bottom line, based on the best we can tell by third party spectrum analysis, is that they really don't but we also don't really know for sure if there is a 40 khz component in the multi F spectrums of Equinox. There are probably components around 40 khz or even higher [The radio frequency specification for Equinox and Vanquish actually state 5 - 143 khz (!) as published in the requisite consumer safety brochure included with the Vanquish]. The only thing we can say for certain is that the MF profiles for the modes common to the Equinox 600 and 800 is that they are the same. Yes the Park and FIeld "2" modes are apparently biased to higher frequencies. But it is a misnomer to say the 600 has 40 khz just because it is in the MF spectrum. We don't really know. Also, there are circumstances where 20 and 40 khz single frequency would be beneficial over MF. Conclusion: The Apex has 20 khz single frequency and the Equinox 600 does not, so advantage to Apex in this regard. Whether the Apex beats out the Equinox 600 overall, well that is TBD based on yet to be observed real world testing but the 600 certainly looks like the winner on paper. So bottom line, Cal, I agree with you that it is probably 600 winning all day long because even with the 20 khz the Apex possesses, the Equinox 600 is fully waterproof, has 6 MF modes vs. 2 for the Apex, has adjustable recovery speed, has adjustable iron bias, has multiple tone options including 50 tone/plus threshold tone, and more flexible wireless audio options. And, bottom line, we don't know how good the Apex MF implementation really is yet. Sorry for being technically pedantic on this "600 has 40 khz in multi" thing, but I really blame ML for putting that junk info out in the first place on their stupid graphic conflating the single frequency settings with Multi IQ.

Actually prefer the Apex in this regard. Unlike the Vanquish and the Equinox for that matter which make you step through every mode in sequence, the Apex gives you +/- buttons to let you step through the modes in either direction so you are never more than two clicks away from zero mode. Yes a dedicated AM/Zero mode button would be nice, but I plan on probably staying put in Zero mode most of the time anyway (and possibly setting up my "Custom" slot as zero mode too but with a specific frequency - if that is possible) which, unlike the Vanquish, I can do without having to set up notches on the low end to drown out ground noise due to the maddening fixed ground balance setup of the V. Remember, the key on Apex is not the modes which are just different discrimination patterns but whether you are in Multi/Multi Salt or single frequency. Really need to see what hoops you have to jump through to change frequency and MF modes before I render a final verdict on menu/display ergonomics. Looks like the MF/operating frequency display is overridden by Target ID. That might be TAD confusing if you are in single frequency mode even with that little FREQ kHz off to the side. We'll have to see how they implemented it.

Hybrid audio is not mixed mode audio in the traditional sense of "all metal/discriminated mode" audio. That is because APEX, unlike the AT Max, does not have a true threshold based All Metal mode - just zero mode (no disc/no notch) and the audio is simply proportional modulation on what are considered by the APEX to be deeper targets. Not sure if they are implementing the iron tone similar to how they do "tone roll" on the AT series where you get the high false tone but iron grunts when rolling off the edges of a falsing ferrous or mixed ferrous target like a bottlecap. That would be nice.

Agree that they have the electronics to add the missing software features to turn it into an AT (true all metal mode, threshold, etc.) but they need to make the enclosure waterproof and it is not clear how "waterproof ready" their enclosure design is in the Apex at this point. As a minimum, I would suspect Garrett would go with their tried and true (but clunky) waterproof connector which I personally hate because it has to be aligned just right or you risk damage to the internal mating pin. Unless they go with something like the Equinox solution that can sort of accommodate a normal mini-plug, that will require a significant redesign of the APEX enclosure to accommodate a waterproof, sealed jack and the larger diameter needed to accomodate the seals.

Apex should be rechargeable on the fly like the Equinox and others, but I have never seen fit to add an external to my Equinox as it just adds weight. I could maybe see doing it if I have a balance issue with the detector, but adding the weight defeats the purpose of having a light weight machine. I have done trips where I have detected for several days straight and have never run out of battery on the Equinox during any single day of dawn to dusk hunting and always had an opportunity to put it back on the charger in the evenings (I have a large solar chargeable power bank that I can keep in my truck charging up all day off solar, if necessary, while I am out swinging - so even if it is a backwoods car trip I am set...a multi-day backpacking trip would be a different matter). RNB makes a nice little attachable external charge bank module that secures beneath the armrest on the Equinox, but it is not rain proof and, again, IMO unceessarily adds weight. But if RNB made something for the Equinox I can see them also making something for the Apex as it will be a smash big seller for Garrett and that will give folks a peace of mind external pack option.

To the OP - All the links to the detailed informational posts in regard to how F2 relates to FE that Tom summarizes above are consolidated in the post linked in my reply to you. Not going to re-hash it all here again. There is a treasure trove of information about it if you take the time to click through it and Steve H. has also put links in his comprehensive Equinox consolidated information thread at the top of Equinox forum. Dig in.