Chase Goldman

I guess White’s technically broke the selectable SF or SMF mold by providing the capability to select SMF or the individual SMF frequencies in its Spectra series detectors. But combined SF/SMF (and even multiple selectable single frequency) was otherwise scarce until ML transformed the detector landscape in 2018 by providing the choice of SMF/SF and relative affordability in one package. Garrett’s Apex made combined SMF/SF even more affordable than the Nox 600, though it’s SMF capability lagged Nox and the SMF-only Vanquish in performance. Following on the heels of XP’s relatively expensive but very capable SF/SMF offering, Nokta confirmed you can have the combined SMF/SF feature set and top notch SMF performance and submergibility at an Apex price point! ML answered the D2’s powerful SMF with Manticore, and now Quest is jumping in with what appears on to be a capable SMF/SF machine with some twists (a higher top end SF setting at 60 khz and SMF with an 80 kHz top end, and features utilizing the V60/80’s Gyro sensor). So now that combined SMF/SF is somewhat commonplace, the only driver for providing a selectable single frequency detector without SMF, would be to fill a value/price market segment gap, provide a unique capability not possible with SMF and/or to attract those who have not bought into nor are willing to pay extra for SMF, for whatever reason. Other than the odd choice of 8khz SF beach mode, there is nothing apparent that ML is trying “sell” regarding the Xterra in terms of special performance or why SF without a combined SMF feature set should be seriously considered by detectorists. ML must just recognize there is a demand for a selectable single frequency detector that has the latest and greatest in the bells and whistles department but without the desire to also have SMF.

Minelab didn't even believe it themselves even before Xterra Pro, otherwise why did they include SF on the Nox? The whole SMF vs SF debate is kind of ridiculous. We don't have to chose one or the other anymore as Nox, Apex, D2, Legend, Manticore, and the forthcoming Quest V60/V80 all have multiple selectable single frequency as a feature along side Simultaneous MF.

Bob, thanks for another killer outing. You were indeed the silver slayer. No silver for me this time out, but some killer and unusual finds nevertheless. Still doing some research on some of my finds and will post separately.

If it does come in in a price targeted between the Simplex ($279 US) and the Legend($499 US), it will be competitive. The Legend has selectable single frequency too and high recovery (which is why the Anfibios and Impacts are not long for this world despite some of their advanced filtering), so if ML overshoots Legend in price, then I see no point in this (except for the reason I described below). If you already have a 900, not sure what this brings to the table on dry sand as you can always go to SF on the Nox and this should have similar behavior to a Nox in SF. However, I do see one advantage in wet salt sand and seawater with the X-terra Pro. If ML is indeed using the square wave demod scheme mentioned by Carl above to achieve salt balance from SF 8khz Beach Mode vice being locked in Multi-IQ in Beach mode like the Nox, it might provide an advantage in severe EMI situations, which is something I know challenges you on your beaches, Nuke Em.

Gotcha, thanks. Yep, you are correct. The in-house engineering is primarily to develop their IP, the algorithms and they basically project manage the integration of the platform whose electronic, power, and mechanical design and manufacturing is outsourced to subs.

Don't recall anyone in this thread saying ML made their own chipset. If you referring to my post, I said that ML WiStream (I previously erroneously misidentifed it as WiMax and corrected that) proprietary wireless audio didn't need to be licensed from Qualcomm like APTX (i.e., the Codec family). Despite using an off the shelf chipset common to other proprietary wireless solutions from Garrett and Quest, WiStream was indeed ML's proprietary wireless audio solution (just like their detectors, which also use off the shelf chipsets) and unlike BT APTX-LL hardware which is compatible with other APTX-LL hardware across brands, is not universally compatible with other 3rd party wireless radios using the same TI chipset. In fact, in typical ML fashion, similar to their coils, they made sure their own WiStream modules were not compatible between their own detector platforms. Something Garrett and Quest do not do with their "TI PurePath" proprietary wireless audio solutions. Also, notice what PUHH said in his post, just because they have adopted a BT LE Audio compatible chipset, that doesn't mean they are using BT LE Audio and the LC3 CODEC for their detector wireless audio that would ensure that it is compatible with 3rd party BT LE Audio accessories once they start hitting the marketplace. It might be locked down by ML or utilizing a proprietary codec (doubtful, but who knows at this point). Unlike their APTX-LL implementation, ML has not explicitly mentioned BT LE Audio or LC3 codec compatibility or touted compatibility with forthcoming 3rd party or ML branded BT LE Audio accessories. We just don't know yet. Either way, it would have been nice to retain WiStream WM08 module compatibility on these new Nox's at least to bridge the gap until 3rd party BT LE Audio HW existed (if it is indeed compatible), despite the engineering challenges that approach presented as pointed out by PimentoUK. But instead of including a WM08 (or equivalent) like with the Nox 800, they force us to buy a 6" coil with the 900 whether we need it or not.

Because at the time, XP was rolling out a new beta update every month or so and those two modes are not really features. Also, they may not stick around after XP finally releases the finalized production version of the software (i.e., version 1.XX). There are a few features that are not documented, BTW such as: the hot key presses to bring up full screen TIDs (press and simultaneously hold the two right-most keys).

Thought I saw someone I recognized in that video.

Obviously Mike Hillis.

And on this site: https://treasurehuntingworld.com/2023/02/10/minelab-x-terra-pro-its-official/ They state the following: We don’t have any details on pricing for the EU/USA but the price in China is 5200 Yuan which equates approx to £630/$760. So yeah, not really competitive. We'll see what ML says at the IWA in Germany in March.

P13 and P14 are just preset "Custom" programs that XP decided to include in the update. You can see that they are based on P7 Mono (with Freq @40 khz) and P12 Beach Sensitive but with Pitch tones audio, respectfully. You can overwrite them with your own custom programs if you wish. There is nothing super special out them. HTH

Understood. The only point I was trying to make was that it's apparent ML has decided to Sunset their proprietary WiStream accessories going forward for whatever reason be it cost, packaging, memory, or...? I am sure if they really wanted to keep it alive, they could have figured out how to engineer it into their new generic/multi-platform control head/shaft form factor. But they have moved on, embraced the Nordic chipset and the outlook for home grown or third party wireless audio accessories (especially headphone receiver packs) for the Nox/M-core/Xterra Pro platforms is murky leaving users stuck for the time being or bolting on additional transmitters to a detector that already has a radio. Disappointing.

Pretty sure a 2nd WiStream radio doesn't appreciably affect price its just another chip and since WiStream is Minelab's proprietary wireless audio solution, no licensing fees like those required for APTX. Heck, they threw in a 6-inch coil I don't want or need to justify the 700 to 900 price delta (no 900 option that comes without that coil). So pretty sure appropriately pricing the Nox 700/900 was not driving removing WiMax from the newer Nox. I think they just decided to stop supporting it going forward. Anyway, if ML is indeed abandoing WiStream, would have preferred to have an LE based receiver to replace the WM08 lieu of the coil (or at least a option to purchase Problem is, for now, you're stuck with the ML phones with no 3rd party phones or receivers into which you can plug your own wired phones. ML should produce or work with a third party to provide a compatible receiver for Nox 700/900, Manticore, and now, apparently, Xterra pro.

Great tip.

Good to know. Great recoveries.

I too am interested in just what is going on with Beach mode. But if it is MF why does the XT Pro say 8 kHz? If its just Nox with only selectable single frequency, then this makes sense only if it's priced at or below Vanquish. If the Beach mode were bare bones Multi-Q (only) and the Park/Field modes only selectable single frequency, then this would be the logical replacement for the Vanquish.

I think limiting top end frequencies to 40 kHz had something to do with it. There is no other technical reason why it lacks performance there, but we know of some potential business reasons. We'll see if XP addresses it. (Though ML and Nokta appear to have no issue with a 40 khz top end). Would like to see XP responsivity like Nokta and Legend in terms of user performance feedback translating into new features, performance, and bug fixes. Interesting that Quest is putting the V80 out there with 60khz selectable single frequency and advertising 80 kHz top end in Simultaneous Hyper Q. Maybe that will put a bee in someone's bonnet. The Holy Grail of the singular "does it all best" vlf detector may turn out to be unobtainium but for business and not necessarily technical reasons. I'll shut up now.

Congrats. Got one too but only plan on using it at the beach or in mild dirt because of the hot ground feedback on the larger coil. I'm generally just using the 9" coil in the super hot stuff.

Agree. But just want to point out that the question Steve was answering was not whether Deus 2 was a good nugget detector (it's definitely not the best choice - no one can argue that) but was making a general statement as to the degree to which it's gold sensitivity lags other SMF detectors. This was in response to Simon pondering whether D2's "decreased sensitivity" explains its ability to better "penetrate" mineralized ground than Manticore. While Steve's "hair's breadth" comment taken literally may be understating how much D2 lags Nox and Legend in terms of gold sensitivity (both in Goldfield and Mono), if I look at your data (reposted below) as plotted by one of the other forum members, from a big picture perspective, the intent of Steve's original comment (and the actual point) still rings true. Namely: No one detector does it all and we are debating relative shades of gray. In other words, by zeroing in on specific performance attributes and repeating them, people come up with generalized perceptions like Deus 2's "decreased sensitivity" or Manticore not performing in hot dirt when it's really as Steve says, "a matter of degree" and, if I might add, of small degrees in the grand scheme of things. Specifically, yes D2 lags Nox and, on some of the targets, Legend but is basically in the same league from a mid-conductor sensitvity standpoint, especially with the higher mass targets. So the magnitude of the reduced gold sensitivity is not likely a contributing factor to D2 performance in hot dirt because it's of a relatively small magnitude vs. the other detectors. Also, as stated by others, your small gold sensitivity testing did not cover other small mid conductors like brass and lead, so there may be certain mid-conductive target/D2 SMF mode combinations that result in an optimal phase shift (resonance) that manifests in data showing generally increased sensitivity vs. the other detectors on targets like brass or lead while gold sensitivity lags in Gold Field. I know you were not explicitly saying that it lacked overall mid-conductive sensitivity, but somehow it started being perceived or stated that way based on some of the comments I have seen posted, like Simon's. So, my takeaways: 1) No arguments from me that D2 lags in small gold sensitivity vs. Nox and to a certain degree, Legend (i.e., "hair's breadth" taken literally is a likely understatement of the lag) but I think the data shows D2 is in the same league, if you step back and take broad view. 2) There is no evidence D2's "reduced small gold sensitivity" has anything to do with how it performs in hot dirt hood or bad though it was an interesting thought. 3) Drawing a conclusion that D2 generally lacks sensitivity to mid-conductors could be a false extrapolation of limited data in one SMF mode and one element type. 4) Steve Herschbach's Maxim that I think was contained in the now deleted post (could be wrong, he has stated elsewhere) still rings true. All of these SMF detectors (Nox, D2, Legend, M-core) have individual strengths and weaknesses vs. each of the others. No one of these detectors does it all, nor does any one stand head and shoulders above the rest. Anyway, the original topic was D2 vs. Manticore on detecting relics in hot dirt. Dan showed us that some specific adjustments need to be made to M-core to make these targets stand out better vs. the default settings. D2 worked better "out of the box" but it was unclear if one coud be considered better than the other at the end of the day. Or what generally drives D2 performance in hot soil (which can best be described as a mixed bag, but isn't a bad choice if you don't have a PI). Which kind of backs up Steve's Maxim. Steve - If I am unfairly putting words in your mouth, let me know... Jeff's Gold Nugget Detector Test Data Plotted:

They are adjustable in all the modes on mine. As Dig said, you may not have been in M on those modes when you accessed the settings submenus.

Hey all, thanks all for the info on how non-ferrous targets behave in hot dirt. But the point I was trying to make was that on Dan's Manticore the target hadn't completely "turned" to ferrous yet, it was still flashing a non-ferrous TID so I was focused on how the ferrous limits settings needed to be adjusted to prevent masking of targets that are still able to generate a non-ferrous ID (but off center), while still providing some anti-falsing ability and was also thinking out loud as to whether ML could use mineralization levels to bias the ferrous ID component of the signal to give more "headroom" by biasing non-ferrous towards the centerline. Of course, ferrous would get biased as well so maybe a zero sum game, but whatever, it's a thought. As Steve said, the Deus 2 appears to ID non-ferrous at deeper depths in hot soil than the Nox but I have also encountered hot soil areas where the Nox and Legend can ID bullets deeper than Deus 2, so its really a mixed bag, but the D2 appears to me to have the upper hand under most hot dirt situations. I have exploited the capability but I am also spending a lot of hours with it in all types of conditions so I better understand its subtle audio cues. The Tarsacci does the best for a non-PI in terms of differentiating ferrous vs. non-ferrous at depth in hot dirt but it is relatively difficult for me to set up to best optimize this capability and has other drawbacks that make it less versatile when you are in areas where soil mineralization is not the overriding factor in target recovery success. I've detected Culpeper (actually more accurately the Brandy Station area) about as long as Andy (abenson) and perhaps Dan and it is like the iron man triathlon of relic detecting. Lots of relics were left in the ground because of the long-term winter encampments of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of troops who were doing nothing but trying to stave off cold, boredom, and illness for several months at a time while living in makeshift huts. The trash and inadvertently lost items of daily camp life are on every farm in that area and included firing ranges for target practice. This was in addition to the numerous battle engagements in the area, including the Battle of Brandy Station - the largest cavalry engagement of the Civil War and countless other small skirmishes. The Confederate and Union Armies actually camped near one another during the winters and units were spread out across the countryside, often encountering each other when foraging for food and timber. The problem is that the easy "VLF" pickings are mostly long gone because of the numerous individual and group hunts that have occurred over the past several years. Sometimes, an inaccessible field suddenly becomes accessible (and cleared of crop) and buttons and minie balls are vacuumed up by the detectorists. But you really are going after deep targets with a PI if you want to be successful. I demonstrated super hot conditions where you can detect a minie ball lying on the surface of the ground, but simply stepping on it with your boot to "bury" it, renders it invisible to your detector - not even an iron grunt. Yeah, its that bad. I started out there with an ATX and Deus. Did not find much with either first time out. Brandy Rock Farm was the site of my second or third DIV. Brandy Rock is now closed off to further relic detecting as the landowner has leased his land to the Historic Preservation Trust. This enables to farmer to still utilize his land for agriculture but the Trust does not permit detecting or artifact recovery without their authorization Anyway, at BR, I was able to recover a number of bullets in some "hot" areas with my Deus 1 simply due to the vast number of targets (mostly Minie balls) in the ground, several were brought close to the surface where I could detect them with my Deus. The ATX was just a beast. It worked but also "worked over" my shoulder. I used a tactic similar to Andy's to snag some relics in the back fields of Brandy Rock where there was a lot of old iron and other more recent steel junk (fabric staples used around saplings in a tree farm area). The PI machines either just blanked out (if they were using the GPX ferrous blanking filter) or the users were frustrated by digging staple after staple. It is in these conditions where you might get lucky using a vlf amongst the junk to capture a shallower relic that was passed over by the PI folks. I used a similar tactic at another Brandy Station farm by using my Deus 2 under roadside power lines where there were also hundreds of discarded aluminum cans and can-slaw > two factors that discouraged PI users from being effective or even trying. I dug a lot of cans but was rewarded with a Breast Plate and New York Regimental coat button that were hiding in that trash. So there are opportunities to be successful without a PI in hot dirt if you look for the right opportunities and conditions. It's not easy, takes perseverance, but the payoff can be great.

Of course which one is better is determined by ones needs: My take is that XTerra Pro and Vanquish are missing features that would benefit the other. I know I'm considered a detector snob, or whatever, but I consider the omissions as flaws, despite the great features both detectors bring to the table. And, yes, I know that when you add these features, you start moving the detectors to the Equinox low end, which obviates ML's intended hook and upsell strategy. But to me the omitted features just seem like random omissions, at least in the case of Vanquish and ground balance, that are almost essential features, done just to justify lower price points. But even without Multi-IQ, the Xterra appears to be the most well rounded value of the two and if I was given the choice to use either detector, it would probably be Xterra as it has most of the features of my preferred detector (Deus) before the Nox came along. Re: Vanquish. Besides the dated Ace-like control box styling that even Garrett abandoned for the Ace series when they released the Apex (love the overall look/feel of that detector BTW), the Vanquish was a great value detector with a great coil selection that was missing two and half key features. It used a fixed default ground balance reference that happened to be different depending the mode selected. Also, if you were in an EMI heavy environment, there was no provision to go to single frequency > even just one "middle of the road" selection like 10 or 15 khz would suffice and the ability to do a ground grab. Especially with the Multi-IQ DNA, ground grab should have been a no-brainer feature. Also, with no memory slots available, it would be great if the Vanquish would simply hold settings in non-volatile memory on power off (this is the "1/2" missing feature). To make Vanquish work in "all metal" in even mildly mineralized ground, required a custom discrimination pattern to knock out ground noise signals at -7 through -9 on each mode and that pattern disappeared on power off. Aggravating. Re: XTerra Pro - Looks like a great selectable-frequency detector and hopefully you CAN ground balance it, unlike the Vanquish. But the omission of at least one rudimentary SMF mode makes it great detector if it was priced just somewhere between the Nokta Simplex and Vanquish price points. If they somehow allowed the Vanquish coils to be used with the XTerra Pro, that would be a bonus. Because of this, if I need SMF/Multi-IQ (a lot of wet salt beach detecting) and was forced to go only with ML, I would probably just skip Vanquish and go with the Nox 700. Otherwise, if I didn't need SMF, it appears that XTerra would make a versatile selectable single frequency detector that might outgun the Deus 1 if the price is set at a realistic level. If I was allowed to choose any brand, Nokta Legend appears to be the best value around and combines the best of both these detectors at about the same price point. So to answer Steve's thead title question: Do we need another single frequency detector? I would say the answer is, not really. FWIW

Can someone point me to the wired metal detector that does not require batteries. I would like 3, please. I’ve thought of using ChatGPT and have posed a couple basic metal detecting questions. What’s interesting is that you can pose the same question multiple times and you will get a slightly differently worded answer each time.

Yes. It's all a matter of whether someone sees the opportunity and makes the investment to capture those who are not enamored of the baggage that comes along with wireless while still reaping a profit. Yes, D2 has great performance and XP is in the best position to emulate that with a wired platform. Not sure they have the motivation to try. It's been hard enough to get them to field a 10x5 coil for the D2. They would have to invest in the redesign, but it would not be a technical hurdle, just brute force engineering to repackage the platform. So it might be someone else. But who and when? That is not readily obvious to me. Maybe the post-Manticore machine will be a combination of the CTX, Manticore, and D2. As a "Stranger Things" fan they should call it the "Demogorgon"

You’re right, Chuck. You just have to “lower” the upper ferrous limits around the TIDs of interest (i.e., where the bullets show up and/or buttons, and/or nickels etc.). That is the bandaid or permanent fix if ML can’t figure out how to make deeper pure non-ferrous targets show up on the centerline in hot dirt.