Have You Dug Good Targets With Negative Numbers On Manicure

[fishersari]

After a few outing of getting familiar with the mantebellum, I went to a spot that I have detect for several times with the 800. The name of the hunt on this particular spot is depth... Its the same spot as in my post of 

 I retrieved few more coins from this spot but 2 of them were in stable negative numbers with 180 degree rotations.. usually deep irons the negative numbers read is all over the place and cant pinpoint on the same location but these 2 signal are solid. Just wondering if others experienced the same thing.. or more accurately I'm looking for any data/finding/info or pattern that we can use from the iron number (-1 to -99) 

 

 

[GB_Amateur]

I'm going to get in my weekly nitpick here.  IMO the Manticore doesn't show negative numbers.  The digital readout is the conductive component only.  The ferrous component doesn't show up numerically.  Apparently that number is displayed on the Minelab FBS detectors, or at least some of them, but for some reason they left it off the Manticore.  However the 2-d screen does show it positionally in the vertical direction -- i.e. location of target trace(s).

I could be wrong on this as I know Tom Dankowski has said more than once that iron reads out on the [-99,-1] interval.  But that's not what I've experienced when I detect.  (I've only used all-metal mode, if that matters.)

I have found non-ferrous targets when getting some iron grunt (and red underline and target traces that spill into the gray) but my conclusion so far has been that the iron reading isn't from the non-ferrous target but rather either nearby iron or possibly ground imbalance.  In a couple cases I've found the iron but if I get the good (non-ferrous) target out and verify with post-recovery sweeps that there is no non-ferrous remaining I just fill the hole and move on.

I think the 2-d target trace will eventually be a big help for me, but it's going to take some experience, memorization, etc. to really extract the value from it.  Right now I'm noting it mentally but not letting it determine my dig/no decision.  Learning mode all the time for me!  At least for my audio settings (for which I've tried to imitate the Eqx 800 5-tones) I'm hearing a lot more richness/subtleties than I did with the Eqx, so that has helped me with discrimination in some cases already.

[fishersari]

10 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I'm going to get in my weekly nitpick here.  IMO the Manticore doesn't show negative numbers.  The digital readout is the conductive component only.  The ferrous component doesn't show up numerically.  Apparently that number is displayed on the Minelab FBS detectors, or at least some of them, but for some reason they left it off the Manticore.  However the 2-d screen does show it positionally in the vertical direction -- i.e. location of target trace(s).

I could be wrong on this as I know Tom Dankowski has said more than once that iron reads out on the [-99,-1] interval.  But that's not what I've experienced when I detect.  (I've only used all-metal mode, if that matters.)

 

Oh man.. if you are right then i need to relearn the ferrous stuff again on manticore. When we swing over a nail or iron (on air test) what's the numbers mean though? 

10 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I think the 2-d target trace will eventually be a big help for me, but it's going to take some experience, memorization, etc. to really extract the value from it. 

I agree but I think there are too many patterns on the 2d screen depending on what other 'junk' and/or different depth  with the desired target. I tried to take mental note of 4 traces of 0, 90, 180 and 270 off a target that I think its iffy and worth to investigate. Then I thought for this to work I have to start with 0 degree parallel with true north every time lol.. so I ditched the plan. Its faster just to dig it out but I notice some 'behavior' pattern on the 2d screen like if the desired target close to ferrous, very deep iron.. its just i dont trust the 2d screen yet...

Do you think if some one fully master the 2d trace, he/she can run the manticore with 0-0 ferrous limit and just discriminate using the trace? lol

[GB_Amateur]

1 minute ago, fishersari said:

When we swing over a nail or iron (on air test) what's the numbers mean though?

A nail (and other iron targets) has both ferrous and conductive signal components.  Both are plotted on the screen but only the conductive part is shown in the digital readout (aka VDI) number.

BTW, I didn't mean to imply that when I get a mixed ferrous+conductive tone and trace that it's always a desirable target.  More often than not the mixed signal turns out to be a nail.  There are multiple tricks to get a better handle on which is occurring and I expect the target trace pattern will join that bag of tricks.

I agree that sometimes more time is wasted investigating a target prior to digging than just simply digging it and accepting that this often results in an unwanted target.  However, in learning mode I want to experience every clue I can get so in the future I can go the other direction and save digging time by careful, knowledgeable investigation.

[fishersari]

7 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

A nail (and other iron targets) has both ferrous and conductive signal components.  Both are plotted on the screen but only the conductive part is shown in the digital readout (aka VDI) number.

oh the fe-co value? got it

 

[Dug D]

My most interesting situation along these lines was a high 60s ID a higher tone and a red line ? I was confused and could not see how higher tone and red line can happen at the same time.  It sounded like a coin so I dug it, a clad dime about 5 inches laying flat in a trashy park. The most annoying part was swinging the filled in hole and getting no  signal Iron or otherwise.  I moved on and just noted to trust the tone more that the red line. (for now anyway) I'm still way behind on Manticore ability's compared to the Nox. 

[fishersari]

9 hours ago, Dug D said:

My most interesting situation along these lines was a high 60s ID a higher tone and a red line ? I was confused and could not see how higher tone and red line can happen at the same time

Happen to me a lot too.. maybe its like @GB_Amateur explained.. the '60's was the co component and the red line maybe for the fe component indicator with no numerical display (including nearby iron or possibly ground imbalance)   .. that's maybe why there is no iron signal after target retrieved.. I don't know lol I'm guessing

[Mike K]

There was a post on by Tom on his site that he said something like if the target is very deep almost out of range that a silver dime might normally read 81-83 and if one is that deep a quirk the machine will give you a minus 81-83....

[okara gold]

I think more attention to the audio should always be in the equation. VDI is “fun” for shallow repeatable targets, but not for deep, on the edge of detection ID’s. 

[Dug D]

On 4/18/2023 at 10:43 PM, Dug D said:

My most interesting situation along these lines was a high 60s ID a higher tone and a red line ? I was confused and could not see how higher tone and red line can happen at the same time.  It sounded like a coin so I dug it, a clad dime about 5 inches laying flat in a trashy park. The most annoying part was swinging the filled in hole and getting no  signal Iron or otherwise.  I moved on and just noted to trust the tone more that the red line. (for now anyway) I'm still way behind on Manticore ability's compared to the Nox. 

I am pretty sure I have sorted some of this out. 

when in all metal the detector provides a red line to indicate iron, that red line seems to last for "a while" the exact time I didn't figure out. 

the VID number lasts until you cross a target with a different VDI

the tone has no delay and changes as soon as you cross a new target ID

(keeping in mind that tone ID and VID seem to operate on different thresholds of signal strength for them to register) 

the two D screen has a fading display

I have not had the time to confirm that all of these are independent of each other, but they might be. 

If what I have said above is somewhat correct it explains how a red line lingers while getting a high tone several times that turns out to be a dime, presuming that anywhere during the swing a ferrous object is detected creating the red line that lingers. (my average swing could go beyond the edges of a plug)

To take this a little farther its clear the Manticore was basically designed to run in discrimination mode more than in all metal all the time.  This situation does not really occur in discrimination mode.

I still have to spend more time, but while figuring this much out I did dig a rosi and wheat in a newer park the has only given up a couple wheats in the last few years. 

For the way I hunt it would be nice to reduce the red line lingering time to about a half second or less, it becomes confusing seeing the red line so much of the time in a trashy  park while running in all metal.

I may not have enough time in to reach any conclusions so if anyone's experience is different feel free to clarify. 

thanks