Chase Goldman

Bob and I are killing it out there with our crippled Beta test D2’s. My fully updated Nox is collecting dust and the 900 has been a mostly disappointment so far for a version 2.0. Sorry this 0.71 beta is holding you back, Dave. But hard core beach hunting is not my wheelhouse, so I’m probably missing something. Anyway, I just hope they don’t break anything that works now once they do release it.

To a certain extent this IS what discrimination does on Deus 2. That's why I advocate use of discrimination (and highly reactive pitch audio) because it helps to differentiate ferrous from non-ferrous in the presence of both and helps to keep ferrous down averaging from affecting the non-ferrous TDI. It's not full proof but it does help and if you want to not hear the iron, simply turn off iron volume. If Manticore is indeed doing something similar, then that would be a definite feature enhancement beyond the Nox's discrimination implementation that peaks my interest in Manticore. Will be interested in how this unfolds.

Thank you. I appreciate you diving into these Betas and providing these reports, I know you have been on the front lines in this regard, so thank you again. I was coming at it from the perspective that I can't remember everyone's routine, so the report posts need to stand on their own to help the reader, especially for those readers who might be "tuning in" for the first time. Thanks for filling in those gaps with the additional info, answering my questions, and, most of all, not taking offense at all the questions. I probably overreacted to the multiple install thing but that was directed at Nokta - the update Beta's should simply be providing us with almost ready for prime time operating software and no cut corners or sloppiness should be tolerated in the install routines at this point. I know that they had issues early on with update program compatibility and I thought those had been addressed. And, while it is always possible for an update to hiccup during the install process, that situation should not result in an indicated "successful" update because checksums or other error detection methods should be used to identify a failed install and revert back to the previous SW configuration. And there never should be a situation where three installs are needed to get it right without flagging any errors. If the glitch results in the machine ending up in an unknown state due to an added feature or setting, then a factory reset should take care of that. As I said, hopefully, this is not indicative of sloppiness in the update routine and that it gets addressed. It's hard enough to get users through it when everything is working correctly.

Understand what you are saying, but it does not make sense at all that Nokta is doing that intentionally or even unintentionally. And if that really is the case - that's not a good reflection on Nokta's update utility configuration control. If the install utility is wonky, the last thing I want to do is to have to repeatedly install an update and risk bricking the machine on every install, requiring it to be sent in for service. So I'm just hoping the multiple install thing is not real. And recommending that users do that without Nokta acknowledging the issue is a risky proposition for that very reason. However, the factory reset before and after (which Nokta recommends BTW) makes sense and I wondered to myself whether you did that on the first install and that was really the difference maker. Did you test anything between each reset and install or just decided to do the 3 install/reset cycles and then test? Also, suggest for future reports you remove additional new "variables" when testing, comparing new installs to avoid red herrings and confusion. Adding the small coil for the first time while simultaneously installing new software and then reporting reduced depth just opens up questions about wherher the coil was the culprit like HerrUU commented above. It appears you did observe a performance issue with the install that was above and beyond just having the small coil installed based on the reinstall cycle. Would like to know if you are noticing any issues with the stock coil now that you think it is sorted with the LG24. This is probably coming across as hyper critical which is not my intention. Just trying to be constructive so that the reports can help readers better decide if they want to chance this latest beta update. Thanks for the report. Persinally, I'll probably just wait for the March Final release.

Likely they will have you pay for a new or refurbished housing/control pod (obviously the refurbished units are cheaper at ~$225 vs. $350 per this post. But don't know if those prices are still applicable or the post repair warranty terms). If they offer you a discount towards a new 900, I would seriously consider it depending on the offer. Hopefully, your coil-side connector is not damaged and you can remove the separated pins and salvage the coil. Good luck and please do report back on how it was remedied and the quality of customer service.

I had the T2 and the F75 and decided to hang on to the F75 because it was compatible with concentric coils while the T2 was not.

I have heard some positive comments regarding target separation with the Manticore, especially in thick iron. Deus has traditionally had a great rep in this regard as well. Would like folks who have used both machines to weigh in on this aspect of performance. Please provide relative context for any observations or assertions including modes, settings (especially recovery speed/reactivity and audio settings), soil conditions, target types/composition, and ferrous/non-fertous trash density. Thanks. Since M-core is limited to the 11" coil let's keep the discussion constrained to 11" or 9" coil comparisons. Leaving Nox and Legend out of the discussion for now to keep things simple and because they both have smaller elliptical coil options available that just complicates apples to apples comparisons. Have at it... I don't have a Manticore so I will mostly stay on the sidelines unless general logic or technical facts discrepancies are noted or I have questions.

Any pics?

That's interesting that you should say Deus Target Separation should be improved. Few criticize the D2's ability to separate targets but I also don't have a Manticore for comparison and have heard the Manticore separation ability mentioned by others. D2 is certainly not limited by processing speed as the default reactivity (Rx) setting in Fast is 3 out of 5. But there may be processing and/or audio enhancements that help Manticore in this regard. About the only thing holding D2 back is lack of a narrow elliptical accessory coil like that provided on the D1 to compliment the round stock coils. But that obviously won't be remedied by a system software update nor does that explain the Manticore comments because only the stock 11" coil is available for M-core right now. To a lesser extent, having the ability to operate at a top end FMF frequency higher than 40khz could be advantageous as well. Anyway, I really wanted to focus in on your statement that "only the FAST program performs almost well". The Fast program is just based on the 40khz FMF Sensitive program but with reactivity set to 3 (vice 2.5 on Sensitive) and it uses very reactive pitch audio > so it is geared to improve separation out of the box by the nature of its default Rx and audio settings. But you can improve D2 separation in just about any mode by increasing reactivity and using reactive pitch audio granted the 40khz top end of Sensitive/Fast FMF probably gives you a slight edge over the other base programs. Have you tried Pitch audio and setting Rx to 3 or higher on the other programs in your iron beds? Those settings (Rx 3 and Pitch audio) should make General (Default: 3 Tones; Rx 2.5; 40khz FMF), Park (Default: 3 Tones; Rx 2.5; 24 khz FMF), Deep HC (Default: 2 Tones; Rx 2, 14 khz FMF) and even mono (Default: 3 Tones; Rx 2.5; 45 khz max) similarly reactive in iron and if you set Rx even higher should improve target separation even further (though I recommend also turning down sensitivity in machine gun iron to prevent iron Target signals from overloading the front end and there is a point of diminishing returns because the target audio becomes very abbreviated). Also, Gold and Relic mode have different target processing and ferrous filter algorithms as well as utilizing VCO/Pitch audio which can make them perform well (from a target separation standpoint) in thick iron if you increase there comparatively low Default reactivity settings (2 and 1 respectively). Would appreciate more discussion on the target separation abilities of D2 vs. Manticore from others who own both detectors. Is it just due to default settings differences between M-Core and D2 or is there more to it? Might start a separate thread in the Detector Comparison forum...to limit M-core discussion in the D2 dedicated forum.

OK. Not XP but close enough as far as I'm concerned - Andy Sabisch (Author of the various editions of the Deus Handbook) states that the Mi6 is indeed VLF which supports the published 12 khz frequency spec. A little background: Early on XP was planning on using PI for the MI6 but switched to VLF because it was more compatible with their wireless system. That explains the pre-release discussion of PI and why some of us thought it was a PI. I stand corrected and now we have a reference point if this question comes up again. HTH

Understood. CPT you stated earlier your Mi6 manual states VLF technology, but I can’t find that in the Mi4/6 manual on the XP website - is the manual I linked below the same version as the one you have? https://www.xpmetaldetectors.com/uploads/files/document/manuel-mi-6-02092021_132.pdf

Gary Blackwell stated it was a PI during a Skype informational call during an XP instructional seminar prior to the Mi6 release when asked whether it would have target ID capabilities a la a SunRay probe (i.e., context: because it’s a PI would not be capable of that). I passed that info on to F350. There is admittedly no clear, explicit documented information from XP to refute or support that verbal claim, so perhaps it was in error or I heard it wrong, but until proven not to be the case, I personally trust Gary’s statement (or what I heard) and perhaps Gary will pop in to set the record straight. Latch on to that what you will and make people fall on their swords or whatever but not sure it matters in the grand scheme of things. All I know is that it is highly sensitive under a variety of extreme ground mineralization/salt conditions and keeps that sensitivity when properly initialized and balanced under those conditions. So it appears to emulate the performance of a PI as far as I’m concerned. SMH

Actually, I have heard just the opposite. Namely, generally Lower detector operating frequencies perform better in mineralized soil. Similar to reactivity/recovery speed, however, there probably is a sweet spot operating frequency range that works best.

Agree, but one thing though. D2 Relic mode is an IAR vs. Disc mode so you can only set IAR 0 through 5. As Dan mentioned, he went to one of the disc modes (Sens FT) and went negative disc. T2 is a classic. Dan - I take it you left it in default FT. Pitch (perhaps with some disc) and might (or might not) have made a slight difference on getting a signal, but wouldn't have changed the overall result with T2 taking the prize and really there is no point wasting time going through all the permutations on the D2. You are spot on regarding getting the right sweet spot on reactivity in that dirt. Maybe a little surprised D2 relic did so poorly. One thing with D2 relic is that with mineralized ground especially, 00 registers as a (non-ferrous) phantom pitch tone (but its just a ground feedback or micro ferrous response) even with IAR applied (which gets you iron volume for TIDs below 00). As a result, you have to notch out 00 to get rid of this annoying behavior. Again, this just helps with hearing non-phantom target signals but wouldn't affect overall performance. And again, wouldn't have likely changed your conclusions or the strength of response on the signals you were able to hear. Thanks for controlled run through. I'll be using the Axiom in Culpeper this year. But will be packing a D2 in my day pack. This will give me some ideas on different things to try with the D2 in the field as a change of pace backup machine. If I could "pack in" the T2, I would definitely consider it .

But to be clear though you can only do that for multi tones (i.e., 2, 3, 4, 5-tones) and pitch tones. You can’t assign frequencies in Full Tones (...yet). But that plus the PCM/Square audio waveform setting and equalizer should be good enough to help get close to emulating the tone pitch and quality of other detectors. Lots of audio customization with Iron Volume (loudness), Audio Response (dynamic target-depth-based audio adjustments), Multi-Tone pitch adjustments, PCM/Square based waveforms, and the Equalizer. Experiment to see what works for your brain and hearing. See p. 15 of the manual for tone pitch adjustment instructions. https://www.xpmetaldetectors.com/uploads/files/document/gb-rc-deusii.pdf

I can understand blowback because I can’t understand why you would even consider keeping the Manticore. jk Strick is right, anyone who thinks the D2, Manticore, Legend, or Equinox is head and shoulders above the others or does it all is either lying or delusional. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and are all top end performers and that is why many of us own detectors with overlapping but complimentary capabilities. Even the Apex, Vanquish, and Simplex hold their own because they either have some of the DNA of these other higher end detectors, have versatility, and/or simply have higher end/faster signal processing than what we’re considered the classics or flagships of the past such as the Deus, F75, T2, AT series, and Whites MXT and Spectras. CTX 3030 still does some things better than the Manticore (while the Manticore does a lot of things better than the 3030). The whole fallacy that a detector’s worth or performance is proven by a detectorist’s latest and greatest find is pervasive on these Social Media Groups and in a lot of other forums. I call it the Magic Wand effect and it biases peoples’ perspectives such that more important elements to successful detecting such as gaining experience, learning to use whatever machine you have to it’s fullest extent, and researching and gaining access to killer sites, get ignored. The social media singular focus on the toy/tool and the edited end eye candy result (pics of only the killer finds and not the trash and “mundane” stuff) is really doing a disservice to newer members of the hobby.

Actually, the rated capacity (run time in amp-hours) of a battery goes down at higher discharge currents. You can actually get more amp-hours (which translates into more run time) out of the bank + internal battery combo if you use it from the get go (beginning of the hunt) as a maintaining source of power to replace what is being sucked out of the internal battery by operating the detector. Once you crank the output current of the power bank to both re-charge the depleted internal battery and provide power for detector operation you will actually get fewer total ampere hours out of the bank than “rated capacity” which is typically based on a lower nominal output current where I^2 R power losses are lower. Steve’s approach will maximize total run time vs. connecting it once the internal battery is discharged.

This will work as a good charge maintainer for the internal battery or emergency source of power to extend run time. However, the mAH capacity rating of the Manticore battery is 6800 mAH. This powerbank will get you some additional run time, but if you want to be able to fully recharge the Manticore in the field or replicate the Manticore run time with the external bank, I recommend a power bank with a minimum capacity of 10,000 mAH (the additional capacity ensures you can fully recharge the internal battery accounting for the inevitable power efficiency losses that occur when recharging at high rates of current).

Correct. PD only works if both the source and load have USB C ports. Power delivery enables both the voltage and current supplied by the source to be consistent with the requirements of the load via handshaking between the load and source contained by the maximum wattage and current rating of the source. That means a 60W PD bank can theoretically supply 5 volts at 12 amps (but is typically limited to 3 to 5 A max to not exceed typical USB cable ratings) or 24 volts at 2.5 A, etc. The Manticore's proprietary USB cable has a USB A plug which limits the output typically to 5 VDC at 3 amps max. So any 10 to 15 watt, 5VDC USB power bank that can supply at least 2A will suffice.

I was looking forward to D pitch audio on the 900 but it seemed more chirpy (EMI susceptibility) so I have been just going with the hot hand D2 relic workhorse, instead. But I think I just needed to trust what the 900 was telling me and crank the sensitivity down further than I otherwise would have liked to on the 800 and let the 900 do its thing. Also, I think I too need to give all tones a go vs. D pitch, especially when trying to ferret out high conductors in high ferrous trash. Thanks for the tips Jeff and Andy.

Yes, I do advocate use of complimentary detectors to cover the bases because no one detector does it all and it justifies my psychopathic addiction to detecting hardware. My preference is, however, finding the one detector that does the most while doing the least to compromise performance outside of its wheelhouse. With Nox 800, it felt close, but I felt I still needed my Deus 1 for some situations (i.e. thick iron patches). Since D2, I feel I am there but the Nox or Legend still get used occasionally because of their robust ability to go deep with their elliptical 10x5 coils, which I like to use in target dense situations or when swinging in restricted space areas (e.g., corn stubble). Despite the purported "advantage" of single frequency detectors over selectable single frequency or SMF detectors on the specific, niche target types for which they are optimized, I really have not seen it play out in real world scenarios of coin shooting, beach hunting or relic detecting. I own an F75 and an MXT which were considered the cream of the crop in single frequency detectors and while I have hung on to them because they are classics, they really no longer have a role in my personal detecting arsenal. The primary advantage of SMF is salt balance on the beach maximizing stability at high sensitivity settings. Also, SMF when coupled with robust target signal processing gives a "flatter" signal response across most target types as you are not limited by single frequency resonances on specific target types. This saves time in having to go over a site multiple times with different single frequencies to catch low mid and high conductors. Vanquish is certainly an option, but it is missing some key basic features that I mentioned previously, such as adjustable ground balance and remembering settings on power off. And I am personally no fan of the retro head unit design (though the weight ergonomics and compactness are great). Also, with Legend giving so much more bang for the buck and versatility at a similar price point (Legend $499 vs. Vanquish 540 at $380) , if you are looking to just add SMF to your arsenal at a decent price point, that is the detector I would personally target. But for bare bones SMF with limitations and limited features (e.g., no wireless), a Vanquish 440 has basically the same solid SMF performance as the 550 at about $290. It's a decent park coin shooter and will run pretty stable in wet salt sand. HTH

For one thing, it's easier to optimize the hardware around a single frequency. For example, even though the coil is technically not an antenna it does have an optimal operating frequency that maximizes its effectiveness. You can also optimize filters and signal processing around single frequencies, etc. This means that you can make a detector really slay on a narrow range of target types (e g., high conductive coins or gold) or in certain environmental situations vs. the more versatile selectable frequency detector operating at the same frequency. But of course, you lose the versatility. It's the classic One Trick Pony vs. Jack of All Trades, Master of None debate.

Problem is the Nox 900 is not a Manticore.

Do you find the 900 TIDs to be stable vs. the 800?