Digalicious

Thanks for the comparison video Capp. Much of benefit of the newer detectors, are things like weight, better shafts, waterproofing, rechargeable internal batteries, wireless features, etc. However, the modern SMF detectors are also packed full of settings and features to optimize performance for ground conditions, EMI, and specific targets. Another advantage I find with the modern SMF detectors, is superior target identification on all types of targets. So much so, that I would only go back to SF if I absolutely had to. Plus, I notice that superior target identification, even though my hunting grounds are low mineralization. In mid to high mineralization, the superiority of SMF for depth and target identification, would be even more noticeable. Some observations about your comparisons: It would have been helpful if you showed your modes and settings. Yes, you mentioned that the Legend was using presets, but presets on the modern SMF detectors may not be ideal for all types of tests. For example, the preset iron bias (iron filter on the Legend) is set very high. No hunter trying to unmask in iron, would ever use that high of an IB, because iron unmasking performance would be terrible. I, and everyone else I know that uses a modern SMF detector to unmask in iron, uses a very low iron bias, and a high weighted SMF mode. I could be wrong, but when you were doing the iron unmasking test, I'm thinking you were probably in a preset (default) lower weighted SMF mode, and using the very high default iron bias. For your recovery speed test, did you have the Legend at the default of around 5? If so, it was separating very fast, but the Legend and other modern SMF can separate even faster than their default recovery speed setting, and can do so with a "normal" swing speed. In your depth test, you called 13 1/2" using the Whites Silver Eagle. Maybe it's my ears, but calling that at 13 1/2" seems like quite a stretch. In depth testing a ferrous object, the IB will cause a depth difference on the deep ferrous objects if the IB is set high (which I think you have it set high). Other depth factors would include the SMF mode being used, as well as what the audio gain was set at. The recovery speed has a huge impact on depth, as of course does the sensitivity level. Was the sensitivity at 25 on your Legend? I mean, it could very well be, but for that size of coil, while being in a residential area with EMI, the Legend seemed too quiet if the sensitivity was at 25. I also find that where SMF really shines, is when testing is done with targets in the ground, along with the appropriate SMF mode and other settings. More specifically, even in my very mild ground, I get a little more depth using SMF, but a heck of a lot better target ID accuracy, when compared to SF. Considering all of the above, I would prefer not to use a SF detector again, let alone an older SF detector. Granted I did purchase two older SF detectors to satisfy my nostalgic thirst, but the nostalgic thirst quenching was short lived, and both those detectors went into the closet 🙂

Hi Kac. I'm aware of the coil techniques that are used to illicit an iron tone. However, my question relates to the situation in which the iron bias is deliberately set so low, that some iron won't give an iron tone, no matter the coil technique that is utilized.

"Single determination". That could very well be the answer I was looking for. More specifically, features like Ferrocheck can have better iron identification than something like TID, because such a feature displays more of the dualistic characteristics of the signal.

Ah yes Chase, that F/NF display is definitely more analogous to the Legend's Ferrocheck. Thanks for that, because I didn't even know that existed on the D2. I still don't understand how that type of feature can sometimes identify true iron falsing, better than tone and ID can. It's as though that type of feature is utilizing the raw data, before the processing of tone and ID occurs. Is that why it can be more accurate? Put another way, under the scenario I presented, why doesn't the tone and ID always match what that type of feature shows?

Hello. In the following, I'm referring to iron falsing as, "When a detector produces a good nonferrous tone and a good nonferrous ID on a ferrous object". I mention that, because whenever I've talked about iron falsing on other venues, a few people always reply with, "I can identify iron by the iron grunt", to which I reply, "Well then, that's not iron falsing!" 😁 Anyway, I use a Legend and often hunt in iron infested sites. I use a high weighted SMF mode, but most importantly, I lower my iron bias to the point that iron falsing begins to occur. That way, I know I'm getting the best iron unmasking ability that my detector can provide. The Legend's Ferrocheck identifies and shows the ferrous and nonferrous content of what's under the coil, and it does so regardless of where settings such as tone breaks or discrimination is set. What I've noticed however, is that Ferrocheck often identifies iron falsing better than ID and tones. For example, when I instigate iron falsing, I'll often get a good nonferrous tone and ID on a nail, but Ferrocheck is clearly, and correctly, identifying the nail as ferrous. To me, it's an invaluable feature when hunting in iron. Now, I'm fairly certain that the Manticore's 2D screen, and the D2's X/Y screen has that same ability to identify iron falsing, but how the heck are those features able to do that, when ID and tone cannot?

There's only one new detector I want, and here's how it can be achieved: The manufacturers lock all their engineers into a room, lock the door, and tell them they can't leave until they've come up with a detector that can differentiate between aluminum and gold 😁 What you say Carl?

It is for that exact reason, that I learned to live with SMF / EMI, instead of switching to a SF with notably less target ID accuracy. Was that low iron bias deliberate for some reason, or do you normally run the IB as high as necessary to avoid iron falsing?

The link works fine for me. Maybe try another browser HardPack.

Ha ha. To clarify though: The price hike is just on the Legend, and it's a $50 US hike. A lot of Legend users were speculating a price hike on the Legend for a long time. Reason being, it was priced abnormally low for what it is. I was expecting the hike to be $100. I suppose the addition of the Legend's baby brothers had something to do with it as well. More specifically, not enough of a price gap between the Double Score and the Legend, and the Double Score was already priced too low to lower it any further.

Yes Rick, there are scenarios in which I rely on audio and not TID. For example, using TID is far more productive than audio in the coin shooter example I gave. But, when I'm trying to unmask nonferrous targets from iron, I might look at the TID for curiosity sake, but the TID doesn't determine my dig/no dig decision. I dig anything that gives a nonferrous tone, and therefore, the TID is irrelevant in that scenario.

Yes, due to variations in depth, orientation, type, size, etc, then gold jewelry can TID all over the nonferrous range, and have various different tonal nuances. However, all of that applies to aluminum trash as well. When hunting for gold jewelry both TID and tones are equally unreliable IMO. In other words, I sure don't see any gold jewelry hunters ignoring massive amounts of nonferrous targets while saying, "That sounds like a pulltab and not gold jewelry, so I'm not digging it". OR, "That sounds like foil and not like gold jewelry, so I'm not digging it". Do you do that?

Ok. So, what exactly do you disagree with in gold ring example?

None of that really had anything to do with my point 🙂 I gave two examples to justify my point. One example is the coin cherry picker, and the other is the gold ring hunter. Is there something you disagree with in the examples I gave? Also, keep in mind that I'm not referring to tone bin pitch or frequency differences, but rather tone quality and consistency, such as sharpness, one or two way hits, repeatable when rotating, etc.

I'm kind of the exact opposite. For example, a piece of foil or a pull tab often has a clean, solid, and repeatable tone, just like most high conductor coins do. In other words, if a hunter is looking for high conductor coins and digging based on tone quality alone, they would be digging a lot of aluminum trash. However, the TID easily distinguishes between most aluminum trash and most high conductor coins. So, the TID hunter would dig a lot less aluminum trash, which would also equate to digging a lot more high conductor coins. A lot of gold ring hunters just dig everything nonferrous, so tone and ID doesn't even matter. But a lot of gold ring hunters will also ignore the small foil range and/or the high conductor range. That's much easier, and far more efficient to do using TID, than it is using tone quality.

I hope it's a detector that can distinguish between aluminum trash and gold jewelry! I know, I know. I'm dreaming 🙂

Hi Guinea. Doing something as you suggested, would likely cause profit to plummet. Profit is made by new detector models, and selling coils that typically won't work on the previous models. Ditto on Nokta changing the industry. I'm looking forward to see what they come up with for their next flagship detector.

It's interesting to me as well. In all my urban sites, the higher the SF, the more EMI mitigation I get.

HardPack, When the coil is sweeping on the ground, the EMI noise shouldn't be heard. Targets should still be able to come through ok.

I'm in Canada, and I also know how well 40 khz, or a high weighted SMF mode works on steel core coins 🙂 Would 74 khz be better? My guess would be "probably not". Reason being, even 20 khz works pretty well on those coins as well. Given that, it's hard to imagine how going much over 40 khz would make a notable difference on those coins, but I could be completely wrong. Something else to consider, is the possible depth loss with an extremely high frequency.

I started using SMF detectors about 2 years ago. I was taken aback at how suspectable SMF is to EMI, compared to SF. For example, in high EMI, any SMF mode would produce massive noise, accompanied by a constantly fluctuating TID. Yet, I switch to a SF mode, and the detector is dead quiet. With SMF transmitting and receiving multiple frequencies, it's considered "broadband". As such, it's much more of an open door to EMI. But, I think it goes beyond that. For example, if I'm at a high EMI site, the detector is very noisy regardless of whether I use a low or high weighted SMF mode. If I use a high weighted SMF mode that is weighted around 30 to 40 khz, the noise is massive, yet if I switch to 20 or 40 khz, the noise is completely gone. I would think that the EMI noise level should be similar in a high weighted SMF mode, compared to 20 or 40 khz, but the noise level difference is night and day. That leads me to believe that SMF's eye opening susceptibility to EMI, is more complicated than "broadband vs narrowband"

I can't. My pinpointer works great, but it doesn't have a retune function lol. I first put the tip of the pointer at the center bottom of the hole, if it beeps, I dig down a little further. If it doesn't beep, I scan the side wall with the side of the pointer, then hone on it with the tip. In either instance, if I dig a further inch toward the target and the pointer's strength doesn't increase, then I know it's something large, like a can for example.

Do you do that for a PI pinpointer, VLF, or both? I mean, I have used a PI pinpointer, and the depth was so superior to VLF, that I could see using the retune method to hone in better. But a low depth VLF? If the target is off to the side of the shaft, then I just angle the tip to hone in on the target.

Yes, it's normal for a retune button. Kind of like the effects of ground balancing over a nonferrous target. I posted it in case someone didn't know about the effect, and accidently hit that button when they were near the target, and then wondered why they lost depth. Granted, it would reset once the pinpointer was turned off and on. But, I've come across quite a few people (myself included), in which on many sites, target retrieval occurs in such quick succession, that we just leave the pinpointer on, and hold it in our hand along with the hand trowel. With them 180 degrees apart of course 🙂 My Nokta pointer has 2 buttons on top, so I never accidently press a button. Interestingly enough though, it doesn't have a retune function.

If the shaft button is quickly pressed once (a retune), while the shaft is detecting a nonferrous target, then major depth loss occurs on all nonferrous targets, because the pinpointer tunes out some, to all of the nonferrous signals. That depth loss remains until the pinpointer is retuned to the air, or it's turned off and on. The same depth loss would occur if the pinpointer is retuned to the ground, and there is nonferrous target in its detection field. A demonstration of this depth loss is shown in the following video from "Gigmaster". The first part of the video just shows the features and settings. You can skip all that if you want, and go right to 8:38 where the effect is demonstrated:

Sounds like a site to use a low weighted SMF to unmask coins from the nonferrous trash, as well as a high weighted SMF mode to unmask coins from the ferrous trash.