How Many Small Miners Are There?

[auendave]

Risky business. Let's say a guy is doing that, just refiling at county every 90 days. I become aware of this. So I go in and quietly stake the ground just before the 90 days runs out, except I go straight to BLM and file with them also. If guy waits until the 90 day mark and refiles at county level, the chain to perfecting the claim breaks and they are now my claims.

seems to me that if you file the claims with the county and then go to the blm and file before the 90 days are up you would not become the owner of the claims after the previous claim owners 90 days are up because your claim is invalid because you over filed his, you would still have to beat him to filing the papers after the 90 days are up.

[jasong]

The question I have with that method is staking before the 90 days is up requires you to make a discovery first. How do you make that discovery on a valid claim without comitting mineral trespass?

 

I guess you could make a discovery on an adjacent portion of unclaimed land (assuming there was one) and make your borders enclose part of the other person's claim. With a placer claim I guess you could show in court that the deposit was easily inferred to be located on the other claimaint's land. With a lode it might not fly though, especially if your discovery had no actual exposed veins.

[Steve Herschbach]

Truth is all the government cares about is the paper chain and no breaks in it. There is no discovery on nearly all the claims filed by the major mining companies.

[nvchris]

seems to me that if you file the claims with the county and then go to the blm and file before the 90 days are up you would not become the owner of the claims after the previous claim owners 90 days are up because your claim is invalid because you over filed his, you would still have to beat him to filing the papers after the 90 days are up.

That part of the problem, nothing prevents the locater from relocating or amending the location notice on the 83'ed (or any) day prior. 

[jasong]

Yeah, I had a talk with Ken Loda at the Winnemucca BLM about that exact thing. I saw a bunch of surveyor kids out there just staking claim after claim and I went up and talked to them. They said they were contracting for an unnamed company and were surveyors (not geologists). I never once saw them do any kind of prospecting or make any sorts of discoveries, just hammer stake after stake in grids and wire wrap on their claim papers.

 

So I told Ken that I doubted these were valid claims and he said it didn't matter. But the claims adjudicators in BLM HQ in Denver tell a completely different story and told me plainly that a claim without a valid disocovery is not a valid claim and they would require discovery proof if they had the funding to enforce it, otherwise it's a matter for civil court. They provided me with a number of different cases which I can't remember now since it was years ago.

 

Anyways, from what I can tell, those blanket claims by the huge mining corps COULD technically be renderred BS by the courts if a guy had the time and money to fight them, but they have more lawyers than we have small miners probably.

 

Also, the BLM does occasionally devalidate parts of claims due to not being "mineral in character". Via prudent man rule, etc. They require some sort of discovery or prospecting to show it is. It'd be hard for those companies to do that on every one of their thousands of claims. The BLM just doesn't have the funding to enforce it, especially against companies with lots of lawyers that might render expensive lawsuits against the BLM.

[Clay Diggins]

seems to me that if you file the claims with the county and then go to the blm and file before the 90 days are up you would not become the owner of the claims after the previous claim owners 90 days are up because your claim is invalid because you over filed his, you would still have to beat him to filing the papers after the 90 days are up.

 

Thanks for that bit of wisdom Dave. You are of course right. Overclaiming someone in hopes that their claim will drop is claim jumping plain and simple. Overclaims don't become valid just because there is no longer a senior claimant.

 

We've found several ways to deal with claims mongers. The first and most effective way is to educate potential claims buyers to the inherent problems and pitfalls involved in buying a claim. With a little education about the process and exactly what you are getting when someone quitclaims their claim interest most buyers wise up to the crooks pretty quick. Once the money dries up claims mongers move on to more productive scams.

 

Most of these claims mongers are looking for an easy mark and are lazy about keeping their "claims". You can take advantage of that.

 

Often these 90 day recordings are not exactly sequential. Days often exist between mining locations expiring for lack of a FLPMA filing with the BLM. Watch for those gaps to come up and have a plan to discover and record a location notice before the claims monger gets the new recording into the county.

 

One usually successful tactic is to overclaim and sue the senior claimant, within 30 days of location, to challenge the validity of their claim. If you time your action right the claims monger is forced into paying the BLM fees and responding to a suit in short order. Make sure you do discovery work and have uninterested witnesses to all your staking and discovery work. Pictures and witnesses trump unprepared claims mongers in court. In most cases the claims monger never shows up for the hearing. They are looking for easy money, not exposure of their methods on the record.

 

Hint: You can get these suits shortlisted for a hearing in most state courts because they involve property rights. You usually have to note that status on your complaint. Requirements vary by state.

 

Probably the most effective method to shut down bad claiming practices is for miners to form a small local mining district. Make a rule that all claims in the district have to prove their discovery work to the district before the claim can be valid. Mining districts can't change State or Federal laws but they can add more regulation than exists at the State or Federal level. I'm a big supporter of the concept that miners should settle miner disputes among themselves and claims mongers are near the top of my miners vs miners list.

 

Hint: "Best practice" mining for a small district can be established within the bylaws and regulations of the mining district. The surface management agency can't produce an expert on best practice mining within your district but you may be able to. You can control the nature and quality of mining within your district if you keep it small and relevant to the deposit type and terrain. Smart self regulation works.

[Steve Herschbach]

seems to me that if you file the claims with the county and then go to the blm and file before the 90 days are up you would not become the owner of the claims after the previous claim owners 90 days are up because your claim is invalid because you over filed his, you would still have to beat him to filing the papers after the 90 days are up.

Claim filing establishes an order of precedence on the way to "perfecting" the claim. The first person to properly complete the process gets the claim. We are talking federal claims here. A person who never files with the Feds cannot possibly have completed the process required for having a federal mining claim. People rotating at the county level are knowingly trying to circumvent the process in order to not pay the BLM filing fees.

BLM will not invalidate a claim simply because it is filed over another. They simply monitor the paper trail but disputes are left up to the court. Do you think any federal person adjudicating the issue will back the guy rotating at county level over the person who has properly gone through the process of obtaining a federal mining claim? I think not. The people doing it know what they are doing, we know what they are doing, and any any judge will see what they are doing. There is no way any judge is going to legitimize the concept that you can have a federal mining claim in perpetuity while never ever filing with BLM.

I am however going to actually pay an attorney if need be to get legal backing for what is admittedly just an opinion on my part.

[LipCa]

Good question jasong.

 

How do you claim land that is already claimed another person without causing a "cloud" on their claim?

 

If someone filed over me, I would demand that they provide me with a Quit Claim of their interest.  They have "clouded my Title"!

 

I guess in your case, Steve, you take the position that they are not going to file with the BLM?

[Steve Herschbach]

I am taking the position that there is already proof they have not filed with BLM and simply keep refiling at the county recorder level. I am not talking about a guy that is following the rules but those trying to circumvent them. If you truly want the ground and truly want to protect your right, why would you not file with BLM as soon as possible? What valid excuse is there to never file with BLM?

I want every claim filed to get on the books with BLM as soon as possible and on LR2000 as soon as possible. People messing with the system at the recorder level are a pain in the ass.